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#252391 - 05/10/06 01:36 AM Kata groundfighting
Stormdragon Offline
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What exactly is the groundfighting like in karate kata? I doubt it's much at all like BJJ so is it fighting against another person on the ground, or someone standing up? And is it more striking and dirty fighting or grappling with holds and locks and things?
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#252392 - 05/10/06 01:48 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
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There is no groundfighting in kata. Don't get confused.
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#252393 - 05/10/06 01:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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I've heard a lot of people on talk about getting their groundfighting out of kata. Also, if i'm not mistaken Iain Abernethy talks about groundfighting in kata. What do ya make uf that?
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#252394 - 05/10/06 01:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
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I make that he is a little confuckled about it.

Do you see people laying on the ground when doing kata?

Sure,there are some things that could potentially be done on the ground that will work.I do have my 'horizontal bunkai' ,but that is not the intention of kata IMHO.

I think most would agree with me.

We did have a poster for a while 'Sanchin' who argued that sanchin kata was farmer burns wrestling,lol.
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#252395 - 05/10/06 02:02 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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Well yeah, I mean I agree, kata doesn't have any real groundfighting from what I can tell, I wasj ust curious.

Was he serious about that whole snachin kata farmer burns wrestling thing? That's funny, sanchin kata can certainly have some locking techniques and grabs, but full wrestling, yeah right.
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#252396 - 05/10/06 02:17 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
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You can see in kata whatever your imagination will let you.

Some see wrist grappling to music and some see wrestling. I see dumb people.

I believe sanchin really is just a conditioning kata,but you could see some things in there if you want to,my instructor does.
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#252397 - 05/10/06 02:25 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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To each his own, and whatever works.
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#252398 - 05/10/06 04:01 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
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I see no little/groundfighting in kata, the nearest is when we drop to one knee.

However there are plenty of techniques that can work if were on the ground but thats just because the body is the body, on feet or on ground.

Need to remember karates possible 'origional' intention, that of defending oneself against and untrained agressor, the ground is not where we want to be therefore we train to not go to the ground.

this is greatly emphasised in the practise of tegumi, an aspect of the art that is rarely taught/understood. Of course with our locks we are happy to imobilise an opponent to the ground, just not get tied up there.
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#252399 - 05/10/06 08:11 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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In the Isshinryu version of Kusanku kata, there are obvious grounding techniques, where the opponent is downed and pinned in the process. There are several different methods used for grounding them too, depending on the stylistic understanding of the techniques.

Of course it depends on what one considers ground fighting.
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#252400 - 05/10/06 08:57 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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LOL Victor, of course im using the term in relation to rolling around on the floor in a continued fasion ala BJJ etc etc

One of my projects is to continue to work out effective methods of pinning without making myself immobile, far from groundfighting.
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#252401 - 05/10/06 09:36 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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shoshinkan,

I have a suggestion for your question, "One of my projects is to continue to work out effective methods of pinning without making myself immobile, far from groundfighting."

The most advanced version I've seen is done by a former instructor, Tristan Sutrisno http://www.silat-video.com/

In his Siliat he performs his pins kneeling on the arm with both legs, hands up ready to continue with another attacker.

The vcd's he offers demonstrate this as he takes down his opponents during their training.

From the aikido I studied with him, I was trained in a different manner, practicing the pins and then returing to one's feet for the next attack, but I consider his Siliat version superior, and a whole lot of work.

On the whole I see the ground as an appropriate place to merge into an attackers face, rather than a destination to move towards. But one has to consider what to do if they end up there, and yes pinning an opponent is a necessary skill too.
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#252402 - 05/10/06 10:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
cxt Offline
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Stromdragon

I think that part of the problem is that we are so far removed from the social structure of the times.

It seems that "back in the day" okinawan men and boys all grew up doing some kind of wrestling.
It was used in contest and for "fun" and even during festivals etc.
They were as familer with it as modern boys would be with soccor or baseball.

So there was little need to cover it again in their karate training---although so of course did.

Anyhow, its entirly possible that at various points in the kata, someone could have said "ok, now if you get them in that position, it would be an easy sweep/takedown."

Since both the student and the teacher would presumably have some personal experince in wrestling.
The transition would be pretty easy.

Just a theory.
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#252403 - 05/10/06 11:16 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: cxt]
Stormdragon Offline
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Hey that makes a lot of sense. If they already were well experienced in grappling and wrestling, no need to add to the kata. What was their wrestling methods like anyway?
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#252404 - 05/10/06 11:41 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
cxt Offline
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Stormdragon

Nobody really knows.

Ideas range from something like sumo to pretty much a kind of judo--although they would not have called it that.
Its fact that something like that was done, and that it was done the same way that we would do baseball.

Just hard to find out specifics this far removed from the period.

My personal guess, and its just that A GUESS, is that most karate-ka walked into the dojo with at least some "hands on" experience in some form of wrestling.

Which made it much easier for them to see/use/apply wrestling tech in their kata training.

Another "level" if you will to the training.

You know "this is what your trying to do--BUT, you can also use it THIS way too."

That kind of thing.
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#252405 - 05/10/06 12:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Thankyou for the pointer Victor,

Im having some fun 'testing' methods of pinning with the legs with my students, I get to pin them and they get to wiggle like worms..............

Its an interesting study and one that greatly emphasises the natural alignment principles seen in shorin ryu and shiatsu, that of 'leaning' on your partner. It also really starts to 'drill' home target areas, soft spots if you like 'kyusho' I aim to develop this aspect and add it into my tegumi practise study.

So little time and so much to do!
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#252406 - 05/10/06 12:24 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
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CXT and StormDragon,

The only serous account about Okinawan Sumo wrestling tradition was tha in Nagamine's book. There he described it as a competitive sport first studied as kids, and going to tournaments at town festivals.

To some extent some who weren't good at Sumo went into Karate.

In such an environment there is every reason to assume karate's development in part would have answer to Sumo technique. Logic might also suggest that with such a youth tradition available, the grappling aspects of karate were not a concern for new students, who already may have had some grounding.

This really isn't much different from Funakoshi developing his art for the Japanese in University, who likely all had judo experience in previous school. Why try and show karate's grappling potential to those already trained.

BTW C.W. Nicole's Moving Zen touched this that many of the JKA seniors were also Senior judo-ka, including the advice you really can't get good doing both at the same time (assuming this is for a beginner in training).

It would be like teaching karate to teens in a town where everyone participated in Middle School and HS wrestling. As beginners in karate is it worth showing how karate grappling answers work? Likely not, instead concentrate on what they don't have, and then when skill develops, begin the study of counters.

Why hasn't more been done to change how/why karate teaches grappling? Simply because in reality karate-ka never really had to continously face serious grapplers, so the need wasn't there to work on that focus.

Just some thoughts,
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#252407 - 05/10/06 01:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
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interesting point Victor, I guess it makes sense, however at the same time, as we all know, real fighting very often maybe even the majority of the time results in some for of grappling and sport grappling would be enough for real streetfighting I would htink so I would htink they would at least include some anti grappling technues.
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#252408 - 05/10/06 02:27 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
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As I understand it from Nagamine's book, the tegumi tradition was for the ordinary Okiniwans and karate/toudi was for the nobel class. But at young age, they all would wrestle to some extend. (remember your own youth ?)
There is however also dog boxing also referred to as ground figthing coming from Fuchow and had an influence in the karate/toudi traditions at Okinawa. As I understand it teaches tactics on how to fight when you are down and opponent is standing and how to get someone down by attacking the lower limbs. From what I have seen of it (and that's a book with pictures) it's a kicking and striking art more than a grappling art although most southern Chinese styles include chi-na as well.
We used to train this sometimes, one on the ground and the other standing, still remeber some locking/tripping techniques with the feet like putting one foot behind opponents anckle and the other pushing/kicking just below the knee or the other way around while rolling backwards.
But we don't teach/train it anymore.
Do not know where my teacher got these techniques from.

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#252409 - 05/10/06 02:32 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Victor Smith Offline
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StormDragon,

In my studies there are quite a few anti-grappling techniques in the Okinawan kata. In Isshinryu more specifically, as the founder didn't really teach the kata application potential to the Marines, he did share a series of self defense techniques (many of which were directly from kata) and they had specific anti-grappling counters, even counters against the mount position. Their focus of course was likely how to deal with some local 'judo' and or Shore Patrol controlling techniques <GRIN>.
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#252410 - 05/10/06 02:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: CVV]
Victor Smith Offline
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CVV,

You are basically correct about the Southern Chinese Dog Boxing, being a kicking and striking art, mostly from the ground. I have that book and they really cover grounding as a lower body attacking tool. A few years ago I showed the book to my friend in Northern Eagle Claw, and from him all the same techniques are within Eagle Claw. The Chinese systems often share the same tools.

THe leg press/traps were part of the way I originally studied kicking from the ground in Isshinryu, and various other series came from my tjimande training. We teach them as a small subset of lower body technique for specific situations.
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#252411 - 05/10/06 03:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
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Well that fits then, thanks.
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#252412 - 05/10/06 04:47 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
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as far as im aware the chi-na aspect of the classical kata does not deal with us going to ground, however it does deal with us putting our opponent down and locking them in place, ie if they get up or move to much - snap...........

I teach 3 'grappling' tactics at my dojo, one against the shoot, 1 against the mount, and one against being down and kicks coming in - its fair to assume that these are likely street scenarios if ones technique has failed - they are used when the other stuff fails, bit like the hard blocks debate this.

tegumi is very difficult to obtain good information on, however there is a rather interesting chinese art im looking into, but if we think of school boy wrestling in the playground then were not far off IMO.
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#252413 - 05/10/06 05:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Karate does have groundfighting techniques which are somewhat similar to those found in jiu jitsu. You must remember that Jiu Jitsu techniques of the Satsuma Clan is one of the arts that formed the orgininal karate. It is just the strategy that is different not the actual techniques. If I am mounted I will use similar techniques to reverse it. If someone has me in their guard I will pass it so I can pound them, lock them, or get back to my feet. Look at naihanchi for the great majority of karate's groundfighting methods. I heard of a tax collector, Teruya, I believe who was a teacher of Kosaku Matsumora who was trapped and pinned to the ground who used karate to "shake" his attackers off and eventually throw them off of the boat they were in. To say karate does not contain fighting in all ranges of combat is ignorance of its classical usages.

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#252414 - 05/10/06 06:23 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Quote:

Karate does have groundfighting techniques which are somewhat similar to those found in jiu jitsu. You must remember that Jiu Jitsu techniques of the Satsuma Clan is one of the arts that formed the orgininal karate. It is just the strategy that is different not the actual techniques. If I am mounted I will use similar techniques to reverse it. If someone has me in their guard I will pass it so I can pound them, lock them, or get back to my feet. Look at naihanchi for the great majority of karate's groundfighting methods. I heard of a tax collector, Teruya, I believe who was a teacher of Kosaku Matsumora who was trapped and pinned to the ground who used karate to "shake" his attackers off and eventually throw them off of the boat they were in. To say karate does not contain fighting in all ranges of combat is ignorance of its classical usages.




Medulanet,

You of course have your views, which I respect, however I firmly disagree on this - naihanchi is the prime delivery system of tuite (chin-na) and this is not about groundfighting, of course we can 'work' groundfighting back into kata of that im convinced - and fair point if thats what you do or have been passed.

Your point re the jujutsu is a good one, however I dont see that in the classical kata, perhaps drills that havent been passed on? Or perhaps not at all. jujutsu doesnt work kata as karate does as far as im aware?

The problem is its not just my view but also that of several significant Seniors of mine, im not being ignorant its just my belief at this point based on the expierience of people i know and respect, it could change.

So we should just agree to disagree and move on, we have some good chats afterall!

Re old masters shaking off several attackers on boats.....no comments.
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#252415 - 05/10/06 06:31 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
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I guess the fact of the matter is, kata can be used for just about anything you can come up with and goes as far as your imagination can take it, as long as the mehtods work. It's very gray, not a black and white, yes or no kind of thing. As I said before to each his own.
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#252416 - 05/10/06 06:33 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
CVV Offline
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Shoshinkan,

Nagamine writes a whole chapter on tegumi with legendary masters from the past and descibes some famous fights. There was more to it than a bit wrestling as I understand it. Looking at the tactics and techniques frm Sumo(only reference I got) it should be pretty advanced. Good luck on your research.

Your right about your assumption on the street scenarious in my opinion(been in the 3 situations). When multiple standing people start kicking while your on the ground though, best tactic is to protect face/throath/chest and groing and if possible try to turn so that they stand in each others way and then counter the first and get up. But you are going to get bruised (especially when they are wearing haevy boots). This tactic is part of the drunken man techniques I've seen. It is said that these drunken man forms also had an influence on the development of toudi/karate.

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#252417 - 05/10/06 06:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: CVV]
Stormdragon Offline
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It seems like everything has had an influence on Toudi/Karate.
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#252418 - 05/10/06 06:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
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Of course kata can be used for whatever we wish it to be.

however if we claim 'authenticity' then we need to try our best to research historical evidence and clues (difficult) along with the expierience of our Seniors and a great big dose of reality, this can lead us to far more proberble awnsers.

But ultimatly if one is happy with what their kata studies show then who am I to argue, I have been wrong about many things, many times!!!!!!!!!

But im happy
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#252419 - 05/10/06 07:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
BuDoc Offline
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I thimk it is all a question of intent.

When you look at a grappling specific art, lets say BJJ, your intent is to take someone down, wrap them up and hold or submitt them. Does tha mean that a BJJ practioner can not punch or kick and fight while standing? Of course not. But is intent is normall y the former.

Okinawan karate is a differnet intent. I want to get in close and use tuite or kyusho techniques. If I am taken down my intent is to be able to counter a hold, escap and get to my feet(not me in particular, I take BJJ but you get the idea) to fight while standing.

It's all where your focus lies.

Page
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#252420 - 05/10/06 07:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
Stormdragon Offline
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Excellent goal Budoc, the goal is the deciding factor in what techniques are used and the tactics and structure of the techniques. Thanks for the input.
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#252421 - 05/11/06 02:25 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
medulanet Offline
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BuDoc, I agree it is all about intent. That is why when I look at Okinawan karate I consider its orginal or classical intent as I have learned it. I have not learned it to be a civilian method of defense, but rather the art of the royal bodyguards. As such although striking is still the primary focus of the art as well as staying on your feet, there is also a great need for grappling in this role, and the classical kata fill this need. While there is no need to "pull guard" and fight from one's back, there is a need to escape from a mounted position, and use the guard to keep from getting pounded and escape. There is a need to know submissions to take prisoners if necessary to negotiate with an attacking force. There may be a need for hold downs to pin an attacker so the king and/or regents can escape from attackers. Again, there is a variety of grappling in karate. Funakoshi shows serveral grappling applications in a book he wrote in the twenties, and there was much that Funakoshi did not know, but he did know the basics, which includes several grappling applications. Now if funakoshi knew judo or jiu jitsu this may make sense, but he did not, he knew karate. Shoshinkan your are right we will have to agree to disagree, but I personally know of no fighting art past or present used in real combat that does not address all ranges of fighting.

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#252422 - 05/11/06 06:53 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

.....I personally know of no fighting art past or present used in real combat that does not address all ranges of fighting.





And whether it does so effectively is another thing entirely.



-John

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#252423 - 05/11/06 05:29 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:



And whether it does so effectively is another thing entirely.




And there is only one way to determine that.

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#252424 - 05/11/06 06:16 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Hi Medulanet,

you always make a good point and I have to say that I do see where you are coming from, perhaps the comments on emphasis is a more sensible awnser.

But my expierience is that the 'grappling' element of karate comes from 2 chief sources tegumi and tuite (chin-na), with the chin-na being 'locked' in the classical kata. my research of chin-na shows no groundfighting applications,

however I have to admit that there is likely a ground game as part of tegumi - I just havent found it or been shown it at this point so I dont see it, and it definatly isnt in classical kata.

So we are basically saying the same thing outside of the jujutsu element being significant/present in karate.

Good conversation this.

Re the art being for the royal guard or village style, different people see different things, I see karate as being suitiable and used by both,

however Te seems to have been reserved for the upper class, aristocrats - thats another thing that I dont see in karate kata as im told that whilst everything has similarities Te is distinctly different in movement from karate - an aikido like movement with significant historical military weapons emphasis.

But of course in the melting pot they all have significant cross over so its difficult at best to be 'certain'.
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#252425 - 05/11/06 09:00 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Shoshinkan, you are right, Te is different from karate, but te is one of the components of karate. The classical styles of karate have maintained this connection. One thing that helped me see the groundfighting connection in karate was to actually study BJJ and imagine Naihanchi technqiues both on my back and lying on an opponent on my stomach. I think it is very difficult to see this with no ground fighting training. I also believe that the tegumi/okinawan sumo had groundfighting techniques and most of the forefathers of karate had extensive wrestling/grappling training which complimented their karate. I also believe this training influenced their kata and is infused in the kata they passed on. However, there is one kata, Gojushiho, which I have learned is actually an entire family system of Udundi which is palace hand or the fighting techniques that the royal bodyguards used. Now this is true of the Matsubayashi version which Nagamine preserved. Is it true of the others I do not know. However, this kata contains several locking and restraining techniques for use standing and on the floor which are of course followed up with striking take your opponent out. I personally believe due to karate's connection with Kodokan Judo via Funakoshi and the fact that many early pioneers of karate studied Judo the reason most karateka do not practice or know of karate's grappling aspects. You don't need grappling from karate if you know judo. Karate's groundfighting is not as extensive as say BJJ, but the basics are there. Again I truly believe this is largely due to the Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu that is a part of karate. Along with the sword handling techniques comes the jiu jitsu of the Satsumas. It is this jiu jitsu along with some of the tegumi/okinawan sumo which make up okinawan karate's groundfighting. Again, it may not be present in all styles of okinawan karate, but Nagamine's style as we like to put it "has it all." I believe that there were different styles taught by Nagamine using the same kata. After World War II Nagamine saw the effect of extreme violence and wanted to use karate to promote peace, hence his karate do. However, there were some taught by Nagamine who were shown much of the true intent of the kata. However, he learned karate from Iha Kodatsu initially which contained Naihanchi of Uku Giko which is a lineage independent of Itosu. Wankan, Rohai, Wanshu, and Passai were that of Teruya. Then Kyan's Chinto and Yara Kusanku were taught by Kyan's most favored student Arakaki who died prematurely in the 1920's. These teachers of Nagamine were taught in Okinawan karate's original methods and Nagamine dedicated his life to preserving their karate. This he did and it is a complete art make no mistake.

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#252426 - 05/11/06 10:23 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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I have Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karatedo" and in it for kumite he only gives the most superficial and common applications which you could get at your average dojo or dojang. When he discusses the purposes of the various techniques in the book, he again gives only the most superificial and often impractical uses. Such as the high block, low block, or middle block as "blocks" or the reverse punch with a full chamber as just that, a punch while leaving oyur whole body open. Why is that?
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#252427 - 05/12/06 12:07 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Ed_Morris Offline
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excellent question. I don't doubt Nagamine, I just never understood why he never wrote anything more in-depth on the technical aspect of his Art. He did plenty of research in the History and Philosophy of Karate...if his books were meant to just touch on the most basic of basics, why include movements to advanced kata?

personally, I think he and other authors of his age (Mabuni, Funakoshi, Miyagi, ...) displayed one thing...but taught/practiced another.

I'm starting to see how everyone eventually ends up with 2 versions of each kata for example. There is the 'standard' kata, and the 'customized' kata. When you see/develop a customized kata, it reflects the personal interpretations (application) and many of the interpretations combined with eye movement, tempo, etc show more clearly the person's personal intenet within the movement.

when you DON'T want to show that, for whatever reason, you demonstrate the 'standard' version.

one good reason to teach a vanilla version is that you'd want everyone to find their own way and not just copy your interpretation...that searching is part of the process of learning at a deeper level. Non-kata styles have a similar learning by searching notion, althought the methods are different.

as far as groundfighting...I've just recently started to take a closer look at it. no doubt some kata principles are transferable to ranges, but I need a better feel for it before I can comment.

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#252428 - 05/12/06 12:08 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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A few things about Nagamine's book in regard to kumite. One look at the seven principles of kumite. Those are in fact the classical applications of karate. They may seem superficial because you do not understand them, but karate is actually very simple. In shorin ryu we train to shift our bodies out of the line of fire so we are in position to attack. To aid our attack we will hopefully have distracted and or immobilized our opponent to aid in our striking and introduce him/her to the ground very quickly. Second Nagamine's book is a rough guide and overview of okinawan karate for the beginner. It was never meant as an advanced teaching tool. For advanced instruction seek out a qualified instructor. Nagamine was a humanitarian who valued self improvement and peace over the brutal practice that okinawan karate once was. His book was the culmination of this life's work. His book is an oxymoron in a way. It depicts the classical kata of karate which contain brutal methods of self preservation and he uses them to propogate world peace and humanitarianism. Just because we want to learn 50 ways to destroy the human body does not mean that is what Nagamine wanted to teach. And just because Nagamine did not teach these finer points of Matsubayashi to most of his students doesn't mean that was not what he was originally taught.

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#252429 - 05/12/06 12:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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Great answers, thanks. I've been wondering about that for quite some time.
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#252430 - 05/12/06 12:40 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
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We really need to define what groundfighting is here. It's basically 'fighting on the ground'.
Does anyone here practice their kata on their back? LOL Wouldn't that look funny. I agree that alot of kata techniques can be used on the ground,but it's true that the bunkai you learn should adapt to any situation and are not for specific attacks. Does that mean that kata is groundfighting, come on now. Who are we kidding here? The two are not related at all in my mind. At least not until MMA competetions came along. Then all of a sudden...ooohhhhh kata has groundfighting in it!

Even if it is who here practices groundfighting in theri karate class? Besides me ofcourse. I haven't been to a karate school yet that did that.

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#252431 - 05/12/06 12:52 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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neither have I. crosstraining is our friend.

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#252432 - 05/12/06 01:41 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Crosstraining is good. I mean I'm not saying that kata doesn't contain groundfighting or that it does,but it doesn't.
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#252433 - 05/12/06 08:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
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Nicely put Brian, outside of the tegumi aspect (mainly not passed to us in the UK) I dont see groundfighting in karate.

Of course I can 'make' it fit, no problem but that isnt what were talking about are we,

as stated I work 3 scenarios of ground fighting - all in the name of realistic self defence, just in case our 'karate' fails and we are taken down.

Outside of that I see little use for a ground game proper in self defence but thats another topic...........
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#252434 - 05/12/06 12:40 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
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So kata wasn't neccesairly designed with groundfighting, just stand up grappling, but can be used for groundfighting?
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#252435 - 05/12/06 02:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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When you say "we" I hope you are refering to yourself and people you know. When I was 14 and wrestled in high school I used my karate to assist in my training and utilized techniques I learned in karate to assist me in wrestling. This was in 1990 before UFC. My teacher in Florida taught groundfighting as a part of his karate curriculum, of course his understanding of karate was exceptional. At one time they said karate ONLY contained punching and kicking, now do you believe that. Motobu spoke of using your karate techniques to "grapple" with your opponent before MMA. Okinawan sumo is a system of grappling/wrestling that most okinawans learned and it greatly influenced their karate. I know of no grappling system that does not have groundwork, DO YOU? To tell you the truth due to my wrestling experience in high school I never knew you could grapple standing exclusively. Its not a good idea to go to the ground, but if you are there you better know what to do and how to get up. Goju may not have these things, I don't know. But I take BJJ and I know Naihanchi and I see the connection. Please, an experienced grappler knows there are things that can be done standing that can also be done on the ground like a switch or a granby roll. Kata is the same. May be if you learned an actual grappling art the connection would be more clear. The okinawans did, and I do as well.

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#252436 - 05/12/06 03:18 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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I know you can use the switch standing(great move by the way) but how the heck do you do a standing granby roll?
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#252437 - 05/12/06 04:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
BuDoc Offline
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Also remember that kata contains principle or concepts as well as techniques.

The individual techniques are less important than the concept or principles behind them.

Example. If I know how to use my hips for power generation, it doesn't matter what technique is at the end of that hip twist. Kick, punch,shuto,block...doesn't msatter. I have learned to use my hips and can now always apply that concept/principle.

Once you learn the concepts or principles, you can apply them to any range . Including fighting on the ground or standing grappling.

My very first submission ever in BJJ was executed in the standing position, after we clinched, using a principle and technique from Kata Wansu.

It's there, you just have to find it. But please DO NOT attempt to find it by laying on your back and practicing Naihanchi! That's just silly!

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#252438 - 05/12/06 04:22 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
medulanet Offline
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Exactly BuDoc, I'm talking about principles. I hope everyone here is past KinderKarate kata performance and is utilizing principles of kata in application. When I say Naihanchi I am speaking of its principles of movement, not its performance while lying on the ground. All basic ground fighting techs are found here and the kata can teach you how to utilize them.

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#252439 - 05/12/06 04:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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Standing granby, which I learned at the Granby School of Wrestling in Virginia. You are standing with your opponent behind you and his arm is around your waist. Grab his wrist, step, and roll. It uses the same principles.

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#252440 - 05/12/06 05:07 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
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tegumi isnt kata my friend.

I can of course see principles, similarities and anyone with a degree of skill can put together a semi decent ground game from stand up expierience (note not for tounaments, thats different), my point is that the ground game is not found in classical kata as I see it.

But very interesting views coming out on this so keep it coming !
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#252441 - 05/12/06 05:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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medulanet,

BuDoc made this point.
Quote:

Once you learn the concepts or principles, you can apply them to any range . Including fighting on the ground or standing grappling.





That pretty much sums it up,but I haven't been to a karate school where they practice these princilpes on the ground.
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#252442 - 05/12/06 06:19 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
BuDoc Offline
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Brian, the truth is that you probably won't find many.

I have been studying these principles for over twenty years, but have only been applying them to ground fighting for a little over two years!

Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today.

Those of you that know me, know that I am a traditionalist. Sometimes I'm called a purist. Well, I'm also a realist.

Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. Do I beleive that BJJ players and wrestlers do ground fighting better than karateka? Absolutely!

There are many complete arts out there. There is also huge curriculums that take along time to learn or master that you don't always focus on everything, or only focus on the part that appeals to you.

You have to cross-train. In 2006, you just have to!

Closer to home. ALL doctors are trained to deliver babies and do sutures and remove an appendix. I do suturing every day, could deliver some babies if I have to, but trust me on this: You do not want me to take out your appendix! If everything was picture perfect and textbook, I might do a passable job. Any little thing were to go wrong, you'd probably die from what is considered by any surgeon to be the most simple procedure!

Until 2+ years ago, that was the same story with my ground fighting. Could I do it? sometime passably under the correct conditions. So I chose to specialize. Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. And when shown to me in the right light, I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction.

There you go. Let the stoning begin!

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#252443 - 05/12/06 07:31 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
Stormdragon Offline
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Very very interesting posts. I see that the goals of groundfighting as utilized in karate and tegumi would be very different from that of BJJ. In BJJ your goal is to actively go to the ground and look for a submisssion while rolling around and keeping within the rules. Karate groundfighting I think would be more oriented to downing hte opponent and maintain your standing position, or if you go to ground, fighting as hard as you can to get up and into a strong fighting position with the use of dirty tactics, pressure point fighting, bone breaks and all around mean fighting techniques. The goal is to avoid the ground at all costs and not stay there if you go down, and part of that is not trying to hold the opponent down while on the ground but to get up and finish them standing.
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#252444 - 05/12/06 08:57 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
medulanet Offline
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Who do you train with in Gracie Jiu Jitsu BuDoc? I currently train with a couple of Relson Gracie's brown belts.

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#252445 - 05/13/06 03:08 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
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top post Storm, very nicely put my friend.

Karate is designed for self defence, logically the ground is just not where we want to be as it takes away our prime weapon - mobility.

Budoc and Medulanet - I respect you both as karateka but my question is why take BJJ over training the grappling that already exsists in karate????? Just interested its not a trick question.
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#252446 - 05/13/06 01:41 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
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I think the reason for that shoshin is because it helps you to learn the mechanics of groundfighting and so oyu can then see similar techniques within the kata as now you are familiar with that aspec of combat. It's sort of like cross referencing I guess.
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#252447 - 05/13/06 03:04 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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As I was instructed on the basics of grappling in karate most of my instruction lacked the physical training and finer points of wrestling/grappling necessary to be effective against a skilled submission grappler using my wrestling skills. Even though I can do pretty good due to my wrestling background wrestling on the street with submissions allowed leaves a lot of holes in folk style(american high school and college) wrestling. Although there are submissions and groundfighting in kata the best way to learn such is to receive instructions from the experts. It takes more than just techniques to fight. In addition I always wanted to get into submission wrestling even before I knew anything about "real" karate. This is my chance to have some fun, tap some people out, and resurrect a not so old man's teenage dreams.

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#252448 - 05/13/06 03:37 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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One thing to keep in mind though is that the goals, and mechanics of GJJ and karate grappling is quite different. Just like with wrestling vs. BJJ, which causes me trouble sometimes. Different rules and targets and stuff.
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#252449 - 05/13/06 07:09 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Fair enough and nicely put Medulanet, not my cup of T but whatever floats your boat friend!
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#252450 - 05/13/06 07:26 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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Stormdragon, strategies of fighting different yes, but jointlocking is jointlocking, wrestling ability is wrestling ability, leverage is leverage, etc. Now yes there are differences between the techniques of uchinandi and bjj/gjj, but there are basic skills that are common to all froms of grappling. This is where the emphasis of my study lies. In addition by training against other grapplers and the best submission guys in the game my karate will be that much stronger.

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#252451 - 05/13/06 07:26 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
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So if you do not have a background in grappling, or even if you do, how do you go about the process of unlocking the grappling and locking techniques within the kata?
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#252452 - 05/13/06 07:29 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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Let me say you NEED grappling experience/training to do any type of truly effective grappling.

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#252453 - 05/13/06 07:37 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
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Well that's good because I have 2 years of high school wrestling experience and some BJJ experience. What I want to know is how to extract the techniques out of kata.
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#252454 - 05/13/06 08:42 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

What I want to know is how to extract the techniques out of kata.




Time,and a good instructor.
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#252455 - 05/13/06 09:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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Yeah, I guess. And lot's of research.
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#252456 - 05/14/06 08:27 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
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Tek, start with very simple applications - then 'work' them so they are effective against street styled attack,

single techniques are fine to begin with, then add a technique etc etc (from the kata sequence).

This will give you a good base to build from, good luck with it.
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#252457 - 05/14/06 09:31 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
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tek?
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#252458 - 05/14/06 02:45 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Thanks for the advice, I'll get right to work.
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#252459 - 03/27/08 12:55 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Bump for going round and round again!!




Edited by BrianS (03/27/08 12:57 AM)
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#252460 - 03/27/08 01:13 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I've heard a lot of people on talk about getting their groundfighting out of kata. Also, if i'm not mistaken Iain Abernethy talks about groundfighting in kata. What do ya make uf that?




No, he doesn't say that...

I will quote him if you'd like:

"no groundfighting holds appear within the katas, but knowledge of them is important if you wish to be able to apply the kata's methods whilst on the floor"

Does that sound like he's saying he "gets his groundfighting from kata"?

Taking classical kata of Okinawan karate and trying to graft groundfighting apps onto it kind of silly. Just train some groundfighting and integrate it with your Karate, it will fit just fine. Abernethy's books are great for that, he has all the simple holds and such you need to work.

Far as extracting techniques you should really find a good instructor, barring that here's a book by my teacher on just that subject:

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/the_way_of_kata

I've also heard Abernthy's bunkai-jutsu books are good, but I don't own them.

Really there is a ton of good literature on the subject these days, however it's no substitute for a good Karate teacher.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/27/08 01:18 AM)

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#252461 - 03/27/08 07:02 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.

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#252462 - 03/27/08 03:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually JKogas, the way most people view kata and demonstrate it they are only showing the "snapshot" version of it where the real karate is in the transitions against resistance and to the ending postures or poses.

Oh, by the way, how's the ballet going? Strange though, it doesn't seem to fit you, but to each his own.
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#252463 - 03/27/08 07:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Nice medulanet, very nice. Coming from someone who still can't prove a darn thing about his position on the subject, yet still gets his panties in a wad if you say different, nice.

Now John, Mickey Mouse has always been in the clouds, even before Mickey Mouse existed!! The Okinawans had little cartoon figures for the little ones dammit!!!!!!!

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#252464 - 03/27/08 10:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.




What BS.

What a weak and pathetic attempt to bolster the positive feelings you have towards your own fetishes. (Kata is evil and must be wiped from the face of the earth and any counter moves to grappling takedowns are heresy).

Kata is good enough for Bas Rutten. Mo Smith never did it. Good kata is effecitve. Each to his own. Capisce?
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#252465 - 03/28/08 02:00 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Nice medulanet, very nice. Coming from someone who still can't prove a darn thing about his position on the subject, yet still gets his panties in a wad if you say different, nice.

Now John, Mickey Mouse has always been in the clouds, even before Mickey Mouse existed!! The Okinawans had little cartoon figures for the little ones dammit!!!!!!!






BrianS, I know you like fantisizing about my underwear, but a public forum is not an appropriate place to do so.
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#252466 - 03/28/08 05:59 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: North Carolina
medulanet wrote
Quote:

Actually JKogas, the way most people view kata and demonstrate it they are only showing the "snapshot" version of it where the real karate is in the transitions against resistance and to the ending postures or poses.

Oh, by the way, how's the ballet going? Strange though, it doesn't seem to fit you, but to each his own.






Mark Hil wrote

Quote:


What BS.

What a weak and pathetic attempt to bolster the positive feelings you have towards your own fetishes. (Kata is evil and must be wiped from the face of the earth and any counter moves to grappling takedowns are heresy).

Kata is good enough for Bas Rutten. Mo Smith never did it. Good kata is effecitve. Each to his own. Capisce?





Both of you guys have missed the point. In a nutshell, I was saying that kata is about as effective a tool for skill development as is Ballet. They are both forms of dance. Yes that is my opinion, which is inarguable.

However, Mark Hill, I’ve never once stipulated that kata should be wiped from the earth. That’s your nonsense. But I wouldn’t lose a minute of sleep if it were. Of course everyone has the freedom to choose how they train. Isn’t that great? Just like I have the freedom to express my point of view. You’ve heard it before and will LONG continue to hear it, hallelujah and amen to that.

If you guys like kata, that doesn’t bother me one iota. You guys can do kata until you’re BLUE in the face for all I care. Knock yourselves out….you won’t be knocking anyone else out (in the process).

-John

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#252467 - 03/28/08 06:38 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
All my comments come are my thoughts from my studies thus far.

Quote:

I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.




Hi John.

You have your excellent and indeed valid points on training. But if I am correct and the origins of ti are correct then it looks like you have been using principles/techniques that are in kata/ hidden in dance forms/ movements in your training.

You might not like to hear this or it makes you feel realy bad but it it the way it is.

Can I suggest you think of it this way.
You have learned to fight in a specific way, and your more than likely good. But you cant do it forever. Age comes to us all. Now in this day and age we have video. In days gone
by they didint. So because they either had to or just did do it was recorded in kata/ dance form. Silat does the same thing.

So realy you are doing techiques found in kata. Except you dont do the solo form.

Some Some of the proof that leads to this thought process by the way has nothing to do with karate or speculation or written works( although written works do play a part). It is there.





Mark Hill
What BS.

What a weak and pathetic attempt to bolster the positive feelings you have towards your own fetishes. (Kata is evil and must be wiped from the face of the earth and any counter moves to grappling takedowns are heresy).




I think your wrong in your assumption. If people didint dispute things like John does then everybody would just follow someones say so.
Which is also wrong but the way certain strains of karate were taught, and in the main it was taught incorrectly.
No analytical thought needs to be given if a person just does as they are told.

Brian.
Quote:


Nice medulanet, very nice. Coming from someone who still can't prove a darn thing about his position on the subject, yet still gets his panties in a wad if you say different, nice.






By the nature of his training in wrestling gives him the knowledge to see what he does in kata. Doubtfull if early Okinawans were using cartoons. They would be to busy surviving.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/28/08 07:10 AM)

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#252468 - 03/28/08 07:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.



The argument is valid and the humor is much needed in this section.

if we take away the 'rosetta stone'-like status/assumption that many put on kata and just look at it for what it is: forms of unknown origin...then I think they do serve a training purpose.
They inspire to try something (in 2-person work) which may not have occurred to the person otherwise. Thats a double-edged sword though, since it's possible to imagine impractical application and continue training it as theory. On the plus side, it opens up the mind enough to explore other arts....a student learning groundfighting/judo/boxing/JJ/etc from kata principles is likely doing so as a result of their predicessor's crosstraining. since they weren't there to witness the added influence, as far as they know and believe, "it's always been in the kata".
some have crosstrained in groundfighting arts since the 1990's - is it any wonder they wish to argue that "its always been in the kata"? plucking out statements from past masters saying they backyard-wrestled as kids is the basis of argument for explaining why, for example, karateka now see reverse-kimoras in kata?

It's not giving credit where it's due. instead, for some reason, people place kata on a pedestal which is invisibly propped up by other arts. They wish to create the illusion that the skill came from working the kata, when much more likely, the skill was built by outside influence and applied to kata after the fact.

some see Micky-Mouse in the cloud expressing joy, some see Micky applying a full nelson to an invisible opponent.




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#252469 - 03/28/08 11:29 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jude -

Quote:

But if I am correct and the origins of ti are correct then it looks like you have been using principles/techniques that are in kata/ hidden in dance forms/ movements in your training.




Quote:

So realy you are doing techiques found in kata. Except you dont do the solo form.




Man, I was trying to stay out of this. But these comments are really twisting reality. Fighting techniques did not come from kata - kata came from fighting techniques. The fact that there are techniques in kata has no relevance to JKogas' training at all. Fighting principles may be in kata, but that is not where they came from. Fighting existed long before kata.

These type of "you are doing kata but don't realize it" comments are poor logic at best.
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#252470 - 03/28/08 11:51 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Well said Ed.

I don't imagine many folks read the thread in it's entirty, I mean befor it reared it ugly head again. I think the "money" post came from BuDoc...


Quote:

Brian, the truth is that you probably won't find many.

I have been studying these principles for over twenty years, but have only been applying them to ground fighting for a little over two years!

Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today.

Those of you that know me, know that I am a traditionalist. Sometimes I'm called a purist. Well, I'm also a realist.

Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. Do I beleive that BJJ players and wrestlers do ground fighting better than karateka? Absolutely!

There are many complete arts out there. There is also huge curriculums that take along time to learn or master that you don't always focus on everything, or only focus on the part that appeals to you.

You have to cross-train. In 2006, you just have to!

Closer to home. ALL doctors are trained to deliver babies and do sutures and remove an appendix. I do suturing every day, could deliver some babies if I have to, but trust me on this: You do not want me to take out your appendix! If everything was picture perfect and textbook, I might do a passable job. Any little thing were to go wrong, you'd probably die from what is considered by any surgeon to be the most simple procedure!

Until 2+ years ago, that was the same story with my ground fighting. Could I do it? sometime passably under the correct conditions. So I chose to specialize. Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. And when shown to me in the right light, I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction.





An honest sincere long termtraditional Karateka with an open mind exploring new venues, adding new competencies, recognizing similar principles. He was able to doit without adjendas or misscrediting while respecting both traditions and embracing reality.

BOOM! There it is.

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#252471 - 03/28/08 02:33 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

An honest sincere long termtraditional Karateka with an open mind exploring new venues, adding new competencies, recognizing similar principles. He was able to doit without adjendas or misscrediting while respecting both traditions and embracing reality.

BOOM! There it is.




No oldman you got it wrong. This quote is obviously from someone who is trying to make money by claiming he had the principles and concepts all along. Can't you see his trick. M.J., B.S., E.M., and Fo' Sho' nuff put me on to the game. There are NO principles for ground fighting contained in the kata. Period. I just wanted to get this in before they tore BuDoc a new one. He really doesn't post here anymore, but I guess they missed this one. Oh, maybe he used the term crosstraining so its okay. Or maybe its something else, I really don't know. All I know is there is no way there were ever any concepts or principles for ground fighting in karate or kata. Right guys?
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#252472 - 03/28/08 02:59 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Sounds like someone needs a hug!
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#252473 - 03/28/08 03:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Med,
I should probably explain my comment...

Quote:

BOOM! There it is.




I did not mean to imply that his post was a smoking gun that might put an end to the debates. What I meant to convey is that I think his post is a manifestaion an a reflection of a very healthy person and approach. The best evidence of that perhaps, being that he no longer spends time here.

His approach was Rational, objective, and flexible. He was traditional and innovative at the same time. He did not have to defend a position. He just did what he did and I'm sure to this day continues to grow and prosper.

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#252474 - 03/28/08 03:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med,
I should probably explain my comment...

Quote:

BOOM! There it is.




I did not mean to imply that his post was a smoking gun that might put an end to the debates. What I meant to convey is that I think his post is a manifestaion an a reflection of a very healthy person and approach. The best evidence of that perhaps, being that he no longer spends time here.

His approach was Rational, objective, and flexible. He was traditional and innovative at the same time. He did not have to defend a position. He just did what he did and I'm sure to this day continues to grow and prosper.




Yes, but he was never critisized for his statements either. And I believe that is the point. He is innovative and others are making stuff up or just delusional. Odd, don't you think?

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#252475 - 03/28/08 04:53 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
med,
I imagine that the primary reason he was not critisized was tha he was not contentious. As he said he was a traditional guy and his experience in BJJ affirmed and informed his previous practice. As a person who has also had the same type of epiphanies I think I understand what he is saying and I'm sure some others do to.

In hindsight the use of the word innovative was not a good choice. It would be more accurate to say that he he was open to new experience. It was novel, or new to him but he never presented it as innovation.

To see similarities in different experiences is not dilusional.

When my wife and I lived in Chicago we commuted together by train. To kill time we played a game called "Celebrity Train". The goal of the game was to find other commuters that looked like celebrities. The only way you could get a point was if the other person playing agreed that the person looked like the celebrity you named. It might be "Bono" or "Abe Vagoda" or 'Merideth Viera"
it really doesnt matter. The point is I might think a person looked like "Bobby MacFerron" if my wife did not agree that the commuter looked like Bobby MacFerron so she would not give me the point. On one commute we could have argued a point for a lomg time (we both like to win) but our agruement was cut short when the gentleman introduced himself to us and it was "Bobby MacFerron".

If you ask her today she will still tell you it was not him and she thinks I'm crazy. It is easier for me to admit I'm crazy than it is for my wife to admit she was not right.
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#252476 - 03/28/08 05:35 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

med,
I imagine that the primary reason he was not critisized was tha he was not contentious.




Yes, but wouldn't that make this a popularity contest and not an objective marital arts discussion board? But ultimately I guess that is what this is with a little annonymous mob mentality added in for good measure. I have always had conflict in my life and in fact I enjoy it so it doesn't really bother me. I like to post interesting observations from time to time as well. Trust me, this is nothing I haven't seen nor heard before. For me the ultimate test is making the stuff you do work. For some it is making others conform to their way of seeing and doing things. I guess its a matter of priorities.

Quote:

In hindsight the use of the word innovative was not a good choice. It would be more accurate to say that he he was open to new experience. It was novel, or new to him but he never presented it as innovation.




Its usually not how the material is presented, but how other people's preconcieved notions about the poster causes them to interpret the material. Anything from screen name to previous posts to region of origin can cause these premature judgements. And it is usually these judgements which drive responses, not always the contect of the post. Again, it is still fact that BuDoc was not called on many of the things I am. And that's okay. Its really not even about if he and I are taking the same approach to our training. But the fact is both he and I have stated that karate training engrains concepts and principles for good grappling in a karateka. That included ground grappling. I bet you if asked he could give grappling apps that could be used on the ground straight from kata. But then again, BuDoc is a good guy and I am not, right? So because he is a good guy I will bare the burden. I'm good at that kind of stuff.

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#252477 - 03/28/08 05:40 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Lol you are overanalyzing Med, no one's trying to make you conform to anything, questions of martial arts history are a different realm than actual training.

That's what this is, a question of what is actually in the historical record, not an argument about training methods or efficacy.

You are no less guilty of wanting us to conform to your ideas.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 05:44 PM)

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#252478 - 03/28/08 05:45 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I guess the difference between the attitude of posts is his honesty of saying that he saw principles a different way in kata after he was trained in BJJ. ...as oppossed to giving the impression that the principles were learned from kata which were handed down untainted from master to master for centuries right to you.

one attitude is sharing honest perception and gives credit where it's due; the other tries too hard to legitimize anachronistic systems by gaining outside skill, and then attributing that awareness/skill to the traditional system, in the hopes of proving their point of "it was always there".

to take John's Micky-cloud analogy: you won't ever see a cloud in the shape of an art sculpture of which you have never seen before - but then spend the day in an art gallery and you won't be able to see anything else but cloud sculptures the next day when you look up.

did the cloud inspire you to see an art sculpure on it's own...or was it by having spent the day at an art gallery?

see what I mean?

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#252479 - 03/28/08 06:00 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Lol you are overanalyzing Med, no one's trying to make you conform to anything, questions of martial arts history are a different realm than actual training.




Are you sure? In fact, I can't even make a post without someone who was not even in the conversation jumping in and begin a rant based on the fact that I do not share his same view point.

Quote:

That's what this is, a question of what is actually in the historical record, not an argument about training methods or efficacy.




Zach, that's the funny thing about logic, not finding something in an incomplete historical record does not prove something false. Now, if it was written there is no ground fighting in karate or kata, then that's one thing. But to state that since you have never seen it nor been taught it nor heard of it mentioned doesn't prove anything except maybe you should dig deeper.
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#252480 - 03/28/08 06:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Zach, that's the funny thing about logic, not finding something in an incomplete historical record does not prove something false. Now, if it was written there is no ground fighting in karate or kata, then that's one thing. But to state that since you have never seen it nor been taught it nor heard of it mentioned doesn't prove anything except maybe you should dig deeper.




No, the burden of proof is on you guys making the claim, as with anything else we are debating.

No one has said there was no capoeira in Karate kata either, doesn't mean it's there.

As those on the other side have made no real claim, we don't need to "prove" anything, you guys do.

You brought up the groundfighting thing man, and so far the historical record is scant in this department.

I have never seen anywhere a photo or much description (minus the iffy stuff you guys have thrown out there as a body of evidence- slim to say the least) of oldschool Karateka doing something like grappling for position and applying a RNC or some such on the ground, unless they were crosstraining Judo. Doesn't mean they didn't know how, but it does seem to indicate that as faras we know it was at best a paralell practice to Karate, not directly a part of it.

Why would I be convinced? If in the future alot of evidence comes out to shake things up i'll certainly entertain changing my mind, but so far all you have is a few quotes that don't directly address the place of tegumi with Karate training anyway, not enough to build a case on.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 06:18 PM)

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#252481 - 03/28/08 06:17 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Zach, why would I possibly NEED to prove anything to anyone here? I like to discuss karate and give some insight into why I do what I do and train the way I train. I also like to share information with others. Why do you feel the need to obtain "proof" from me as to why I do what I do?
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#252482 - 03/28/08 06:22 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I guess the difference between the attitude of posts is his honesty of saying that he saw principles a different way in kata after he was trained in BJJ. ...as oppossed to giving the impression that the principles were learned from kata which were handed down untainted from master to master for centuries right to you.




That's just it Ed, when did I say this. The fact is I didn't. I have always maintained that my wrestling experience at 14 allowed me to see the similarites between the karate I was studying and the grappling I was learning. I even said that to understand them it was necessary to study grappling. The difference is I began training karate in February of 1990 and I began wrestling in November of 1990. Therefore my karate and grappling evolved together. So I have always seen the principles they shared. I then discussed my training in no gi bjj for a brief time which confirmed some of the things I had been working on and taught me some new stuff. The thing is this is not an integration of bjj with karate. This is understanding the underlying principles of using specific tools to fight and then applying them. Where have I stated otherwise Ed? Again, this is another example of perceptions coloring an individual's ability to objectively analyze what they have written.

Quote:

one attitude is sharing honest perception and gives credit where it's due; the other tries too hard to legitimize anachronistic systems by gaining outside skill, and then attributing that awareness/skill to the traditional system, in the hopes of proving their point of "it was always there".




Again Ed, where have I stated that I achieved skill only through karate training. I have always said my combative skill was gained through a variety of places including karate, wrestling, football, etc. I just like to give credit where credit is due. How about this. What if I said, " Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. I have been studying these principles for over twenty years. Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today. I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction."
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#252483 - 03/28/08 06:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Zach, why would I possibly NEED to prove anything to anyone here? I like to discuss karate and give some insight into why I do what I do and train the way I train. I also like to share information with others. Why do you feel the need to obtain "proof" from me as to why I do what I do?




I don't know...why do you feel the need to convince us of your opinions about groundfighting in kata?

Don't turn this around as if me or anyone else is attacking you, I don't think anyone has done that.

If you don't care about it at all then don't post about groundfighting in kata. I have great respect for the way you train, I just think if you're going to post about things like groundfighting in kata that you should at least try to qualify it.

Again I don't think anyone has attacked you in any way, why the hostility?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 06:30 PM)

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#252484 - 03/28/08 06:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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medulant,

You made the claims a looong time ago. jood agrees and says it's easy to prove. No one has done so yet.

The burden of proof is on you guys. If you don't want to prove it then how can you argue your point?
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#252485 - 03/28/08 07:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Are you sure? In fact, I can't even make a post without someone who was not even in the conversation jumping in and begin a rant based on the fact that I do not share his same view point.




Med -

I do apologize if I come across harsh sometimes. I am a recovering a$$hole, with the understanding that I will never be completely cured from being an a$$hole.

I would like to reinforce Zach's point earlier about disagreeing with the historical points, as opposed to the training itself. From what I have read, you seem like a well-informed and able martial artist. Your training sounds like good stuff, and I would sincerely and with no sarcasm, be interested to see some video clips. I imagine that your training and mine has more similarities than differences.

Regardless of whether I agree with the kata/groundfighting connection.
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#252486 - 03/28/08 07:58 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

I would like to reinforce Zach's point earlier about disagreeing with the historical points, as opposed to the training itself. From what I have read, you seem like a well-informed and able martial artist. Your training sounds like good stuff, and I would sincerely and with no sarcasm, be interested to see some video clips. I imagine that your training and mine has more similarities than differences.





I second that.
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#252487 - 03/28/08 11:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

medulant,

You made the claims a looong time ago. jood agrees and says it's easy to prove. No one has done so yet.

The burden of proof is on you guys. If you don't want to prove it then how can you argue your point?




For me the proof is in actual application and sound training methods. I research history of karate for fun, but all that goes out the window in application. I never ask my teacher to prove that the application they teach me or technique goes back x number of years. If it works and fits into the training paradigm that they are teaching I take their word for it. Mainly because that is the way okinawan karate was mostly transmited. That is the way I have always been trained. In fact, my teacher laughs at me for coming on here and dropping this stuff on you guys. He said I should use the time for training. I think he might be right.
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#252488 - 03/28/08 11:27 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

What if I said, " Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. I have been studying these principles for over twenty years. Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today. I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction."



and I'd say, "fair enough, glad you are training well."

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#252489 - 03/28/08 11:41 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What if I said, " Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. I have been studying these principles for over twenty years. Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today. I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction."



and I'd say, "fair enough, glad you are training well."




Okay, lets give it a try.
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#252490 - 03/28/08 11:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Zach, why would I possibly NEED to prove anything to anyone here? I like to discuss karate and give some insight into why I do what I do and train the way I train. I also like to share information with others. Why do you feel the need to obtain "proof" from me as to why I do what I do?




I don't know...why do you feel the need to convince us of your opinions about groundfighting in kata?

Don't turn this around as if me or anyone else is attacking you, I don't think anyone has done that.

If you don't care about it at all then don't post about groundfighting in kata. I have great respect for the way you train, I just think if you're going to post about things like groundfighting in kata that you should at least try to qualify it.

Again I don't think anyone has attacked you in any way, why the hostility?




Zach, here's the thing. Okinawan karate is a complete system. I have been training the principles for ground fighting from the beginning. And because I wrestled for 4 years and then got some submission wrestling training I was able to "see" them. Then I applied the principles of kata to fighting on the ground.
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#252491 - 03/29/08 12:38 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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we certainly won't learn anything from arguing the same stuff over and over, so sure - why not.

people are a product of their experience - and naturally that is projected onto how we interpret kata and how we choose to use it as a training tool. not to mention people's goals/interests and intents are different.

I think the temptation (or sometimes motivation if pushing seminars and DVD's) is for people to crosstrain and/or gain outside influence to add to their art, while wanting to attribute what they do to a perception of 'older' and therefore a 'true-er' essence of study in their classical sense of their art. Which is how you get BJJ/JJ/MMA/Judo/Shuai-Jiao trained Karateka selling DVD's under the older and more romantic title "Tegumi" or even "The lost bunkai of Channan kata and the Temple of Doom".

While it could be a great mix of experience and packaged into a well-delivered training method, it's still purposely deceptive with the motive to sell a view/impression (if even for just status/reputation and not for money). Luring with romanticized history.

blending what you have available and what meets your needs/interests is good stuff. personally, I'd like to see more acceptance and willingness for people to blend their arts across all karate styles and arts. there is no reason for all the styles....ALL Karate is hard and soft

style agnostic Karate...what would that look like, I wonder?

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#252492 - 03/29/08 12:47 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Seiken Offline
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Hi, im new to the forums here. I quite enjoyed reading this topic in particular, while looking at kankudai of shotokan, I came across this application video. Demonstrated at around 2:07 to 2:30 is a perfectly plausible double leg takedown which deviates little if any from the kata.

I dont want to start off on a bad note arguing about kata. I accept we probaly will never know the absolute truth, but it sure is fun experimenting and learning from kata regardless of the outcome. If it works, does it matter the path you take?

EDIT: http://youtube.com/watch?v=CATIlzqSkfg&feature=related


Edited by Seiken (03/29/08 12:55 AM)

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#252493 - 03/29/08 01:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Ed, what happended to "Fair enough, glad you are training well."
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#252494 - 03/29/08 02:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

I'd like to see more acceptance and willingness for people to blend their arts across all karate styles and arts. there is no reason for all the styles....ALL Karate is hard and soft

style agnostic Karate...what would that look like, I wonder?




I just wanted to drift from the thread a bit and comment on this part to say I agree 100%!!

I don't see it truly on a big scale happening anytime soon, but I know that in past few years i've been exposed more to training with and under Karateka outside my style and it's been very eye-opening.

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#252495 - 03/29/08 02:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
slix Offline
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A 9th Star BB test had a master covering significant amounts of groundwork using a real katana it was very impressive. So I don't know if only some forms don't have kata with groundgame but that's not to say they all don't.
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#252496 - 03/29/08 11:10 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: slix]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

A 9th Star BB test had a master covering significant amounts of groundwork using a real katana it was very impressive. So I don't know if only some forms don't have kata with groundgame but that's not to say they all don't.




What kind of groundwork requires a katana?
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#252497 - 03/29/08 11:12 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
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Quote:

In fact, my teacher laughs at me for coming on here and dropping this stuff on you guys. He said I should use the time for training.




He may not laugh at you for doing it. He may laugh at you for for imagining that it will enlighten anyone. It won't.

Quote:

But then again, BuDoc is a good guy and I am not, right? So because he is a good guy I will bare the burden. I'm good at that kind of stuff.





He may laugh at you imagining that you have to bare the burden of Okinawan karates honor. Thats as silly as me argueing with someone when they say my dog is ugly because he only has on eye. I think she is beautiful. She certainly is not concerned with me defending her honor.


Quote:

I have always had conflict in my life and in fact I enjoy it so it doesn't really bother me.




He may laugh at you because... you pretend you don't want conflict when in fact you want it. Not thats not unusual, alot of people do. Look up the Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer Triangle. You are certainly not the only person that eats conflict. It shouldn't bother you because you are getting exactly what you want until you don't want it.

Keep in mind this message could be for anyone on the forum including myself. It is coming from the only person on the thread that has admitted to being crazy.

Quote:

In fact, my teacher laughs at me for coming on here and dropping this stuff on you guys. He said I should use the time for training. I think he might be right.





Your teacher is right. And so was BuDoc.

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#252498 - 03/29/08 11:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: slix]
Seiken Offline
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Just curious. Isnt one of the reasons for kata to train the mind? Hypothetically speaking, if by studying the kata you correlate a relationship with current BJJ ground fighting(or whatever ground style) isnt that just a deeper mental aspect of training the kata? Therefor, it is karate? Even though it may or may not have been around originally in the kata or before 1991, the relation allows you to remember the technique with the kata?

Why is everyone afraid to make a new kata with ground fighting? Isnt that what most Karate of the past did? Itosu with pinans ,maybe even kankudai and bassai sho, ive read rumors of him altering and creating naihanchi nidan&sandan. Funakoshi, Kyan, Shimabuku, etc.. all altered their katas and karate practices to fit their needs & views.

Adding ground fighting you learn from somewhere else only adds to your karate and how important your kata is. Which is why I like the term crosstrain... im training with people that emphasize aspects I normally wouldnt. Mixed martial art gives the impression that once you mix the styles they somehow remain independent of eachother, but in reality you are just creating your style.

Sometimes I wonder if you can get too caught up with what it was or should be, instead of what it is or could be.

If I created a kata which movements and applications had no meaning, it looked good but you didnt understand the movements. Scientifically speaking, everything is good.. positioning, structure, etc.. but no meaning. By way of studying the movements you discover combative elements... its original intention really doesnt matter because it works, the point im making.. isnt the mental stimulus of the kata the most important aspect?

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#252499 - 03/29/08 11:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

A 9th Star BB test had a master covering significant amounts of groundwork using a real katana it was very impressive. So I don't know if only some forms don't have kata with groundgame but that's not to say they all don't.




What kind of groundwork requires a katana?




Seppuku?
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#252500 - 03/29/08 11:30 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Why is everyone afraid to make a new kata with ground fighting?




Not the argument here at all. I could care less if someone were to create a new, groundfighting kata. Or if they find groundfighting applications in classical, stand-up kata.

But, trying to force-fit historical connections where there do not seem to be any is deceptive.
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#252501 - 03/29/08 03:22 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Your teacher is right. And so was BuDoc.




What was BuDoc right about? Not posting here, the groundfighting principles in okinawan karate, or both?
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#252502 - 03/29/08 05:56 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
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Quote:

You do not want me to take out your appendix!


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#252503 - 03/29/08 06:19 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You do not want me to take out your appendix!







It seems as if evasion is a core element of your style.
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#252504 - 03/29/08 09:20 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Victor Smith has a good related thread here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...bf#Post15992016
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#252505 - 03/30/08 10:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

But, trying to force-fit historical connections where there do not seem to be any is deceptive.




Well there is one thing for sure. Anybody researching and writing about the origins of ti needs to be have nigh on 100 percent proof.

The recorded history of Okinawa is bad.
Force fitting historical connections is bad. I dont think Medulant is force fitting anything. I think his instincts are correct.

where there do not seem to be any

At this moment in time there is some proof. It is scant and very little. Enough for me to keep looking. Enough to state I think Medulant is correct and he isnt force fitting anything.

Jude

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#252506 - 03/30/08 11:55 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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not referring to Medulant, but just the argument itself.

the logic goes something like:

statement: kata contains groundfighting principles.

supporting logic:
There are many masters who first had experience in tegumi, (an informal Okinawan wrestling which later merged and survives within folk Okinawan sumo.)

Even though the masters who reference tegumi don't explicitly state or demonstrate a direct connection to their karate kata training, the implied connection is their base study being of a wrestling nature.

conclusion: therefore any base in wrestling (olympic, grecco, shoot-fighting, MMA, Shuai jiao or BJJ), can also be considered 'tegumi', and by implication, part of karate. and since kata is central to karate, there must be principles of tegumi contained within, which includes groundfighting.


As an argument, the logic is weak, and the connection is forced. As a practice - sure why not, great stuff.

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#252507 - 03/30/08 11:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
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Jude,

Med's is a good karateka, of that im sure, he is also an online buddy of mine who speaks and shares ideas/work with me, offline so to speak.

However how does 'scant and very little' (and Med's view)evidence match up against a huge body (that is avalaible) of evidence and experience that states the opposite?

Add to that Okinawan Seniors and Western Masters that I and others have discussed this subject with, they don't see groundfighting 'proper' strategy and techniques in the classical kata.(in fairness I don't think Med does, just it's difficult to explain in writing).

My friend, you are clutching at straws, be optimistic,

keep looking but you should accept that simply the vast majority of opinion both pictorial, written and oral (let alone the physical lack of groundwork proper in kata), in this case might just simply be right.

Of course it would be idiotic to no accept that aspects of standup work canno't be used to good effect on the ground,

as they simply can but not to the level of a specific grappling art with a larger technical, and classical training methods employed for the ground element, ie judo, BJJ etc etc.

Personally I don't get the confusion here, but its a good fun debate - just running out of steam.
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#252508 - 03/30/08 03:12 PM Re: Kata groundfighting *DELETED* [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Post deleted by jude33

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#252509 - 03/30/08 03:19 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:




Add to that Okinawan Seniors and Western Masters that I and others have discussed this subject with, they don't see groundfighting 'proper' strategy and techniques in the classical kata.(in fairness I don't think Med does, just it's difficult to explain in writing).





Hi Jim.
All due respect. Maybe they dont want to see it.
Everything I have gathered points to grappling and elements of ground work in karate and given Medulants back ground and knowledge of kata he can see it. Even if he changed his mind I still believe there might be a chance of proving it.
It also points to pankration in the beggining. I think in time enough proof will be made. Kata more than likely doesnt hold all the clues by the way. I find it realy interesting that given Okinawans who have a direct lineage back to their forefathers decide that it doesnt exist?
What information do they give about the origins of ti?
Hardly any. Why is that? Because the records were lost on Okinawa? When? 2nd world war?
Why is that? Education and earning money? Goverment intervention? Time will tell.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/30/08 03:31 PM)

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#252510 - 03/30/08 03:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
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Why wouldn't they want to see it?

Why wouldn't it be in the many early books that are passed on?

Why wouldn't there be a number of simple ground positional drills passed down in ANY Okinawan line?

Why would, trusted Senior friends of mine (whom trained in Okinawa for many years, under many teachers), who tell me many things about orthodox karate not tell me about ground grappling proper in kata?

(it would be a real find after all?)

Why is there only three positions even remotly suggesting ground work in the classical Shurite kata I practice,

-the kneeling position in Chinto (clearly a hold and strike after you have dump them down from your shoulders),

-the drop down in Kusanku (clearly a reaping leg throw)

- and the kneeling position at the start of Useishi (clearly a Kamate, leading to standup?)

- granted other interpreations have validity, but im trying to make a point.

Leaving the other 99% of movements in the classical kata I practice clearly on your feet?

One of the main problems you have defending your point of view is grappling, on the ground, is mainly concerned with positional dominance to effect a submission,

this can't be transmitted in solo kata, it has to be done with a partner, and no line of Okinawan Karate, that I have ever seen or heard about does train, in this manner with this in mind.

every line of Okinawan Karate I have seen, or heard about effects strikes to a downed opponent to stun/finish, and then will grab something, a limb/neck to break/submit, whilst standing up, or at most kneeling on one leg.

but the strategy is NOT to go to ground or be taken to ground to try for positional dominance - it may happen in real life of course,

and then the reliance is on your physical conditoning and the simple elements of what works standing up, often works on the ground, to a point.

But ground grappling proper that isn't as shown very, very well by the BJJ, Judo and of course MMA guys - this is why NO karate hard nuts have really shown any real dominance in the cage, to date. (and why the ones that do ok, cross train).

Other elements to consider are weapons, and multiple opponents - these really are real self defence scenarios to consider, and your mobility is key to even a chance of survival, im not suggesting karate has the ultimate awnsers to these things, but ground grappling proper certainly doesn't.

This is old news anyhow, im done on this one for a while.

Jude,

keep looking, but keep your eyes open and don't ignore things if they don't fit your want's, I have been there on this one and many other subjects..............
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#252511 - 03/30/08 05:16 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
MattJ Offline
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Excellent points, Jim.

Quote:

One of the main problems you have defending your point of view is grappling, on the ground, is mainly concerned with positional dominance to effect a submission,

this can't be transmitted in solo kata, it has to be done with a partner, and no line of Okinawan Karate, that I have ever seen or heard about does train, in this manner with this in mind.




Quote:

but the [edit:karate] strategy is NOT to go to ground or be taken to ground to try for positional dominance


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#252512 - 03/30/08 05:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
shoshinkan Offline
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well I have my moments..................
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#252513 - 03/30/08 05:43 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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The kata angle I am looking at.

I believe certain parts of ground grappling might have been recorded in dance. Why this was? Still looking in to it and getting the proof.

I believe the origins of ti to be related to pankration.

With the weapons that were available at that given time.

The weapons thing might be another contradiction of what is said to have been available at a given time



All things that need to be addressed before anything can be said to be certain.



But as I have stated the scant evidence I have to date tells me that Medulant is correct in his assumptions about grappling in karate.

Simple thing like one person ending up sitting on top of another wouldnt realy require making moves to get dominance. It could be the result of a trip? But the point is there are ways to get out that work and ways that might not work. I think that would have been placed in solo kata. Not just two man drills. Why didint anybody practice such drill that is known about?

Why do certain people in Okinawa make claims? Then another
goes the opposite direction and incorperates forms with the mechanics of ground work? Is he reworking what he knew to have existed


Well, here is what was stated by Hiroshi Kinjo in an interview,
"Many missunderstand karate do for physical education. Over the years many people have confused and mixed the original forms of martial arts".

Notice the term physical education , martial arts and forms?

Time will tell I suppose.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/30/08 06:01 PM)

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#252514 - 03/30/08 05:48 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
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many great karateka beleive elements of old karate are indeed in the classical dances, well Ti anyhow.

if thats so, which I doubt very much then they arn't in the kata are they only kidding.

agreed, this has been done to death now - new evidence is needed to stimulate better conversation on the subject.
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#252515 - 03/30/08 07:12 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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jude -

Quote:

I believe the origins of ti to be related to pankration.




Quote:

But as I have stated the scant evidence I have to date tells me that Medulant is correct in his assumptions about grappling in karate.




ROFL. Wait......your "scant evidence" of pankration's link to Okinawan karate is because medulanet said so?! This is the research you have done?

BWAHAHAHA

And who mentioned pankration in the first place....?

Never mind.
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#252516 - 03/30/08 07:49 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
trollytrollytrollytrollytrolly
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#252517 - 03/31/08 06:28 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Read it again Matt, You have assumed wrongly.
The proof of a form of pankration existed on Okinawa has nothing to do with what Medulant stated.

Medulant statements are backed up by the existance of proof that pankration played a roll in the devolpment of ti on Okinawa. You can like it or not.






Edited by jude33 (03/31/08 06:48 AM)

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#252518 - 03/31/08 06:41 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

trollytrollytrollytrollytrolly




S.O.L

You want to mess up an informative thread with childish troll comments ?

Be a brave man and give others peace.

PM what ever it is on your mind ! Bro!!

Back to the topic.
S.O.L . Evidence of pankration on Okinawa isnt in any books .


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/31/08 07:03 AM)

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#252519 - 03/31/08 07:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Quote:


Zach, that's the funny thing about logic, not finding something in an incomplete historical record does not prove something false. Now, if it was written there is no ground fighting in karate or kata, then that's one thing. But to state that since you have never seen it nor been taught it nor heard of it mentioned doesn't prove anything except maybe you should dig deeper.




No, the burden of proof is on you guys making the claim, as with anything else we are debating.






This is the problem some of you guys have got. You want others to run around, do research, come up with statements, tell you where it is, so you guys can do what?

Get annoyed?

Given the amount of information posted by guys who know there stuff just on this forum alone should give the information for someone to look further .

So what do some of you guys do who dont know?
winge
Start messing up threads with childish statements .

What do the educators on this forum do?
The guys who know what they are doing?
They post stuff that leads to further research.
And you guys who dont know dont even see it?

Give me a break!! Get some research skills!! I have highlighted the points in case of missunderstanding.

Jude

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#252520 - 03/31/08 08:00 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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oh, i have pm'd you, my thoughts arn't fit for a public forum.

so where is the evidence that pankration influanced ti? if its not in books, where have you fond a connection? both zach and i have asked you 3 times now between us, i'd love to hear this one.
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#252521 - 03/31/08 08:36 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

oh, i have pm'd you, my thoughts arn't fit for a public forum.



I am inclined to agree with you on that one.


I deal with all kinds of people. With some their thoughts wouldnt be deemed fit for a public anything.
If you have something to communicate to me I would suggest; lets keep the threads nice and clean and educational by using the pm's. Or dont bother communicating
Quote:


so where is the evidence that pankration influanced ti? if its not in books, where have you fond a connection? both zach and i have asked you 3 times now between us, i'd love to hear this one.




And so you Zach and who ever has an interest shall.

Jude

Just a reminder to you Zack and who ever, wants to let off steam at me? Pm;s are good, or dont communicate. The forum is educational.

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#252522 - 03/31/08 10:19 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Read it again Matt, You have assumed wrongly.




Now you're even starting to write like med.

Quote:

Medulant statements are backed up by the existance of proof that pankration played a roll in the devolpment of ti on Okinawa. You can like it or not.




Geez......OK then, what proof? Pankration was never part of your (or Med's) argument about groundfighting in kata until *someone else* mentioned it. That is NOT proof in any way.
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#252523 - 03/31/08 10:48 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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"And so you Zach and who ever has an interest shall."

ok buddy, thats what i thought, lol.
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#252524 - 03/31/08 12:41 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Stop sidestepping and answer the question, by the way here's the wiki page on Pankration, wanna explain how an ancient Greek art got to Okinawa for starters?

Note that there is a modern version of Pankration, and an ancient version that evidentally people don't know a whole lot about. How is any of it related to Ti?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

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#252525 - 03/31/08 12:58 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Seiken Offline
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Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
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Quote:

Stop sidestepping and answer the question, by the way here's the wiki page on Pankration, wanna explain how an ancient Greek art got to Okinawa for starters?

Note that there is a modern version of Pankration, and an ancient version that evidentally people don't know a whole lot about. How is any of it related to Ti?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration




If you looked into world history instead of the myth filled martial arts history you might find something.

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#252526 - 03/31/08 01:08 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Seiken]
cxt Offline
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Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Yep

Nothing on the wiki link that so much as uses the word "ti" or "okinawa" or anything else like it.

It does repeat the old story of Alexander the Greats men taking PK to India and thus forming a basis for Indain martial arts.....maybe...the article goes to some pains to explains that no proofs of such an event exsist.

Abscence of proof might not be proof of abscence but we are talking about 1000's of years, multiple countries, different contintents, and a vast number of cultures here...even if it could be shown as true....hardly relevent after so much time and distance.

That combat arts all tend to share certain commonalities is also not unexpected----there is little difference in people in 2000 BCE and today, so it would, IMO, be more surprising, if there radical differnces in approach...not that there are similarities.
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#252527 - 03/31/08 06:43 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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It kills me that you keep misspelling medulanet.

"medulant is right."

jood is a puppet.
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#252528 - 03/31/08 07:16 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

If you looked into world history instead of the myth filled martial arts history you might find something.




Something you wish to share, or are you just being pointlessly obtuse, like jude?
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#252529 - 03/31/08 08:45 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

If you looked into world history instead of the myth filled martial arts history you might find something.




Something you wish to share, or are you just being pointlessly obtuse, like jude?




I know!!! It's like my big sister holding something "ultra special" in her hand and she won't show me!!! Dammit!! What is it!!!
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#252530 - 03/31/08 09:15 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Seiken Offline
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Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Not at all, just simply stating an idea. Those who are seeking may want to look into world history. Considering most history involving martial arts seems to be construed, not that world history isnt/cant be also, but it could be another path to take in finding evidence. Sorry.

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#252531 - 03/31/08 09:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772

Again, the basis of the argument: In Nagamine's book (which the title chapter was re-interpreted in English versions from "Sumo" to "Tegumi" for reasons unadressed and with no one taking responsibility - I know this because I asked), Nagamine mentions having engaged in an Okinawan form of backyard wrestling (play roughhousing-type grappling, the Okinawans called 'tegumi', lower-case 't') during his childhood years.

Nagamine then mentions he did extensive research and has reason to believe the custom is related to a predecessor which influenced Okinawan Sumo. Then the rest of the chapter is exclusively about contemporary Sumo masters (not ancient "Tegumi masters" - which seems a bit of an oxymoron term, since 'Tegumi Master' would be like saying 'Backyard Wrestling Master').
here is your typical backyard wrestling today (minus the WWF-stuff):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A4sJUM7HIk
just make stuff up as you go and learn along the way what works and what doesn't. everyone does that growing up. Thats the activity that was refered to as 'tegumi'.


Nagamine does not mentioned how tegumi affecting Ti, other than perhaps suppossing it did - and maybe it did - but his research self-admittedly didn't turn up anything solid. Absolutely no connection is made by Nagamine between tegumi and kata.


so the 'evidence' of okinawan tegumi being interpreted from chinese forms is at best, as thin as the fact all three terms happen to be used within one book.

as far as written fact, there you go. Nagamine's book is the only one which has the terms: 'tegumi', 'karate', and 'kata' all within it's bound pages. (prior to 1990's, that I know of)


so if thats the criteria for 'written evidence', then just imagine what else can be cooked up.


btw, that tegumi is no longer 'practiced' what would be really lost? Will people 100 years from now regret that kids today engaging in king-of-the-mountain impromptu wrestling bouts, haven't documented their efforts in a technical sense?

Thats basically the hype on 'Tegumi'. it's being sold with a romanticized image using a foreign term, but is more likely a collection of here and there modern wrestling drills.



if we use cultural practices as a basis of argument, there is ALOT more supporting evidence that more than a few Okinawan karateka also studied Odori (folk dancing) and the connections to their kata. So why aren't people having $500 folk dancing seminars showing the connections to their kata? reason: it doesn't sell as well as making the connection to wrestling (especially post-1990's).


Can it's selling power be a legitimate reason to push or pull on historical connections, by providing what people want to learn and luring them with attractive romanticization? From a historical standpoint it's bogus - from a training standpoint it may very well be great stuff.


Just because it's great stuff, does not automatically give it legitimacy in a historical sense. Is my main point.

I'm not expecting you'd acknowledge a good point even if you were hit over the head with it...so flame away. and hey jude -take a sad song, and make it bet-t-er.

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#252532 - 03/31/08 10:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
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This is a good summary of the origins of karate. it's something to be held in esteem.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm

It also means to me you should be training in all of these in your base art or it needs improvement. Replace kata with lockflows, randori as applicable etc.

John Kogas: why are you being such a dishonest dissembler? Your previous good behaviour has been thrown out the window. You don't have a problem with kata, but you don't need to stroke your own ego by making an effete comparison with (what society sees as) feminine dance and then implying kata isn't good for self defence?

I've got no problem with people who shun it and don't do it. But I do have a problem with people who should know better trolling interest forums of practices they have an obsession against.

You are being mednacious or obtuse, or both. Which one John? You know better and can and have discuss MA in a much better spirit. Please do so in the future.
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#252533 - 03/31/08 11:07 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people that have zero experience in ground fighting. (which is fighting on the ground) I'll give them a diagram of a random kata and ask them if they see any joint-locks, chokes, or anything that might help them if the were fighting on the ground. I'm interested to see the results on this one.

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#252534 - 04/01/08 12:16 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

This is a good summary of the origins of karate. it's something to be held in esteem.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm





Quote:


Tegumi: [&#25163;&#32068;] Originally a multi-faceted style of fighting dating back to the time of Tametomo, the discipline is believed to have been derived from Chinese Wrestling [Jiao Li/&#35282;&#21147; from which comes Shuai Jiao/&#25684;&#35282; --- name est. 1928]. Tegumi evolved into a form of grappling and finally became a rule-bound sport called Ryukyu Sumo.




and it gives a wiki link to "Tegumi":
Quote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi
Tegumi is a traditional form of wrestling from Okinawa..

According to Shoshin Nagamine, in his "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters", there are no accurate historical documents surrounding the origins of grappling in Okinawa. Like most other forms of wrestling it seems that tegumi evolved from a primitive form of grappling self defense, which was constantly being adapted and enhanced as it was exposed to outside influences.

It is believed by some, Shoshin Nagamine Sensei included, that tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa and, as it was enhanced by striking and kicking techniques imported from China, the progenitor of Te, which is the foundation of modern Karate.

Known as tegumi in Naha, and mutou in Tomari and Shuri, Okinawan wrestling remained a popular cultural recreation until the Taisho period (1912 – 1925). There is little evidence of how tegumi evolved but the result was a rough and tumble bout where the winner was decided by submission, through joint locks, strangles or pinning. Today tegumi has a strict set of rules and is still practiced widely.

Island folklore is full of references to tegumi and it is believed that the islands version of sumo can find its roots in the rural wrestling of the past.





so which definition is held in esteem? his statements contradict his reference.
Any sources to claim the origins of tegumi going back to the 12th century? or is that part of the folklore the wikipage mentions?

where was Tegumi ever descibed as integrated into Te and/or Karate? Many Okinawan kids probably did engage in forms of "wrasslin". That they later trained in karate can we legitimately make the historical connection between groundfighting and kata?


looks like great drills, but does this look like what could be Ryukyu folk wrestling?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzlNHQLbU4

ah...now the connection comes clear.




I have no problem with various arts having various drills - it's all good - it's just annoying when history tries to be re-written in the name of marketing campaigns.


now I prepare for the damage-control squad to swoop in and/or hit the batphone....lol

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#252535 - 04/01/08 12:43 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
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Maybe you can take it up with Pat Mc Carthy who trained in Japan, Okinawa and China for 20 years. I could take it up with Nagamine, but I'll need Shirley Maclaine's help.
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#252536 - 04/01/08 12:55 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Usenthemighty]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people that have zero experience in ground fighting. (which is fighting on the ground) I'll give them a diagram of a random kata and ask them if they see any joint-locks, chokes, or anything that might help them if the were fighting on the ground. I'm interested to see the results on this one.




That'll solve everything,lol.
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#252537 - 04/01/08 12:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Maybe you can take it up with Pat Mc Carthy who trained in Japan, Okinawa and China for 20 years. I could take it up with Nagamine, but I'll need Shirley Maclaine's help.




No need. The answer is clear,but I wouldn't mind discussing it with them here.

If we kick their ass does that make us right?
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#252538 - 04/01/08 01:26 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
already have, and while I respect his work/experience and opinion - I only disagree with the re-use of historical terms that are very easily and popularly construed as historical. It puts into question the motive for using the term in the first place...which the only answer I can come up with is: marketing. eg. "older-sounding" sells better.

Quote:


PM: Well, if you’re comfortable with knowing that the term “Tegumi” [‘grappling hands’] is --- in addition to being known as Okinawa’s original form of grappling--- is also the term “I” personally chose to represent a collective body of old-school two-person [kote kitae, kakei, muchimi-di, etc.] drills that I systematized into a cohesive study, I have nothing else to say on the matter. I am not personally interested in arguing semantics.





so there's 'tegumi' ...and then there's Tegumi™. got it.

semantics indeed.

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#252539 - 04/01/08 01:34 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

where was Tegumi ever descibed as integrated into Te and/or Karate?




Nagamine's book Tale's of Okinawa's Great Masters page 138.
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#252540 - 04/01/08 01:51 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
this?

(after he explains that the term 'tegumi' is a general term/concept Okinawans use for 'grappling'):

Quote:


There is every reason to believe that tegumi, after being enhanced by techniques of striking and kicking, also served as the progenitor of "te".






"There is every reason to believe ..."

(which is the same as saying that 'te' probably had grappling - I don't deny that)
Nagamine is considered an authority and I respect his beliefs.


now you have a loose connection between grappling within te, or grappling with strikes and kicks - whichever way you wish to think about it.


Did Okinawan te have kata? or a better question - did tegumi have kata?


how did they ever learn to grapple, groundfight and strike without kata I wonder?

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#252541 - 04/01/08 02:15 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

how did they ever learn to grapple, groundfight and strike without kata I wonder?




In karate application came before kata. In fact, application was always studied first. Kata was simply designed as a storehouse for the lessons and principles which are trained in resistive two man drills. Teaching kata first and application later is the modern way. Itosu did this as did other okinawans before him if they did not want their students to use their karate as a means of destruction. Matsumora did the same when he taught Motobu and refused to teach him his kumite due to his reputation as a street fighter.

Think of it this way. You can teach a person who knows nothing of fighting to stick his fist out and then pull it back. Because it means little as a fighting technique that exercise will not improve his fighting. However, teach a person a jab, how to use it, and have him train using it against resistance and then have him do the same exercise and he will be able to improve his technique and skill in using the technique with this solo drill. Kata is similar.

This is the way I was trained by my first teacher. And it is how Nagamine trained him.
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#252542 - 04/01/08 03:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

Have you seen any vids anywhere on the net which show an example of the ground grappling you feel is inherrant to Karate? I just think it might help if folks know precisely what you are talking about.

Out of curiosity did your first teacher learn ground work from Nagamine? Did he teach any to you?

Also it does seem like your whole argument is based on one or two lines in books by a single author which are in truth incredibly vague. The last one you quoted says that the author believes tegumi may be part of Te's origins. Another is an english translation of what may just be a coloquilism (karate wrestling). You have to admit that in the face of tons of evidence and claims to the contrary, your historical link is pretty weak.
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#252543 - 04/01/08 03:51 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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As far as the "evidence" contrary to my asertions about grappling/groundfighting in karate it is that of omision. There is no explicit information which says there is groundfighting in karate, however, there is nothing which says there is not any. However, I never based my practice on historical research. Simply similarities between my grappling practice and karate practice as a youth. And then when I was taught how to analyze and interpret kata and gleam application from them things started making sense to me. Now, it is important to understand that I was never in awe of the Gracies and UFC because I always knew that grappling was no joke, however, I also knew how to counter the wrestling aspect of grappling and not be taken to the ground. It was not the obsession that many people have with the UFC which began in 1993 that caused me to make these connections. Simply shared principles.

As far as grappling in karate we mainly learned chokes, joint locks on the wrist, elbow, and shoulder in addition to some takedowns. We would initiate these standing and sometimes be forced to finish them on the floor.

As far as video there is none that shows precisely what I am talking about. I would have to do it. One day I may, you never know. However, I can tell you that if you look at wrestling as it is applied to fighting you will get a good idea of some of the principles that are shared. The thing about good wresting is that many of the principles used standing also work on the ground. That is what makes fighting techniques and principles sound IMO. Its not a question of having a completely different set of techs for each situation. If you can train one technique that will work in any position it is a good technique. Like the underhook. The grappling in karate is like this. Very simple and works in many positions. In fact, this is the genious of well thought out fighting systems. Sound techniques are sound techniques. The okinawan kata are chock full of sound techniques. If you control the shoulder you control the shoulder. On the ground, in the air, at your momma's house, where ever. The same goes for wrist control, head control, etc. These are the principles contained in okinawan karate.

My arguements are not based on written history. They are based on training. I believe others are basing their arguements on history and research. It just so happens that there are a few nuggets of knowledge in the books written by the founder of my style. But don't you think it is very interesting that the style in which I find inspiration for these grappling principles is the very style whose founder wrote the little that was written by an okinawan about okinawan grappling and its relation to karate?
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#252544 - 04/01/08 07:26 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


My arguements are not based on written history. They are based on training. I believe others are basing their arguements on history and research. It just so happens that there are a few nuggets of knowledge in the books written by the founder of my style. But don't you think it is very interesting that the style in which I find inspiration for these grappling principles is the very style whose founder wrote the little that was written by an okinawan about okinawan grappling and its relation to karate?





Absolutely



Ed
Quote:


I'm not expecting you'd acknowledge a good point even if you were hit over the head with it...so flame away. and hey Jude -take a sad song, and make it bet-t-er.





Hi Ed. Tell you something Ed. Every point you make about most subjects are taken serious.
Do you know why? Because the counter arguments you come up with make good sense. Every point would have to be counter proven should anybody decide to publish their findings? (except for the “devil in you approach”)
Quote:



Did Okinawan te have kata? or a better question - did tegumi have kata?




From my studies and to the time scale it seems early ti didn’t have kata as such practiced today.
It was more than likely dance being at that time dance would have been the best form of the transmission of knowledge. For most things.



User the almighty
Quote:




U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people





If you feel that would help go for it. . Don’t let people put you off if you have a line of thinking

Seiken

Quote:




If you looked into world history instead of the myth filled martial arts history you might find something.




From my studies a certain time period in world history plays a part. Except it has to be more or less proven.
DNA testing can give some indication to tribal relationships where they were to a degree isolated. Don’t let people put you off if you have a line of thinking.

cxt
Quote:




It does repeat the old story of Alexander the Greats men taking PK to India and thus forming a basis for Indain martial arts.....maybe...the article goes to some pains to explains that no proofs of such an event exsist.





From my studies the sharing of knowledge might have began in an earlier period in history.
Still working on that one.



Matt
Quote:



Geez......OK then, what proof? Pankration was never part of your (or Med's) argument about groundfighting in kata until *someone else* mentioned it. That is NOT proof in any way.






Matt, Early forms of combat were the research point. No one is saying that the only proof is someone mentioning pankration. It goes a lot deeper.

Brian, How is my spelling? Ed and others come up with productive counter arguments. You come up with productive counter spelling checks.

Zach, well what can I say?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 07:34 AM)

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#252545 - 04/01/08 08:34 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Mark Hill Offline
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You don't learn how to fight on the ground in kata in the same way you don't learn modern boxing from kata. However, kata teaches "groundfighting" or more correclty fighting to the ground to a limited extent.

Move 9 Heian Shodan - throw/takedown

Moves 1-2, 3-4 Heain Nidan - from double grab, lock opponents arms out against each other, trip, takedown, switch orientation and double shoulder lock and knee control to back of head.

Heian Sandan - stomps/kicks - application of trapping kick to takedown, leglock, double and triple augmented (now hands free) leg lock

Heian Yondan - x block/reinforced inner block - leglock takedown

Heian Godan - reinforced uppercut/jump/reinforced inner block - armbar into piledriver/throw/choke

"swastika posture" - leg/body takedown

Bassai Dai - Opening salutation - sprawl, shoulderm lock, knee to head and control

Also parry tackle, arm control, strike the head into single shoudler lock/head control

Jion - slow double lower block into knee/fast lower blocks step into double inner blocks:

evade grab, control arms, headbut, trip/leglock into throw and hip lock (painful)

Enpi 1st move - armbar into takedown, lock out shoulder and apply wristlock (opponent becomes huddled over)

2nd Move - rise and dislocate shoulder

or 1st move armbar into takedown (more fluid and circular, reach in at end)

2nd - head control/neck crank standing or control front leg and dump then apply leg leg lock standing (3rd 4th moves) neck crank moves into head throw

skip is tripping or throwing sequence (well known)

fudo dachi into jump and step back knifehand (actually superfluous)

armbar into throw using opponents leg or head control, then use "squatting" choke or leg lock (hands free using legs)

Bassai Sho - 1st slow pressing block into hammerfist/lowerblock doble strike (3rd and 4th moves)

armbar like from enpi, into takedown and figure four control

Hangetsu - refer to Seisan and Hakatsuru - very rich in controls, chokes and takedowns. The last pull/step over/kick/step/block/palm heel sequence is a good tripping sequence that ends in your opponent facing the other way, seated and with fingers jammed into their triple heater, point of jaw, neck and shoulder PPs.

Kanku Sho, Dai, Chinte, Unsu - besides groundkicks, some throws that repeat themselves. Apparently there is a scissors defense to being in a vulnerable grappling position in Kanku Dai.
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#252546 - 04/01/08 10:01 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

As far as the "evidence" contrary to my asertions about grappling/groundfighting in karate it is that of omision. There is no explicit information which says there is groundfighting in karate, however, there is nothing which says there is not any. However, I never based my practice on historical research.



school yourself on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

but just as I don't verbally debate on a mat, I don't use 'gut feeling' as a basis for historical evidence in a forum argument.


you can't really give page numbers as references, then on the next post take the cop-out answer as basing your historical argument on your mat expereince.

sorry. doesn't hold water. you contradict your your own credability.


I take it the historical argument is laid to rest (in that there IS no historical basis for connecting groundfighting to kata), and you now wish to change the focus to your personal feeling/experience? thats fine, but lets be clear of the difference.

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#252547 - 04/01/08 10:17 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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med says: "There is no explicit information which says there is groundfighting in karate"


and we do agree that there was no evidence of tegumi/te having kata.

do we agree that tegumi/te practice on Okinawa predates toudi? (te with Chinese kata) ?

if we do agree on that, then the following question comes up: if Okinawan masters were already skilled grapplers/strikers and overall fighters - why import Chinese kata?

Think of the year xxxx when the first Okinawan Master imports a Chinese form - if fighting knowledge comes before kata formation...then why import someone elses kata, when you can just build your own experience into your own form?

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#252548 - 04/01/08 10:33 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
My thoughts in the subject.

Quote:


I take it the historical argument is laid to rest (in that there IS no historical basis for connecting groundfighting to kata),





That statement isnt conclusive yet. Time will tell.
It is still open to debate but nothing as yet to prove or dissprove to a degree of total certainty.
Quote:


and you now wish to change the focus to your personal feeling/experience? thats fine, but lets be clear of the difference.




The point is Ed it cant be proven or dissproven at this moment in time. So no one has won anything. It has been a discussion that has brought to light a lot of things.
But it seems it will need further exploration to continue the debate in the future.
No winners no losers.

Just an argument that produced a lot of points for further research.

Quote:




if we do agree on that, then the following question comes up: if Okinawan masters were already skilled grapplers/strikers and overall fighters - why import Chinese kata?

Think of the year xxxx when the first Okinawan Master imports a Chinese form - if fighting knowledge comes before kata formation...then why import someone elses kata, when you can just build your own experience into your own form?






Slow down Ed, At the moment I am only concentrating on the early ti part of karate.
I can make a scant guess but I am not going to.
One of the things I have is a written report by a Japanese school teacher around 1901 that in a way is partly backed up by an Okinawan master as to certain thugs using an art based on extreme hand conditioning against the local population.

The master gave his explanation of the art they used as
an incomplete art. I am presuming he meant early ti that might have been practiced still at that time by the less well heeled part of the population.



Beyond that I could post something at a future date.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 10:57 AM)

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#252549 - 04/01/08 10:42 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
right. so why do people still insist on trying to give the impression their art is based on historical accuracy?

that fact is, they don't know.

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#252550 - 04/01/08 10:54 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

right. so why do people still insist on trying to give the impression their art is based on historical accuracy?

that fact is, they don't know.




More than likely as historical accuracy as can be got at that moment in time.
Ed would you like you like to get at the truth or just win an argument? I would like to get to the truth. Your input is great on these debates. At this moment nothing can be proven 100 percent. If Medulanent states something or you state something turning it personal wont achieve anything.
Both of you guys make my brain work.

Jude

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#252551 - 04/01/08 11:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Guys, the fact that it can't be explicitly disproven doesn't (1) make it true or (2) make it worth serious consideration that there was any kind of formally trained submission style wrestling in Karate.

If you could find real, incontrovertible evidence that it was there then you would have something to debate. If you could find that evidence I think everyone would be receptive, but my feeling is you cannot.

Mark, we all know there are takedowns in Karate where one might end up on the floor, the contention here is whether or not there is submission style grappling in Karate, and it's moved on to whether or not this is proved by the little bit that's been written about Ti.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/01/08 11:15 AM)

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#252552 - 04/01/08 12:02 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Guys, the fact that it can't be explicitly disproven doesn't (1) make it true or (2) make it worth serious consideration that there was any kind of formally trained submission style wrestling in Karate.

If you could find real, incontrovertible evidence that it was there then you would have something to debate. If you could find that evidence I think everyone would be receptive, but my feeling is you cannot.




My feeling is it can be. Proven that is. Time will tell.

Quote:


Mark, we all know there are takedowns in Karate where one might end up on the floor, the contention here is whether or not there is submission style grappling in Karate, and it's moved on to whether or not this is proved by the little bit that's been written about Ti.




This is a guy who trained with quite a few of the masters at that time.


Quote from an interview with Hiroshi Jinjo who would now be about 88 years old. The karate I practice is made for physical education . Over the years many people have confused and mixed the original forms of Martial Arts .

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

My thoughts
Combat should take the form of learning to fight from all positions. Standing, kneeling, ground fighting and anything in between all of the above. It would be bad not to.

Physical education (PE) is the interdisciplinary study of all areas of science relating to the transmission of physical knowledge and skills to an individual or a group, the application of these skills, and their results.

Its physical education therefore parts trained for combat could be removed. Including things like ground fighting techniques etc.


original forms= kata.
Mixed the original forms?
Mixed up?
Changed?
Removed certain techniques?

So it is still to be proven.

Quote:


in Karate, and it's moved on to whether or not this is proved by the little bit that's been written about Ti.
Quote:



Going back somewhat to where I am concentrating.

Pankration and ti? It seems Pankration itself had a form of its own set "drills"? Included in the "drills" was striking grappling and ground work.



So at some time in the future if I can establish beyond some doubt the link of early ti to pankration?

Time will tell.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 12:36 PM)

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#252553 - 04/01/08 12:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote from an interview with Hiroshi Jinjo who would now be about 88 years old. The karate I practice is made for physical education . Over the years many people have confused and mixed the original forms of Martial Arts .

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

My thoughts
Combat should take the form of learning to fight from all positions. Standing, kneeling, ground fighting and anything in between all of the above. It would be bad not to.

Physical education (PE) is the interdisciplinary study of all areas of science relating to the transmission of physical knowledge and skills to an individual or a group, the application of these skills, and their results.




Thanks for the completely unrelated quotes, Jude.

Quote:

Its physical education therefore parts trained for combat could be removed. Including things like ground fighting techniques etc.




Could be? Great. Where is your proof? There could be rainbow fairies dancing on the surface of the sun. Haven't seen anyone disprove it yet.

Exagerating, yes. But I hope you see my point that assuming things or taking LACK OF evidence as proof of existence is p1ss poor logic.
_________________________
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#252554 - 04/01/08 12:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Why would he make out the difference?
why state the forms were mixed up?




Anyhow that isnt proof, that is some one indicating changes might have been made to kata.

You guys are going to need total proof.
Will be some time in coming.
It will come though.

Though so.
The 5 animal hands in Tensho, snake, crane, tiger, leopard and dragon.
Moving ahead to my limited knowledge of certain kata. There would seem to be snake involved in certain kata being discussed. Snake would indicate to me ground fighting.

A whole heap of ground fighting. Time will tell

I await in ernest.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 12:46 PM)

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#252555 - 04/01/08 01:51 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

med says: if we do agree on that, then the following question comes up: if Okinawan masters were already skilled grapplers/strikers and overall fighters - why import Chinese kata?




This usually happened when the okinawans felt they had something to learn from what the chinese taught. It is important to understand that okinawan kata are lessons on chinese fighting methods to which the okinawans added their own principles. Think of the stories where a chinese man was ship wrecked and an okinawan was unable to defeat him. He then learned his fighting techs developed a kata based on them and passed it on.

Quote:

Think of the year xxxx when the first Okinawan Master imports a Chinese form - if fighting knowledge comes before kata formation...then why import someone elses kata, when you can just build your own experience into your own form?




Again, see above. Get out of the learn a kata and learn how to fight mentality. The katas are based on fighting techniques and application training. Then those principles are developed into a kata.
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#252556 - 04/01/08 02:07 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

school yourself on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies




That's great Ed, but that is void of actual practice. You can school me on fallicies and I can school you on kata applications. But wait, I have been all along.

Quote:

but just as I don't verbally debate on a mat, I don't use 'gut feeling' as a basis for historical evidence in a forum argument.




Again, no gut feeling, just practice.

Quote:

you can't really give page numbers as references, then on the next post take the cop-out answer as basing your historical argument on your mat expereince.




Is it a cop out as well to ask for references from someone who does not base his practice from the pages of a book and then chastise him for giving you what you requested?

Quote:

sorry. doesn't hold water. you contradict your your own credability.




Credibility where? Here? On this board? With you guys? And how does that exactly affect me? The fact of the matter is you guys don't believe what I say anyway. Either you don't think my training and fighting is any good (and that is good for me because I will be taken lightly skill wise) or maybe you do think my training is good and then I have not lost any credibility, right? Oh, you mean if I am trying to sell any books or videos. Sorry, not yet anyway. But that is your main concern, right?


Quote:

I take it the historical argument is laid to rest (in that there IS no historical basis for connecting groundfighting to kata), and you now wish to change the focus to your personal feeling/experience? thats fine, but lets be clear of the difference.




Actually Ed that was always my focus. Then you guys asked questions that I answered. Silly me. Its really up to you to lay it to rest or not. If you ask the question you will get the same answer. I thought you would remember my answers and stop asking the same questions over and over again. Oh well, what else should I have expected?
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#252557 - 04/01/08 02:30 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Credability on here is proven every time you guys lock horns and argue. If you guys didnt know your stuff these arguments wouldnt reach the intensity and depth they do.

I personaly think when this thread stops it will be brought back in the future when new points are brought up providing it doesnt get personal and the thread gets locked.

Another quote from another Okinawan guy who said so.

"It is difficult to understand karate with out understanding the life and history of Okinawa".

That to me means not just karate study but to study how Okinawans lived. From year dot to present day.

Jude

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#252558 - 04/01/08 03:40 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Credibility where? Here? On this board? With you guys? And how does that exactly affect me? The fact of the matter is you guys don't believe what I say anyway. Either you don't think my training and fighting is any good




*lassos med, and drags him back to the topic*

See, statements like that are the problem. You have totally, 100% changed the question from "Do we believe med about the historical connections between kata and groundfighting" to "Do we think med's training is bad".

The overall opinion seems to be that the historical connections you have put forth are not substantial enough to make your case. This does not mean that anyone thinks you are stupid or inferior, etc. It just mean we disagree about that point.

Your training sounds good, although video would be nice.

So quit trying to change the subject.
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#252559 - 04/01/08 03:48 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
now you are just outright being dishonest.

arguing historical references are for the forum...arguing actual technique is for the mat.

so, in effect you are displayling that since you can't win a debate of logic and historical facts, then you resort to "proving" your historical correctness on the mat.

thats laughably transparant and is eqivalent to proving a technique on the mat, by telling your sparring partner to turn to "Nagamine's book Tale's of Okinawa's Great Masters page 138."

you may have H.S. varsity wrestling in your Karate on the mat, but you have no historical argument on a forum.

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#252560 - 04/01/08 04:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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I think people are running out of ideas and getting tired.
From my perspective there are no winners or losers. You two are both clever in your own right so how about calling it a draw untill further evidence appears other wise this argument will go no where other than getting too personal.
.

So it is back to fact finding.

Thread could re open at another date.

Jude

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#252561 - 04/01/08 07:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Mark Hill Offline
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Come on, no one else wants to talk applications?
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#252562 - 04/01/08 07:41 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
A new thread might be good for that Mark, the subject here is specifically groundfighting in kata, and more specifically the historical existence and content of submission grappling trained alongside Karate.

It's been like 6 different threads, all very contentious so if you want strictly application discussion i'd start a new thread.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/01/08 07:44 PM)

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#252563 - 04/01/08 10:52 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
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Well if people with our ground fighting experience can't "see" something that ppl say is there, then its probably not. Thats what I was getting at.

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#252564 - 04/01/08 11:00 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Usenthemighty]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Well if people with our ground fighting experience can't "see" something that ppl say is there, then its probably not. Thats what I was getting at.




I agree,but with good imigination I can see certain things and how they could be trained as groundfighting. You could potentially see many BJJ techniques and train them that way. My point is that there is no proof that they "were always there." Not one single shred, not one iota, not one nano of a hint of a clue.

go ahead with your study though, it might be interesting.
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#252565 - 04/02/08 01:02 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

now you are just outright being dishonest.

arguing historical references are for the forum...arguing actual technique is for the mat.




Actually I thought discussing technical aspects of forms and application was for this particular board. And that's what I do, but all you guys want to do is discuss history. Interesting. I personally post here do discuss actual technique. The dojo is for physical practice. Where I am from we discuss with action on the "deck."

Quote:

so, in effect you are displayling that since you can't win a debate of logic and historical facts, then you resort to "proving" your historical correctness on the mat.




Ed, its about showing people how the principles translate in different positions. I guess demonstrating application and explaining why things are the way they are is a foreign concept to you. I'm not sure what the reaction is about. Bad day at work I guess.

Quote:

thats laughably transparant and is eqivalent to proving a technique on the mat, by telling your sparring partner to turn to "Nagamine's book Tale's of Okinawa's Great Masters page 138."




That's odd. I really don't know anyone who trains like that.

Quote:

you may have H.S. varsity wrestling in your Karate on the mat, but you have no historical argument on a forum.




See Ed, this statement shows how little you are actually getting of what I am saying. Wrestling is simply supplementary training. I teaches you how to move, use leverage, throw people around, etc. In other words it teaches you how to grapple. Just like as little children we learn to walk and develop that ability over the course of our lives. Then when we train in karate that walking is altered and we learn ways to move effectively. We use the same with any physical training or physical attribute we develop. We use all of these in our karate training.

Oh, and I do notice the sarcasim in your posts. But I believe the facts are that there is a connection between the okinawan grappling arts and karate. The extent of which no one has established. You are so busy trying to validate yourself by tearing down others, what exactly is your stance on this issue? Because the history as we have already agreed is so slim that there is no definitive way of proving either side. However, my own viewpoint and stance on the issue has not changed.

Happy training Ed. You have successfully proved that you are a true karate scholar and historian.
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#252566 - 04/02/08 01:10 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Credibility where? Here? On this board? With you guys? And how does that exactly affect me? The fact of the matter is you guys don't believe what I say anyway. Either you don't think my training and fighting is any good




*lassos med, and drags him back to the topic*

See, statements like that are the problem. You have totally, 100% changed the question from "Do we believe med about the historical connections between kata and groundfighting" to "Do we think med's training is bad".

The overall opinion seems to be that the historical connections you have put forth are not substantial enough to make your case. This does not mean that anyone thinks you are stupid or inferior, etc. It just mean we disagree about that point.

Your training sounds good, although video would be nice.

So quit trying to change the subject.




Matt, completing the quote would be nice. Trying to prove your point by posting a portion of my post and only posting one half of the last sentence. Where is Ed and the dishonesty police when you need him? Nice. Actually that quote was in regard to my credibility. Maybe where you are from karate credibility is only about research, but questioning my credibility is about my ability. Ultimately belts are only good in the dojo and all this theory and historical references are for the written word, but credibility in karate is about what you can do. Maybe where you are from it is not, but we are from different worlds, aren't we?
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#252567 - 04/02/08 01:59 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so am I to understand you've only ever been debating the issue of historical connections to kata and groundfighting, from the perspective of what you can show on the mat?

you don't see the disconnect of logic there?

and if that's true, then why do you reference page numbers from a book and cite quotes whenever asked for the historical connection? Aren't you being hypocritical?

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#252568 - 04/02/08 02:28 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

so am I to understand you've only ever been debating the issue of historical connections to kata and groundfighting, from the perspective of what you can show on the mat?




My arguements have come from my training and physical study. In my reading of Nagamine's books these are the things that stuck out. You guys asked for references and I cited Nagamine's writings.

Quote:

you don't see the disconnect of logic there?




I havene't been debating the historical connection but simply stating what Nagamine writes. If what I cite is not enough to convince you, that really has nothing to do with me. If I was debating anything it was how the actual techniques in kata translate. So no, no disconnect of logic.

Quote:

and if that's true, then why do you reference page numbers from a book and cite quotes whenever asked for the historical connection? Aren't you being hypocritical?




Well, no because people ask the question so I answer. How is that hypocritical. If I know of a historical connection between what I do and the okinawans, why should I not state it? Even when that connection does not drive my training does that mean I should not put out there what I know?
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#252569 - 04/02/08 11:02 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

My arguements have come from my training and physical study.




thats what I thought. well, using that logic, then the opposite is also true: If someone's training did not include groundfighting, then there is no historical connection to kata and groundfighting. The evidence being what is not displayed on the mat along with all the books which do not mention a connection.


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#252570 - 04/02/08 11:07 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



. But I believe the facts are that there is a connection between the okinawan grappling arts and karate.





I also believe there is a connection between
the Okinawan grappling arts.
karate.
Okinawan dance in all of its forms including the dances imported from China.
Earlier Okinawan weapons.
Early farming tools
And most things found in some of the Okinawan's life styles both past and present.
Quote:



Because the history as we have already agreed is so slim that there is no definitive way of proving either side.






Hopefull that can be changed in the future.

Jude

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#252571 - 04/02/08 11:42 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Med -

Quote:

Matt, completing the quote would be nice. Trying to prove your point by posting a portion of my post and only posting one half of the last sentence. Where is Ed and the dishonesty police when you need him? Nice.




I didn't pull the rest of your quote, as you were drifting even further off-topic.

Quote:

Actually that quote was in regard to my credibility. Maybe where you are from karate credibility is only about research, but questioning my credibility is about my ability.






Here we go again. No one is questioning your ability - although video would be nice.

Just questioning your logic with the kata/groundfighting historical connections. Two different things, despite how you are trying to equate them.

Quote:

Ultimately belts are only good in the dojo and all this theory and historical references are for the written word, but credibility in karate is about what you can do. Maybe where you are from it is not, but we are from different worlds, aren't we?




It must be awful for you, Med. To be the ONLY ONE HERE that ever trains on the mat or puts principles to the test. I have absolutely no idea what that must be like, being an internet keyboard warrior and all.

To quote Mr. Han, "You have my GRATITUDE!"

Would that I could help take some of that awesome weight off your shoulders......

*tear*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252572 - 04/02/08 03:31 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I don't doubt your ability in the least, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if your physical skills far exceed mine, and plenty of other people's on here. It sounds like you are in great shape, and well trained and skilled in more than one art.

However none of that is remotely relevant on a forum, even with video. Since we cannot actually (most of the time) train with one another in person all we have to go in arguments in the other person's words.

I don't think you've been intentionally dishonest, but I do think that you are succumbing to an MA marketing mindset where you are required to claim you art is somehow all-encompassing by doing things like claiming cross-training is not cross-training

Bottom line is on a purely academic level none of these arguments about groundfighting in kata seem to hold water. That doesn't mean that your blend of wrestling hasn't made you Karate more complete, I can certainly accept that, but it's not something that can be proved in written form on a forum.

That's the frustrating thing about forums, it really isn't about what you can "do" on them, unlike actually training. It's just about what you can write and that's it.

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#252573 - 04/02/08 03:47 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

It's just about what you can write and that's it.




Or draw...

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#252574 - 04/02/08 04:10 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Lol that is awesome....who/what is the green garbed cameltoe warrior though?

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#252575 - 04/02/08 04:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Thats a loooooong story. Best saved for another thread.
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#252576 - 04/02/08 07:38 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Quote:

It's not giving credit where it's due. instead, for some reason, people place kata on a pedestal which is invisibly propped up by other arts. They wish to create the illusion that the skill came from working the kata, when much more likely, the skill was built by outside influence and applied to kata after the fact.




Where's your proof?
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#252577 - 04/02/08 11:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
there is no proof. it's my opinion.

(see how easy it is to say: "There are no historical connections between kata and groundfighting, but it's my opinion there are.")

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