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#252431 - 05/12/06 12:52 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
neither have I. crosstraining is our friend.

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#252432 - 05/12/06 01:41 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Crosstraining is good. I mean I'm not saying that kata doesn't contain groundfighting or that it does,but it doesn't.
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#252433 - 05/12/06 08:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nicely put Brian, outside of the tegumi aspect (mainly not passed to us in the UK) I dont see groundfighting in karate.

Of course I can 'make' it fit, no problem but that isnt what were talking about are we,

as stated I work 3 scenarios of ground fighting - all in the name of realistic self defence, just in case our 'karate' fails and we are taken down.

Outside of that I see little use for a ground game proper in self defence but thats another topic...........
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#252434 - 05/12/06 12:40 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So kata wasn't neccesairly designed with groundfighting, just stand up grappling, but can be used for groundfighting?
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#252435 - 05/12/06 02:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
When you say "we" I hope you are refering to yourself and people you know. When I was 14 and wrestled in high school I used my karate to assist in my training and utilized techniques I learned in karate to assist me in wrestling. This was in 1990 before UFC. My teacher in Florida taught groundfighting as a part of his karate curriculum, of course his understanding of karate was exceptional. At one time they said karate ONLY contained punching and kicking, now do you believe that. Motobu spoke of using your karate techniques to "grapple" with your opponent before MMA. Okinawan sumo is a system of grappling/wrestling that most okinawans learned and it greatly influenced their karate. I know of no grappling system that does not have groundwork, DO YOU? To tell you the truth due to my wrestling experience in high school I never knew you could grapple standing exclusively. Its not a good idea to go to the ground, but if you are there you better know what to do and how to get up. Goju may not have these things, I don't know. But I take BJJ and I know Naihanchi and I see the connection. Please, an experienced grappler knows there are things that can be done standing that can also be done on the ground like a switch or a granby roll. Kata is the same. May be if you learned an actual grappling art the connection would be more clear. The okinawans did, and I do as well.

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#252436 - 05/12/06 03:18 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I know you can use the switch standing(great move by the way) but how the heck do you do a standing granby roll?
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#252437 - 05/12/06 04:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Also remember that kata contains principle or concepts as well as techniques.

The individual techniques are less important than the concept or principles behind them.

Example. If I know how to use my hips for power generation, it doesn't matter what technique is at the end of that hip twist. Kick, punch,shuto,block...doesn't msatter. I have learned to use my hips and can now always apply that concept/principle.

Once you learn the concepts or principles, you can apply them to any range . Including fighting on the ground or standing grappling.

My very first submission ever in BJJ was executed in the standing position, after we clinched, using a principle and technique from Kata Wansu.

It's there, you just have to find it. But please DO NOT attempt to find it by laying on your back and practicing Naihanchi! That's just silly!

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#252438 - 05/12/06 04:22 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Exactly BuDoc, I'm talking about principles. I hope everyone here is past KinderKarate kata performance and is utilizing principles of kata in application. When I say Naihanchi I am speaking of its principles of movement, not its performance while lying on the ground. All basic ground fighting techs are found here and the kata can teach you how to utilize them.

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#252439 - 05/12/06 04:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Standing granby, which I learned at the Granby School of Wrestling in Virginia. You are standing with your opponent behind you and his arm is around your waist. Grab his wrist, step, and roll. It uses the same principles.

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#252440 - 05/12/06 05:07 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
tegumi isnt kata my friend.

I can of course see principles, similarities and anyone with a degree of skill can put together a semi decent ground game from stand up expierience (note not for tounaments, thats different), my point is that the ground game is not found in classical kata as I see it.

But very interesting views coming out on this so keep it coming !
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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