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#252401 - 05/10/06 09:36 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
shoshinkan,

I have a suggestion for your question, "One of my projects is to continue to work out effective methods of pinning without making myself immobile, far from groundfighting."

The most advanced version I've seen is done by a former instructor, Tristan Sutrisno http://www.silat-video.com/

In his Siliat he performs his pins kneeling on the arm with both legs, hands up ready to continue with another attacker.

The vcd's he offers demonstrate this as he takes down his opponents during their training.

From the aikido I studied with him, I was trained in a different manner, practicing the pins and then returing to one's feet for the next attack, but I consider his Siliat version superior, and a whole lot of work.

On the whole I see the ground as an appropriate place to merge into an attackers face, rather than a destination to move towards. But one has to consider what to do if they end up there, and yes pinning an opponent is a necessary skill too.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#252402 - 05/10/06 10:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Stromdragon

I think that part of the problem is that we are so far removed from the social structure of the times.

It seems that "back in the day" okinawan men and boys all grew up doing some kind of wrestling.
It was used in contest and for "fun" and even during festivals etc.
They were as familer with it as modern boys would be with soccor or baseball.

So there was little need to cover it again in their karate training---although so of course did.

Anyhow, its entirly possible that at various points in the kata, someone could have said "ok, now if you get them in that position, it would be an easy sweep/takedown."

Since both the student and the teacher would presumably have some personal experince in wrestling.
The transition would be pretty easy.

Just a theory.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#252403 - 05/10/06 11:16 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: cxt]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey that makes a lot of sense. If they already were well experienced in grappling and wrestling, no need to add to the kata. What was their wrestling methods like anyway?
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#252404 - 05/10/06 11:41 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Stormdragon

Nobody really knows.

Ideas range from something like sumo to pretty much a kind of judo--although they would not have called it that.
Its fact that something like that was done, and that it was done the same way that we would do baseball.

Just hard to find out specifics this far removed from the period.

My personal guess, and its just that A GUESS, is that most karate-ka walked into the dojo with at least some "hands on" experience in some form of wrestling.

Which made it much easier for them to see/use/apply wrestling tech in their kata training.

Another "level" if you will to the training.

You know "this is what your trying to do--BUT, you can also use it THIS way too."

That kind of thing.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#252405 - 05/10/06 12:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Thankyou for the pointer Victor,

Im having some fun 'testing' methods of pinning with the legs with my students, I get to pin them and they get to wiggle like worms..............

Its an interesting study and one that greatly emphasises the natural alignment principles seen in shorin ryu and shiatsu, that of 'leaning' on your partner. It also really starts to 'drill' home target areas, soft spots if you like 'kyusho' I aim to develop this aspect and add it into my tegumi practise study.

So little time and so much to do!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#252406 - 05/10/06 12:24 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
CXT and StormDragon,

The only serous account about Okinawan Sumo wrestling tradition was tha in Nagamine's book. There he described it as a competitive sport first studied as kids, and going to tournaments at town festivals.

To some extent some who weren't good at Sumo went into Karate.

In such an environment there is every reason to assume karate's development in part would have answer to Sumo technique. Logic might also suggest that with such a youth tradition available, the grappling aspects of karate were not a concern for new students, who already may have had some grounding.

This really isn't much different from Funakoshi developing his art for the Japanese in University, who likely all had judo experience in previous school. Why try and show karate's grappling potential to those already trained.

BTW C.W. Nicole's Moving Zen touched this that many of the JKA seniors were also Senior judo-ka, including the advice you really can't get good doing both at the same time (assuming this is for a beginner in training).

It would be like teaching karate to teens in a town where everyone participated in Middle School and HS wrestling. As beginners in karate is it worth showing how karate grappling answers work? Likely not, instead concentrate on what they don't have, and then when skill develops, begin the study of counters.

Why hasn't more been done to change how/why karate teaches grappling? Simply because in reality karate-ka never really had to continously face serious grapplers, so the need wasn't there to work on that focus.

Just some thoughts,
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#252407 - 05/10/06 01:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
interesting point Victor, I guess it makes sense, however at the same time, as we all know, real fighting very often maybe even the majority of the time results in some for of grappling and sport grappling would be enough for real streetfighting I would htink so I would htink they would at least include some anti grappling technues.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252408 - 05/10/06 02:27 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
As I understand it from Nagamine's book, the tegumi tradition was for the ordinary Okiniwans and karate/toudi was for the nobel class. But at young age, they all would wrestle to some extend. (remember your own youth ?)
There is however also dog boxing also referred to as ground figthing coming from Fuchow and had an influence in the karate/toudi traditions at Okinawa. As I understand it teaches tactics on how to fight when you are down and opponent is standing and how to get someone down by attacking the lower limbs. From what I have seen of it (and that's a book with pictures) it's a kicking and striking art more than a grappling art although most southern Chinese styles include chi-na as well.
We used to train this sometimes, one on the ground and the other standing, still remeber some locking/tripping techniques with the feet like putting one foot behind opponents anckle and the other pushing/kicking just below the knee or the other way around while rolling backwards.
But we don't teach/train it anymore.
Do not know where my teacher got these techniques from.

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#252409 - 05/10/06 02:32 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
StormDragon,

In my studies there are quite a few anti-grappling techniques in the Okinawan kata. In Isshinryu more specifically, as the founder didn't really teach the kata application potential to the Marines, he did share a series of self defense techniques (many of which were directly from kata) and they had specific anti-grappling counters, even counters against the mount position. Their focus of course was likely how to deal with some local 'judo' and or Shore Patrol controlling techniques <GRIN>.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#252410 - 05/10/06 02:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: CVV]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
CVV,

You are basically correct about the Southern Chinese Dog Boxing, being a kicking and striking art, mostly from the ground. I have that book and they really cover grounding as a lower body attacking tool. A few years ago I showed the book to my friend in Northern Eagle Claw, and from him all the same techniques are within Eagle Claw. The Chinese systems often share the same tools.

THe leg press/traps were part of the way I originally studied kicking from the ground in Isshinryu, and various other series came from my tjimande training. We teach them as a small subset of lower body technique for specific situations.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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