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#252333 - 07/03/07 01:47 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

To ask the question in a different way: though the only physical force used was by the cop, is it in any doubt that the pimp was the attacker? To me it is clear, and to a jury it would be as well. i doubt, in fact, that it would even get as far as court.




How often is it this clear? More often than not, in situations such as this, I've had to deal with a sucker punch. No one has ever bull-charged me, getting his shirt ripped off in the process by his friends trying to hold him back.

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#252334 - 07/03/07 02:35 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

So, Hard Sparring, Being a Bouncer/Doorman and/or Common Sense? That's what you recommend to be able to use Preemptive Striking appropriately?




Training in as realistic a manner as possible, using full resistance is important so as to familiarise yourself, and train your responses as best as you can to function if unfortunate enough to be attacked.

Common sense should be strived for in all walks of life, and applied at all times dont you think?

Working the door is not a requisite entry on your CV to be able to act pre-emptively, though the exposure to conflict and aggression that is inherent in the job does help improve your ability to assess such situations.
I would argue that only those with common sense, good judgement, good people skills, and confidence in their assessment of situations under pressure should do the job in the first place. A lot of firefighters hold second jobs as doorstaff for this very reason- they have the tools for the trade.

On the other side of the coin, pre-emptive action is not inherent or compulsory for door work. You have already heard Mcsensei disagree with my take on things, he is a door worker himself, so is Gavin. I am not the all singing voice of the Bouncers of the world, i am just speaking from my personal experience, and what I believe. Experiences and opinions vary.

I do not agree with your take on this as a sort of 'pro's vs plebs' kind of a deal. If you feel you have exhausted your options-if reason, placation and de-escalation have no effect, if escape is geographicaly impossible, or you have been persued and blocked in the attempt, then you would do well to accept this and put your attacker on the back foot, not allow them to start their attack at their leisure. I saw the sense in that before being involved in any form of security work.

Quote:

How often is it this clear? More often than not, in situations such as this, I've had to deal with a sucker punch. No one has ever bull-charged me, getting his shirt ripped off in the process by his friends trying to hold him back.




If the victim of a true sucker punch, then the fence is null and void because you simply havent seen it coming period.
Again, in my experience, the ritual of aggression escalation is very common. Verbal aggression, posturing, invasion of personal space, maybe even a shove (though for me that would constitute a physical attack in itself), the 'dance' before a fight is as natural as dogs growling and circling each other before the . Its part of the animal act of asserting dominance. Much of de-escalation is gratifying the sense of power in your aggressor- for some, this is enough and the worst you have to deal with is a bruised sense of pride as you walk away under a volley of insults. For some aggressor's however, this triggers a 'killer instinct', (my term, bit meladromatic, but I cant think of anything more suitable at the mo'), and then they look to assert their percieved dominance physicaly. At this point, you may as well 'lead the dance', or your partner will likely tread on your toes.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252335 - 07/03/07 03:08 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Again, in my experience, the ritual of aggression escalation is very common. Verbal aggression, posturing, invasion of personal space, maybe even a shove (though for me that would constitute a physical attack in itself), the 'dance' before a fight is as natural as dogs growling and circling each other before the . Its part of the animal act of asserting dominance. Much of de-escalation is gratifying the sense of power in your aggressor- for some, this is enough and the worst you have to deal with is a bruised sense of pride as you walk away under a volley of insults. For some aggressor's however, this triggers a 'killer instinct', (my term, bit meladromatic, but I cant think of anything more suitable at the mo'), and then they look to assert their percieved dominance physicaly. At this point, you may as well 'lead the dance', or your partner will likely tread on your toes.




I would defer to your door experience, since I have less than a year (the place was shut down after the 2nd shooting, serving minors, etc), but most of the "dance" is a public show that most often happens in club or party environments. I've never had this go on unless the aggressor was putting on a show & trying to impress someone.

Just to clarify, I was using "sucker punch" as coming from someone you aren't facing or someone that you haven't squared off with. I've never been hit in the back of the head, but folks have tried to sucker punch me from the side.

Besides ninja crap, I don't think that you can really train for a sucker punch to the back of the head short of doing to neck exercises and taking some shots to the back of the head & then turning to engage. This is where awareness & communication among the door staff (or maybe your friends) really pays off. A look from someone facing behind you can warn you enough so that you can duck your head or something.

Thats just me.

edited tio fix quote


Edited by MattJ (07/03/07 08:09 PM)

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#252336 - 07/03/07 03:52 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Cord

Thanks for the swift reply.

The video you posted Im afraid I couldnt take it seriouse. There are some other videos of some decent/ half decent fights but I think a password is required. Your explanations while valid in some sense dont change anything. Even southpaws can go off balance. No disrespect to Tyson. I would rather some one take the first step as me doing a pre-emptive strike thats if I hadnt already left. If my would be attacker was stupid enough to allow my pre-emptive strike to connect then he cant be worth much can he? If he was good perhaps he is inviting it? More the fool me for allowing myself to be goaded. Regards the build up and esculation before a fight then I think anybody who goes/ has to go through that ritual rarely is the hard guy you described. I think they would rather do it with out fore warning in the main. Regards the courts where a prior recording might have taken place I totaly diss-aggree but that is your descision.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/03/07 03:55 PM)

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#252337 - 07/03/07 04:40 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

The video you posted Im afraid I couldnt take it seriouse




Interesting that you couldn't take it too seriously, because it was real.

Cord, I have to say I have enjoyed your posts and your description of the dance is dead on correct.

That is what fighting really is like, I sit on the forum and read a lot of posts about "real" fighting and I wonder have these guys ever actually been in a fight?

I was a bouncer myself and grew up in a city where fights were common and almost every one went down with all the pre-fight dancing Cord descibed.

Rarely have I seen 2 guys sqaure off and fight, I have never been in a fight that lasted more then a couple of seconds, and I have (almost)never seen a good fighter on the ground.

So the idea of when to strike and all the stuff that happens prior to a fight, is every bit if not more important than the actual fight itself, we trained for it but I get the feeling many or most do not.

Just some thoughts.

What I have seen bad fighters do, thats another story.


Edited by Kimo2007 (07/03/07 04:46 PM)
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#252338 - 07/03/07 04:54 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
JJ, i agree that a lot of the shouting and posturing is just that- if you re examine my last post you will see I say just that (an assertion of dominance...comes to nothing more than insults if placated....etc). But it often does lead to physical confrontation as well. If the intensity of the aggression can not be dissipated through diplomacy or removal of your presence from the aggressor, then the threat is real, and the intent is serious. Thats a pretty simple observation to make, and a quick one as well.

(You do realise this makes a brief string of posts between us without insult on either part?)

Jude33, i am not sure why exactly you cant take the footage seriously, its not glamorous, but then life seldom is.
The image of the silent dangerous guy is another sweeping stereotype often courted by the movies. Eastwood, Kurt Russell, Bruce Willis- they all romanticise this idea.
the truth is that some real 'hard men' are as mouthy as a fog horn, and verbal aggression can elevate aggression and even be a side effect of adrenaline dump. What is the difference between a battle cry, a 'kiai', and 'COME ON THEN YOU FAT F*CKER!'? They all bolster confidence, focus breathing and are designed to intimidate.
Football hooligans spend their life chanting and yelling obscenities to and fro, but they also spend the aftermath of that action belting the cr4p out of each other as well. Loud, quiet, trained, untrained- everyone who wishes to do you harm is as great a threat- you can not afford to take someone less seriously because they dont fit your mental image of a 'tough guy'.
like you said, its your choice, and i hope that no one who either agrees or disagrees with me has to try this stuff out.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252339 - 07/03/07 05:03 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

(You do realise this makes a brief string of posts between us without insult on either part?)




I suspect it's momentary, probably due to the fact that we largely agree with the subject matter in this thread (as opposed to live blade training, etc)

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#252340 - 07/03/07 05:17 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

The video you posted Im afraid I couldnt take it seriouse




Interesting that you couldn't take it too seriously, because it was real.




Evening Sir.
Can I ask is that an assumption?
a question?
an idea?
or did
a double (Jude2) of myself communicate that wrongfull thought to you from a parrellel universe where such encounters dont take place ? Maybe in that place pimps as in the video are no longer required?
Nor martial arts practioners? Therefore its the wrong thought? or person?

Either way I am not to sure how you reached that conclusion but its somewhat wrong.
But it proves a point I was thinking about. Any how far be it for me to get entangled in a verbal none productive sparring match. If you have any fighters on video then please feel free to post them.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/03/07 05:44 PM)

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#252341 - 07/03/07 06:01 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
What im trying to say is I dont think the video was for real. It looks false. Made for you tube. Actors.
Wind up right?

Jude

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#252342 - 07/03/07 06:03 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

What im trying to say is I dont think the video was for real. It looks false. Made for you tube. Actors.
Wind up right?

Jude




Man, don't you dare dis the ura shuto!!!

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