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#252233 - 05/09/06 09:38 PM When to strike?
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
I am in an interesting situation right now...

I am sort of wondering, I have somebody telling he will kick my *** and that he will get friends to help kick my***, yet they actually do nothing (except throw insults left and right)

now I wonder, when is it right to atack? If he is truly planning on fighting with me, why delay it? Why wait for his friends, why fight on his terms?

It seems these verbal insults are just very... cheap.

Now I know physical violence should only be used in self defence but I almost feel like the only way to prevent fighting many is to fight one and make an example of him.

If I do this then I would be going through a huge moral dillema though. Because he might just be a cocky guy trying to impress his girlfriend+friends.

So my questions are, when to fight? When to throw the first strike? When does verbal abuse/threats escalate to a level to where physical violence is the only way to stop this pest.

Is it ever right to throw the first strike? If I don't take out this thug now, then would I have to deal with him and his "friends" later?


If I do hurt this guy, even though he verbally provoked me... would I be as guilty as him?

If I do not take him out now, he might very well pick on another person who is less capable of defending himself, so maybe beating him is the answer.

Since these insults/threats will continue can somebody tell me what I should do or what you would do if you were in my situation. The most important question I have is when do I have the right to atack?
_________________________
YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

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#252234 - 05/10/06 12:53 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
When someone steps inside of your territorial bubble (within reach) in a threatening manner you should act,quickly. However,you should do everything possible to avoid this from happening including backing up.
Good luck.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252235 - 05/10/06 03:19 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
Sorin Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Oxford, MS
From the way you describe the guy, he very possibly could just be all talk. I forsee two things happening if you start a fight with him (regardless of what he's said).

1. He gets really PO'd and really does get his friends to help beat the crap out of you.

2. He runs away crying and might leave you alone, but this type of person typically doesn't learn from his mistakes, he will just pick someone else who won't fight back.

1 is obvously not a desirable situation.
2, however good it might be for you, won't change anything about him more then likely. (9 times out of 10).

Even if he's shouting at the top of his lungs that he's gonna lay you out, if he doesn't make a move toward you, then I don't think you can legally (in school or out) do anything physical to him.

Also, I don't think I need to remind you of what would happen if you get caught fighting by school or police. (expulsion/arrest)

Always keep a level head and remember words are words, and can't give you a bloody lip.
Sorin

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#252236 - 05/10/06 10:27 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Sorin]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Just shrug it off and ignore him if possible, I know it's tough but as far as I can tell this kid really is all talk, and is probably very insecure and doubts his own abilities, he needs to try and prove himself, and needs his buddies to help because he is afraid of getting the crap beaten out of him and looking bad.
Don't waste your time with the little jerk. Next time he starts giving you trouble just say whatever, uh huh, and go about your business, and if that doesn't work tell him to screw off. As was stated before, do not fight him unless he comes up and get's within arms reach of you roughly in a hostile and threatening manner and/or makes physical contact with you in a threatening manner and then give him a good stiff shot in the solar plexus with a liberal amount of power and watch him go to his knees, then if he comes at you again slug him in the nose. You want to avoid hitting targets like the face at first because it does more damage, leavs a mess and you get in trouble to, however if the initial attack fails, then bloodying him up a little bit will most likely end the fight and scare away his punk friends. Now that's another thing if his friends decide to jump in. In that case there are several things you can do: Run like hell and scream your head off, or accuse them all of being a bunch of panzies for ganging up on you and tell them to be men and fight one on one(I suggest that one) or start kicking them in pills and punching them in their noses while screaming and yelling at them and raising hell, kick punch elbow knee and poke eyes, creating as much chaos as possible.

Disclaimer, I am a 15 year old guy with testerone and hormones going crazy, my advice may not be the best, but it works for me. You should probably check with the more experienced guys(and gals) on here before taking my advice, good luck.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252237 - 05/10/06 12:04 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Quote:


So my questions are, when to fight? When to throw the first strike? When does verbal abuse/threats escalate to a level to where physical violence is the only way to stop this pest.





I think you've answered your own question here - fight when it stops being a pest, and starts being a threat to your safety. You can't win if you start a fight, whatever happens you'll be painted as the bad guy, so don't do it. If he hits you, hit him back. If not, let him get on with it, he'll give up at some point.

Quote:


Is it ever right to throw the first strike? If I don't take out this thug now, then would I have to deal with him and his "friends" later?





Fight him now, you'll definitely have to deal with his friends later. This ain't the movies, and in real life you don't have 'trophy' fights where the good guy get's left alone - you get revenge beatings. I know it's hard, but in terms of self-defence you just need to turn the other cheek, carry some pepper spray, and if him or his friends try anything, spray 'em - forget your MA skills, because you don't have the legal or pragmatic position to start fighting your way out.

Quote:


The most important question I have is when do I have the right to atack?




If you have to carefully think about it in order to justify it, you don't have the right. If you do it because you're angry, you don't have the right. If you have no choice, you do have the right. You haven't reached that point until someone swings at you, so don't over think it. I know it's hard, but you've got to bide your time. Good luck
_________________________
My Workout Log

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#252238 - 05/10/06 02:35 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

When someone steps inside of your territorial bubble (within reach) in a threatening manner you should act,quickly. However,you should do everything possible to avoid this from happening including backing up.
Good luck.




Ditto what Brian said.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252239 - 05/11/06 02:51 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Who said you have to strike?! One of those humiliating things a bully can encounter while pushing someone around is being thrown off balance or swept out, flipped etc. Have you ever watched an Aikido demonstration or a similar art that does not require a person to smash someone in the face, it's a beautiful work of art. No one gets hurt to much and the bad guy gets the point. Martial arts can be very violent but it doesn't have to be....think about that, the more you know the less you want to use.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#252240 - 05/11/06 04:52 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: schanne]
Revanus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 21
Loc: No ( r ) way
Everybody have a point here, i'm 16 years old and have been in a lot of situations like this. But like my brother says to me, u just have to live it through. Don't let thugs see that they have an effect on u. Ignore them, let time do it's job and things will go better. If someone looks like they are going to swing at u, walk or run away. If u are backed up in a corner and the only way out is through the thug, shake his hand while saying "hi! nice to see u!". this will surprise the thug and will give u a chance to knee him in the cohonas and run like He**. Or u can go right to the kneeing... that hurts like sh**.
But that's a last option!

C-u l8r allig8or
_________________________
"Live to win, dare to fall"

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#252241 - 05/11/06 06:27 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Pepto:

You are allowed to respond in an completely equal manner to those actions (physical or verbal) taken against you. Now it is certain there are many school policies against any form of physical fighting. Do not fight.

It is certain that verbal threats are not allowed either. Do not trade them.

Find a teacher and talk this situation through.

Never allow a threat so close that it can touch you! If it does then you failed miserably to prevent it becoming that threat. Far away they can look, or do whatever he/they wish... able to touch and you have let it get too close and helped create one part of the problem.

Avoid the avoidable, engage as the very, very last resort.
Jeff

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#252242 - 05/15/06 07:09 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
jliu Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 66
Loc: Montville, NJ, USA
If you make a preemptive strike, wouldn't you be guilty under the law?

Its all good and fair if the guy swings first and you defeat him utterly. That's self-defense, and you can't get arrested for that.

But if you know that there's a potentially dangerous person, and you provoke a fight, then thats unexcusable.

If a serial murder that lives next door to you invades your home and is about to kill you, and you kill him first, thats self-defense. But if you know there's a serial murderer next door, and go and kill him, then you're not i n a legally promising situation.

Thats my two cents.
_________________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body.

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#252243 - 06/26/06 02:19 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jliu]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
option 1
you could always go up to him when he is alone and say If you going to strike me do it now otherwise shake my hand and dont start this again.
that has worked for me on stupid little chavs who think so much of themselves that they bring their friends into it.
And If then he is stupid enough to strike you then deal with him using apropiate force.

or
option number 2
when he throws insults at you simply stay quiet and look past him(this is done looking at the t of the body, below the head on the shoulders, this way you see past him makes him lack confidence, and you can see both his fists and feet.
_________________________
club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

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#252244 - 06/26/06 05:23 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Amadeu]
Ryan_Doherty Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Australia
I would say alert the teachers of it, the sooner the better.
We have laws and authority figures to protect aswell as guide and there's nothing square in using them to your advantage. Thats just an excuse to make the threatened feel like they are less of a man for doing so and in turn help the offenders get away with their actions. They are the dogs, not you.
You will probably look back on this and laugh.
My advise is pretty much like everyone else's. Just don't worry about him. You have better things to do than get hung up in verbal exchanges. Like studying, physical activitey and chasing girls. It just shows how small-minded this person is. He's probably got a big lesson in life headded his way. From what it sounds like he may even have to repeat the lesson a few times to get the point.
As has been said, if he attacks you, defend yourself. Knock his friends respect out of him. They will soon find a new leader to make up for their lack of fathering.

One question though, why is he threatening you?


Edited by Ryan_Doherty (06/26/06 05:24 PM)
_________________________
Ryan Doherty

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#252245 - 06/26/06 05:47 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

When someone steps inside of your territorial bubble (within reach) in a threatening manner you should act quickly. However, you should do everything possible to avoid this from happening including backing up.





Brian is correct. That's exactly what you do.

We use a concept called "Critical Distance". That is the zone from the end of your reach to your body if you had your arm sticking straight out to your side. If he comes within that reach, he's now in the RED ZONE, and you act then and there to intercept that movement.

I basically TELL people to keep their distance, in not so kind of a tone of voice. This is of course, if I know someone is looking for trouble or, if I don't know the person at all and get a weird vibe from them. People have no need at all to come within your personal space unless invited.

I have told many people who’ve walked up toward me (in some bad sections of town, obviously looking for money, etc.) to "stay the F*#K back" and that if they've got anything to say, they can say it from outside of reach. That generally gets the point across. Of course, don’t be shy. You have to say it and mean it. You have to let people know that if they cross the line, they’ll have to deal with a wolverine. I don’t mean to sound cheesy, but that’s the truth of the matter.

Of course I never met a lot of new friends that way either, but you know, I don’t need anymore of those anyway.


-John

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#252246 - 08/12/06 04:51 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
most of the time these guys are all talk, in fact im in the same situation with someone at school. The best thing to do is to ignore them, but dont hesitate in showing him whos boss if he approaches, or threatens you. Oh yeah you probably know guys are 10000% more likely to start you when they are with their mates, so id avoid his group, but he shouldnt do anything on his own. ( and if he does you know what to do ;D)
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#252247 - 08/20/06 02:15 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: crablord]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
It looks like this thread was started some time back; I hope your issues have been resolved. If not I would like to toss my .02 in

1) Talk to your instructor.

He knows you and your abilities. He may even know the other person in question. This does two things, one – it shows your respect for his opinion and for him and Two – he will be in a better position to explain how and when to deal with this if you end up needing to. Explaining the intricacies of when and when not to swing would be almost impossible in a text-based forum.

2) If it’s an option, work with the best/fastest in your MA class as often as it is possible.

Primarily this will help your MA skills and that is always a good thing. It also has the secondary benefit of getting you used to seeing some one who is truly fast. This offers a unique benefit of making the average person look amazingly slow. It’s hard to explain but it’s almost surreal.

I hope things turnout well for you,
-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252248 - 08/20/06 10:32 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
mleone Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 21
Give him many ways out of the fight verbally... This means show him you dont want to fight...This brings his guard down..makes him over confident.

Your personal space is about arms length distance...
No one but family, and girlfreinds should be in this space.
If he comes in this space at least 2 times and verbally says "Im going to kick your butt".

Then its an ample time to stirke..
He threatened you and he is encroaching your personal space.
But you have to give him ways out of the fight. If he doesnt take them. Switch gears mentally..


Here are some parameters..
1. He has the ability (he is larger than you)
2. He displays the intent (verbally) (I want to kick your butt) etc
3. You gave him ways "out of the fight". Tell him you dont want to fight.

4. Encroached your personal space.. (No one has permission to be in your personal space) Except loved ones! This is a tool of domination..

If all of the above ring true. Then clock him in the face..
No one can draw a line for you only you can, not even a teacher or Instructor..
Your instructor is not fighting you are...

Keep both hands up while your talking.

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#252249 - 08/20/06 12:51 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: mleone]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

If all of the above ring true. Then clock him in the face..
No one can draw a line for you only you can, not even a teacher or Instructor..
Your instructor is not fighting you are...




You left out – Random person from the Internet
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252250 - 08/20/06 02:02 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
mleone Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 21
Random person on the internet can not even draw the line.
But can offer fairly sound advice..
There is no absolutes there never was..
Some try to train in just the black and white areas. But they leave out the grey areas.
Such as knowing when to strike.. Its not a cut and dry solution..
Its all really quite instinctual and intution based...

But when you give him all ways out and he still wants to fight. Then you have ruled out the possibility of him ever leaving you alone.. When you ruled that out. A much clearer picture appears..


Edited by mleone (08/20/06 02:10 PM)

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#252251 - 08/31/06 12:04 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: mleone]
Bloody_Barbs Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 15
If you absolutely have to fight, make sure he throws the first punch with reliable and honest people around, as long as they throw the first punch it is defending yourself unless you kick when they are down etc. Gl!

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#252252 - 10/29/06 09:54 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jliu]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
A pre-emptive strike is key to self defense. And its legal in most places. Check your local laws, if thats a worry to you. Most of the time you can tell the difference between a talker and someone who has the intent to hurt you. Use your instincts.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#252253 - 10/30/06 09:56 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Chen Zen]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
Quote:

A pre-emptive strike is key to self defense. And its legal in most places. Check your local laws, if thats a worry to you. Most of the time you can tell the difference between a talker and someone who has the intent to hurt you. Use your instincts.



Didn't President Bush make it so that pre-emptive strikes are not only legal but are the "cool" thing to do?

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#252254 - 10/30/06 10:23 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: vegantkd]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
lol yeah... But to be fair, I was doing it long before he was.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#252255 - 11/30/06 09:48 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: vegantkd]
Shouji Offline
Member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 272
Loc: VA
Depends on where you live. I live in Northern VA, and I would get my ass locked up if I threw the first punch (hurrah liberalville)
_________________________
The only thing a belt is good for is to hold your pants up

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#252256 - 01/17/07 09:20 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Sorin]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
I would wait for the other guy to hit me first, that way if i get in trouble by the principal i can say that he started it and i was only defending myself.

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#252257 - 01/19/07 05:23 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
TaeKwonBoxer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 140
Quote:

I am in an interesting situation right now...

I am sort of wondering, I have somebody telling he will kick my *** and that he will get friends to help kick my***, yet they actually do nothing (except throw insults left and right)

now I wonder, when is it right to atack? If he is truly planning on fighting with me, why delay it? Why wait for his friends, why fight on his terms?

It seems these verbal insults are just very... cheap.

Now I know physical violence should only be used in self defence but I almost feel like the only way to prevent fighting many is to fight one and make an example of him.

If I do this then I would be going through a huge moral dillema though. Because he might just be a cocky guy trying to impress his girlfriend+friends.

So my questions are, when to fight? When to throw the first strike? When does verbal abuse/threats escalate to a level to where physical violence is the only way to stop this pest.

Is it ever right to throw the first strike? If I don't take out this thug now, then would I have to deal with him and his "friends" later?


If I do hurt this guy, even though he verbally provoked me... would I be as guilty as him?

If I do not take him out now, he might very well pick on another person who is less capable of defending himself, so maybe beating him is the answer.

Since these insults/threats will continue can somebody tell me what I should do or what you would do if you were in my situation. The most important question I have is when do I have the right to atack?




I had a simular situation as this, I play baseball for my high school and there was this kid who constantly talked [censored] about me, and hit on my girlfreind, i just let it go, and it escalted to him stealing my jacket and pissin on it. I never saw the kid again, but my anger soared, until i saw him the other day at a baseball meeting, and decided to end it there, i pretty much beat him into pulp, guess what? he doesnt say anything about me! and hmm neither does anyone else? i wonder why?!

One can only take so much before an ass whoping is in order.
_________________________
'Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the Attack.'--Sun Tzu

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#252258 - 01/19/07 06:50 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: TaeKwonBoxer]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Quote:


I had a simular situation as this, I play baseball for my high school and there was this kid who constantly talked [censored] about me, and hit on my girlfreind, i just let it go, and it escalted to him stealing my jacket and pissin on it. I never saw the kid again, but my anger soared, until i saw him the other day at a baseball meeting, and decided to end it there, i pretty much beat him into pulp, guess what? he doesnt say anything about me! and hmm neither does anyone else? i wonder why?!

One can only take so much before an ass whoping is in order.





. Wow...just....wow. Remind me not to come to your high school, I don't like to be around total jerks....

How is your situation even REMOTELY similar? Pepto is being thretened, you are not. Pepto is in a self-defense situation, you are beating people up to maintain your ego.

Are you proud that you beat this guy up? Do you feel like a big man now? Cause you're not.

And no one else talks about you because clearly you have an anger problem, and are a total jackass.

Self- DEFENSE buddy

Frankly, I'd like the guy you beat up to post on here, so we can advise him to tell the authorities and get your butt expelled.

Seriously, grow up.
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#252259 - 01/19/07 08:26 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: TaeKwonBoxer]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Quote:

Quote:

I am in an interesting situation right now...

I am sort of wondering, I have somebody telling he will kick my *** and that he will get friends to help kick my***, yet they actually do nothing (except throw insults left and right)

now I wonder, when is it right to atack? If he is truly planning on fighting with me, why delay it? Why wait for his friends, why fight on his terms?

It seems these verbal insults are just very... cheap.

Now I know physical violence should only be used in self defence but I almost feel like the only way to prevent fighting many is to fight one and make an example of him.

If I do this then I would be going through a huge moral dillema though. Because he might just be a cocky guy trying to impress his girlfriend+friends.

So my questions are, when to fight? When to throw the first strike? When does verbal abuse/threats escalate to a level to where physical violence is the only way to stop this pest.

Is it ever right to throw the first strike? If I don't take out this thug now, then would I have to deal with him and his "friends" later?


If I do hurt this guy, even though he verbally provoked me... would I be as guilty as him?

If I do not take him out now, he might very well pick on another person who is less capable of defending himself, so maybe beating him is the answer.

Since these insults/threats will continue can somebody tell me what I should do or what you would do if you were in my situation. The most important question I have is when do I have the right to atack?




I had a simular situation as this, I play baseball for my high school and there was this kid who constantly talked [censored] about me, and hit on my girlfreind, i just let it go, and it escalted to him stealing my jacket and pissin on it. I never saw the kid again, but my anger soared, until i saw him the other day at a baseball meeting, and decided to end it there, i pretty much beat him into pulp, guess what? he doesnt say anything about me! and hmm neither does anyone else? i wonder why?!

One can only take so much before an ass whoping is in order.





Some guys NEED to get beat up before they realise how much of a [censored] they are being to others, they just think they are so hard and can bother anyone. Atleast you made him realise how much of a fool he was being, i doubt he will do it again seeing how bad you embarrased him, you taught him a lesson and i dont think he'll want to do it again on someone else unless he wants to get beat up by them too.

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#252260 - 01/19/07 08:49 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
TaeKwonBoxer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 140
Quote:

Quote:


I had a simular situation as this, I play baseball for my high school and there was this kid who constantly talked [censored] about me, and hit on my girlfreind, i just let it go, and it escalted to him stealing my jacket and pissin on it. I never saw the kid again, but my anger soared, until i saw him the other day at a baseball meeting, and decided to end it there, i pretty much beat him into pulp, guess what? he doesnt say anything about me! and hmm neither does anyone else? i wonder why?!

One can only take so much before an ass whoping is in order.





. Wow...just....wow. Remind me not to come to your high school, I don't like to be around total jerks....

How is your situation even REMOTELY similar? Pepto is being thretened, you are not. Pepto is in a self-defense situation, you are beating people up to maintain your ego.

Are you proud that you beat this guy up? Do you feel like a big man now? Cause you're not.

And no one else talks about you because clearly you have an anger problem, and are a total jackass.

Self- DEFENSE buddy

Frankly, I'd like the guy you beat up to post on here, so we can advise him to tell the authorities and get your butt expelled.

Seriously, grow up.




The dude [censored] on my jacket, my 100 doller jacket, and it was the season I KNEW it was going to start up again, and im not bragging, i catch stuff EVERYDAY and ive never escalted it to this, so don't harras me for something you don't know, i did the right thing and the kid has said hes wanted to fight me for a long time, in fact i backed out of a fight at the end of last season (this is when he [censored] on my jacket)

It is people like you that allow [censored] like this to not be repremanded, you need to stop living in liberalville and relize when people are not stopped they feel like they can do anything, and DO escalate it, COUGH HITLER COUGH COUGH


Edited by TaeKwonBoxer (01/19/07 08:53 PM)
_________________________
'Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the Attack.'--Sun Tzu

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#252261 - 01/20/07 01:34 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: TaeKwonBoxer]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
TKB,

First off, it’s a forum people will ALWAYS assume the worst; still cant figure out why though. But you should know that your “liberalville” and “Hitler” comments are a bit misplaced and wont help your cause much.

Second, personally I would’ve hammered him in mid-stream, and then beat the snot out of him with his unit hanging out. Since you held out until later – I assume it was last season he “wet your jacket” - it doesn’t even remotely come across as self-defense but more like assault.

Still though your point was valid – to a point…
Quote:

when people are not stopped they feel like they can do anything




And like was said earlier…
Quote:

Some guys NEED to get beat up



One-way to look at it, is you may have saved the guy a SERIOUS ars wuppin’ or you may have saved someone else from one – these tend to be hard lessons to learn and even harder to forget.

Hope you enjoy the season, in peace…

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252262 - 01/20/07 01:38 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
UofM

Take a deep breath, it will be ok…

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252263 - 01/20/07 01:06 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
TaeKwonBoxer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 140
Quote:

TKB,

First off, it’s a forum people will ALWAYS assume the worst; still cant figure out why though. But you should know that your “liberalville” and “Hitler” comments are a bit misplaced and wont help your cause much.

Second, personally I would’ve hammered him in mid-stream, and then beat the snot out of him with his unit hanging out. Since you held out until later – I assume it was last season he “wet your jacket” - it doesn’t even remotely come across as self-defense but more like assault.

Still though your point was valid – to a point…
Quote:

when people are not stopped they feel like they can do anything




And like was said earlier…
Quote:

Some guys NEED to get beat up



One-way to look at it, is you may have saved the guy a SERIOUS ars wuppin’ or you may have saved someone else from one – these tend to be hard lessons to learn and even harder to forget.

Hope you enjoy the season, in peace…

-JBC-




Sorry, but i also told the coach about it afterword, and his responce was "boys will be boys" so i knew this year id have to stop it right away or go through that miserable season all over again
_________________________
'Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the Attack.'--Sun Tzu

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#252264 - 01/20/07 03:56 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: TaeKwonBoxer]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Sounds to me like you did what was needed only a bit late. I had a similar issue in HS. A guy followed me outside and decided to spit his gum in my face, I had enough at this point so I threw a hard right. He did not see it coming and all he did to “block it” was flutter his eyes. Fortunate for him I pulled it and only left a nice knuckle sized dot on his face. When he changed targets from me to my friend from Cambodia he ended up in the hospital; after he got out he left the school. Sometimes you just need to say enough.

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252265 - 01/20/07 06:13 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
TaeKwonBoxer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 140
Quote:

Sounds to me like you did what was needed only a bit late. I had a similar issue in HS. A guy followed me outside and decided to spit his gum in my face, I had enough at this point so I threw a hard right. He did not see it coming and all he did to “block it” was flutter his eyes. Fortunate for him I pulled it and only left a nice knuckle sized dot on his face. When he changed targets from me to my friend from Cambodia he ended up in the hospital; after he got out he left the school. Sometimes you just need to say enough.

-JBC-




hahaha good for you, people like to forget how much high school sucks
_________________________
'Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the Attack.'--Sun Tzu

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#252266 - 01/23/07 03:44 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: TaeKwonBoxer]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Why did he spit gum on you? There obviously must be a reason, maybe he thinks you guys were weak and seeing your friend got beat up he was probably right about it.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (01/23/07 03:44 PM)

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#252267 - 01/24/07 02:30 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

Why did he spit gum on you? There obviously must be a reason, maybe he thinks you guys were weak and seeing your friend got beat up he was probably right about it.




Thank you for your reply. It was well thought out and concisely delivered.

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252268 - 01/24/07 03:39 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Sorry if i tried to sound alittle rude bro, didnt actually mean to sound like that at all. But are you guys enemies or is there some other reason?

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#252269 - 01/24/07 03:52 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

But are you guys enemies or is there some other reason?



Well actually you where correct the first time, he assumed that because he could verbally make fun of me – and trust me he abused that privilege – that he could physically do what he wanted. He made a mistake with me. As far as my friend being concerned, I think you misread my post. The “he” part never changed the “he” that ended up in the hospital was not my friend it was the other guy – he made the same mistake twice, the second time he paid a higher price. After rereading I can see how you got confused.

As far as sounding rude, not so much - it came across more like trolling really; I think you could’ve done better…

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#252270 - 01/24/07 07:22 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
OOH. I thought by "he" you meant your friend.

Well, just like i said before, some guys need to get beat up before they realise how much of an ass they are being.

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#252271 - 01/25/07 09:25 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
TaeKwonBoxer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 140
Quote:

OOH. I thought by "he" you meant your friend.

Well, just like i said before, some guys need to get beat up before they realise how much of an ass they are being.




amen to that
_________________________
'Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the Attack.'--Sun Tzu

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#252272 - 03/07/07 12:49 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
ustpatrick Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 2
in my experience its really up to you, if you suspect someone is gonna walk by and stab you then attack first dont wait until the knife is drawn and its already in you a good indicator that someone is going to attack is they walk at you in a hurried pace and have their fists clenched, but usually i wont attack until they make the first move.

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#252273 - 03/12/07 08:37 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: ustpatrick]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Old thread but...first thing, register a complaint with the police. Tell so and so has been threating me with physical violence. The police will more than likely not do anything about it, but if something goes down and you end up in court, it MIGHT help.
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#252274 - 03/13/07 04:02 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
TenteiKarite Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Euclid, Oh, USA
I often find that people who claim to be able to "Kick your ***" oftentimes can't and are just using that threat as a way of gaining control over you, however little it may grant.

all you can do, until he actually attempts the ***-kicking, is find the flaws in his verbal abuses, throw them back at him and tell authority figures what's going on.

If he approaches you menacingly, with a clear intent of starting something (clenched fists are a popular cue, as is a dragonball-z-esque-furrowed-brows glare)it is often best to strike quickly, and so that he won't be able to fight back easily. A quick jab or backfist to the nose is an optimal attack for this. if his friends have any mental capacity at all, they'll notice their buddy dropping, and figure it best not to agitate you further.

HOWEVER. Strike only after exhausting all other resources. Tell teachers, parents, adults, etc. Alert anyone in power that there may be a conflict and, although they probably won't do anything, you can use that to avoid trouble, simply because you TRIED to avoid it.

hope I've helped.

-T/K
_________________________
Raigenko>you

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#252275 - 04/02/07 09:26 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
Z498 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 11
I would say the best time is probably when you know he isn't expecting it but find a way to egg him on so you don't in alot of trouble.

You don't want your fight to start out like remember that.

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#252276 - 04/05/07 05:27 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
"If I don't take out this thug now, then would I have to deal with him and his "friends" later?"

The sad fact is this thug's friend are likely to become involved regardless.

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#252277 - 04/19/07 05:40 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
reckling67 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2
If you think this kid is going to start swinging, get the first hit. In a street fight hitting first is very important.

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#252278 - 06/30/07 06:51 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: reckling67]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
When to stike?

First & Last! Just don't swing first if you can help it. Witnesses don't get "preemptive" yet...

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#252279 - 06/30/07 03:15 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

When to stike?

First & Last! Just don't swing first if you can help it. Witnesses don't get "preemptive" yet...




So you really mean 'second and last'
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#252280 - 06/30/07 03:27 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Quote:

When to stike?

First & Last! Just don't swing first if you can help it. Witnesses don't get "preemptive" yet...





So you really mean 'second and last'




If that isn't what I said, then it isn't what I meant

i.e. a swing doesn't guarantee a strike.

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#252281 - 06/30/07 03:43 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Pedantic logic may make you feel better, but does nothing to sway the reader away from the contradiction in your initial post.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252282 - 06/30/07 03:55 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Pedantic logic may make you feel better, but does nothing to sway the reader away from the contradiction in your initial post.




That's funny, I thought that the difference between "swing" and "strike" was elementary.

Does anyone here besides Cord not know that there is a difference?

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#252283 - 06/30/07 04:02 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
If physical confrontation is inevitable, then allowing your aggressor the first 'swing' on the grounds that you feel you are guaranteed to parry/evade it is at best foolish arrogance. If you need to defend your personal safety then acting in a pre-emptive fashion is by far the best decision you can make, and the reasoning behind it is well catered for in the legal interpretation of self defence.

Catchy little phrases like 'strike first and last' are the bedfellow of the pre-emptive philosophy, so your use in context of reactive, not pro-active defence strategy is confusing.
Strange that many people are having difficulty following you train of thought. When you are misunderstood by many, it is often wise to look at the shortcomings in your own communicative skills, instead of casting scorn on those trying to make sense of your ramblings.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252284 - 06/30/07 07:13 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

If physical confrontation is inevitable, then allowing your aggressor the first 'swing' on the grounds that you feel you are guaranteed to parry/evade it is at best foolish arrogance. If you need to defend your personal safety then acting in a pre-emptive fashion is by far the best decision you can make, and the reasoning behind it is well catered for in the legal interpretation of self defence.

Catchy little phrases like 'strike first and last' are the bedfellow of the pre-emptive philosophy, so your use in context of reactive, not pro-active defence strategy is confusing.
Strange that many people are having difficulty following you train of thought. When you are misunderstood by many, it is often wise to look at the shortcomings in your own communicative skills, instead of casting scorn on those trying to make sense of your ramblings.




But when folks pretend to not understand you simply because they disagree with you , the scorn tends to flow so easily...

Quote:

When to stike?

First & Last!




So you agree with this, right?




Just don't swing first if you can help it. Witnesses don't get "preemptive" yet...




Here, I'll expand on my original thought...

You're a Security Officer, right? Ever heard of the Fence? A non-threatening stance that makes preemptive strikes all that much easier? & which also allows you to beat the other guy to the punch as soon as he winds up or chambers? You even have an intercepting hand ready to deal with that initial punch easily and then riposte effectively?

Can you see the validity of what I said now?


Edited by Jim_Judy (06/30/07 07:16 PM)

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#252285 - 06/30/07 11:01 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

"!When to stike?

First & Last!"

So you agree with this, right?




I agree with it within the context of pre-emptive strike as I qualified it. I do not agree with letting someone 'have a go' at hitting you first to placate strangers watching the altercation

Quote:

You're a Security Officer, right? Ever heard of the Fence? A non-threatening stance that makes preemptive strikes all that much easier? & which also allows you to beat the other guy to the punch as soon as he winds up or chambers? You even have an intercepting hand ready to deal with that initial punch easily and then riposte effectively?




Used it, but not as an intercepting tool, more a spatial control from which to de-escalate, or take control pre-emptively if it becomes clear de-escalation is not an option.

Quote:

Can you see the validity of what I said now?




You didnt say that intialy. There was no talk of 'fences' or anything else of that nature, merely

Quote:

Just don't swing first if you can help it. Witnesses don't get "preemptive" yet...




Which I disagree with completely. Courts, CCTV, witnesses all tend to be able to see clearly when you have been pushed into a situation you cant get out of without violence. That is why, after working in security in some form or another over a 15 year period, I have a clean criminal record whilst believing in, and practicing pre-emptive tactics. It comes with sound judgement and experience. If you feel you lack those things, then by all means let them take their best shot first.


Edited by Cord (06/30/07 11:02 PM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252286 - 06/30/07 11:37 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Pedantic logic may make you feel better...



Hmmm...
Quote:

...it is often wise to look at the shortcomings in your own communicative skills, instead of casting scorn on those trying to make sense of your ramblings.



"ramblings"?
Quote:

It comes with sound judgement and experience. If you feel you lack those things, then by all means let them take their best shot first.


So... now I lack sound judgement and experience?

Why do you feel the need to insult and degrade me? Simply for the fact that I don't agree with you? Or is it something else?

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#252287 - 06/30/07 11:51 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I did not insult or degrade you. My observation is that those who wait for a physical attack to begin need something to react to, whereas those who have been in that situation many times, gain the confidence in their judgement to use pro-action in dealing with aggression.

I notice that your latest post chooses not to answer directly the issues I took with the actual points you made.


Edited by Cord (06/30/07 11:52 PM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#252288 - 07/01/07 12:59 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
I agree with you, but when working in security, you have different responsibilities and a different level of credibility than the average joe.
Preemptive might work for you, but when you're not on the door, & he's got witnesses (or friends with him) & you don't, things work differently.

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#252289 - 07/01/07 01:08 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

I did not insult or degrade you.




YES YOU DID. Why don't you ask oldman to read your post to see if it's all above board and kosher.

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#252290 - 07/01/07 01:37 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

Just don't swing first if you can help it. Witnesses don't get "preemptive" yet...




Which I disagree with completely. Courts, CCTV, witnesses all tend to be able to see clearly when you have been pushed into a situation you cant get out of without violence. That is why, after working in security in some form or another over a 15 year period, I have a clean criminal record whilst believing in, and practicing pre-emptive tactics. It comes with sound judgement and experience. If you feel you lack those things, then by all means let them take their best shot first.




There is no insult in this post. Many people have expressed qualms regarding when exactly is right to use a pre-emptive action. I merely posted my observation (through personal experience) that such judgement calls get easier with frequency of exposure to such situations.

You have yet to comment on the discrepancy between you first post on this subject, and your elaboration.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252291 - 07/01/07 03:41 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

There is no insult in this post.



Yes there is. You can try to be as sly as you like, but you're the one that accused me of being pedantic. You know what? I AM.
I'm getting my B.A. in Linguistics. What did you get your degree in?

Quote:

Many people have expressed qualms regarding when exactly is right to use a pre-emptive action. I merely posted my observation (through personal experience) that such judgement calls...




Sure you did.

& I posted my opinion, "to Strike First and Last, but don't swing first if you can help it."
What kind of situation would motivate someone to swing first? A situation identified by an informed and trained individual that violence was forthcoming and inevitable.

Hence, we can't help but strike first if we want to take advantage of the situation and survive.

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#252292 - 07/01/07 05:31 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: pepto_bismol]
sopredictable Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 13
Loc: New Zealand
IGNORE
_________________________
Nobody is perfect...except the captain

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#252293 - 07/01/07 07:11 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I'm getting my B.A. in Linguistics. What did you get your degree in?




I am currently getting my B.A. in making sense of Jim Judy. Its a tough course.

Quote:

I posted my opinion, "to Strike First and Last, but don't swing first if you can help it."




Quote:

What kind of situation would motivate someone to swing first? A situation identified by an informed and trained individual that violence was forthcoming and inevitable.




Quote:

Hence, we can't help but strike first if we want to take advantage of the situation and survive.




you do see, right there, in text, a direct contradiction in your own argument. I broke it down to 3 quotes to show the strange U-turn in the progression, and will offer a direct translation breakdown of the thought they entail.

1st quote: "never throw the first punch. always ensure that the aggressor is seen to throw the first attack, just make sure it misses."

2nd Quote: "in the event of a confrontation, someone of experience can identify when an aggressor is likely to become physical and pre-empt it, thus negating the need for the 'first swing' i insisted on in my first quote"

3rd quote:" Whilst in the first quote I recommended letting the aggressor get the first opertunity to attack physicaly, it is essential that you, the attacked strike first in order to ensure the best chance of surviving the encounter.

From 'let them attack', through to 'get in there first' all in the space of one paragraph.

If you are doing linguistics I have only one comment- study harder. your coherence in both argument and prose is lacking.

i should point out at this juncture that at any time i get involved in a heated debate on here, I always ask MattJ and others for feedback on my conduct, and I have also forwarded a fully checkable academic CV to Chris Caille prior to taking on my role as moderator on the strength and health and nutrition fora. My credentials have been posted on numerous threads over the years, so, as you are so fond of suggesting to us, 'do your own search'.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252294 - 07/01/07 07:45 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
cord.
awesomeness.

For me personally I have mixed feelings on the preemptive strike.
when the situation calls for it I guess..
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#252295 - 07/01/07 10:29 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: crablord]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Jim Judy -

Are you finding it a little tough here to get your points across?

Most of what you do seems to consist of arguing along personal topics. What you AREN'T doing is getting anyone to see your points of view on topics relating to martial arts. If you even HAVE any.

So its been somewhat tough hasn't it? Perhaps you might one day ask why that is?

I'm quite sure that your answer to this dilemma is that it's everyone else, right? WE'RE all the screw-ups here while YOU are the only one with any sense, right?

Thats what you would label as a classic character disorder. Were you aware of that?

Still not convinced that you might want to slightly adjust your posting style? Don't know. Just asking. It could help because you've obviously something to say regarding martial arts. It would be a shame if none here ever got to the point where they could actually SEE what those points of view were, right?

The thing is, you're making it difficult for folks to get anything you're trying to say because you're either trying to talk AT them, make personal arguments or just simply being a general ass.

The choice is yours. I'm just trying to provide constructive criticism. You can continue along these lines and accomplish nothing (and perhaps get banned) or you can try and adjust your approach, having a little more empathy with others and patience on your part.

It sure doesn't seem like you're getting anywhere with your CURRENT approach. Most folks with any reasonable intelligence would try and alter their course by now (I would think).


-John

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#252296 - 07/01/07 05:12 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: JKogas]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Interesting points raised (when you cut away the crap).

I think possibly the point JJ is making is somewhat similar to my own views on pre-emptive striking. That is to not start to move first, but to land first.
Cord, you said,

"If physical confrontation is inevitable, then allowing your aggressor the first 'swing' on the grounds that you feel you are guaranteed to parry/evade it is at best foolish arrogance"

I do not agree.
It is, I think, fairly easy to achieve through good positioning from the outset. If you allow an aggressor to line you up for a strike then you are in trouble and the possibility of intercepting an attack becomes less and less realistic. However through good body position you can control the situation without having to resort to launching a pre-emptive strike.
Even neanderthals loaded with drink can recognise when they are out manoeuvered.

Just my opinion. Like everyone else, I am entitled to mine, so let's play nicely from now on, shall we?
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#252297 - 07/01/07 05:33 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: JKogas]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
I posted Strike First and Last, but don't to swing first if you can help it.

I then posted on the Fence, which is a visibly non-aggressive posture which will enable one to both defend against a punch easier and also beat most anyone to the punch as soon as you see them chamber or wind up. Anyone observing such a situation would say that the "fencer" was well within his rights, justified in his actions.

Just as CrabLord stated,"When the situation calls for it".

I respect the use of the preemptive strike, but not everyone works in a security or LE capacity, where they are given a higher level of credibility or where they are trained to observe developments in a conflict and are able to determine when things have taken a turn for the worst.

Now, if there was some question about what was meant in the first post, anyone that cared to could have said,"What do you mean?", rather than starting some week semantic arguments or attempting to insult.

Quote:

you do see, right there, in text, a direct contradiction in your own argument. I broke it down to 3 quotes to show the strange U-turn in the progression, and will offer a direct translation breakdown of the thought they entail....




The effective words were "if you can help it", which is being glossed over for some reason.

A situation when you wouldn't be able to help it is one that your training had red-flagged as impending, unavoidable violence, for whatever reason. I've had five people look at this conversation and they don't understand where the confusion is.

Quote:

i should point out at this juncture that at any time i get involved in a heated debate on here, I always ask MattJ and others for feedback on my conduct, and I have also forwarded a fully checkable academic CV to Chris Caille prior to taking on my role as moderator on the strength and health and nutrition fora. My credentials have been posted on numerous threads over the years, so, as you are so fond of suggesting to us, 'do your own search'.




For most anyone here, that is what the "profile" section is for. Now, there are folks here that post with extreme "authority", almost arrogance, and yet besides being able to see that they have 5000+ posts in the last two years, one learns almost nothing from looking at the profile. I'm not inclined to search through the entirety of someone's posting history do simply come to the conclusion that they're spouting the established party line, I don't have the time. & it's unreasonable to demand that of anyone that isn't getting paid for the effort.

In conclusion, if someone wants to try and get into a semantic argument over the definitions of "Strike" and "Swing", they can just use a dictionary. It's a waste of time to me. A swing is absolutely no guarantee of a strike. You never hear someone say,"I struck him in the face with this stick, but I missed".

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#252298 - 07/01/07 05:39 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: McSensei]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

I think possibly the point JJ is making is somewhat similar to my own views on pre-emptive striking. That is to not start to move first, but to land first.





Exactly!

That is why I used the words "Strike" and "Swing". I thought that they were clearly defined. I guess not.

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#252299 - 07/01/07 06:15 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: JKogas]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

... or just simply being a general ass.




Why don't you lay off on the personal insults. I thought that someone else already talked to you about this...

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#252300 - 07/01/07 07:41 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I then posted on the Fence, which is a visibly non-aggressive posture which will enable one to both defend against a punch easier and also beat most anyone to the punch as soon as you see them chamber or wind up. Anyone observing such a situation would say that the "fencer" was well within his rights, justified in his actions.




You only brought this up after a couple of digs at me fell flat, and you actually decided to elaborate on your first, linguisticaly confused post. I might add that the tone you took in doing so was far more insulting than any post I made to you. I guess I must just have thicker skin.

Quote:

I respect the use of the preemptive strike, but not everyone works in a security or LE capacity, where they are given a higher level of credibility or where they are trained to observe developments in a conflict and are able to determine when things have taken a turn for the worst.




No one comes under closer scrutiny in the aftermath of a physical altercation than bouncers/security/LEO. The question becomes not only one of simple SD, but those investigating tend to become pretty picky regarding level of force used- much more so than in dealing with 'the man in the street'

Quote:

Now, if there was some question about what was meant in the first post, anyone that cared to could have said,"What do you mean?", rather than starting some week semantic arguments or attempting to insult.




I was not arguing semantics. A 'swing' is an attempted strike. As slang it merely means any punch, not necessarily a wild 'haymaker'. It is also far from guaranteed not to land right on the button. You have a ratio- strikes thrown to strikes landed, but either way, they are all strikes.
Your post in that, not unreasonable context, read as 'Hit first and last, just make sure you dont hit first if you can help it'. When I posted a qualification asking if you meant 'hit second', you merely came back with smug attitude. Maybe at that point some civil elaboration would have been appropriate?

Quote:

A situation when you wouldn't be able to help it is one that your training had red-flagged as impending, unavoidable violence, for whatever reason. I've had five people look at this conversation and they don't understand where the confusion is.




How much time do you think you actually have to make all these assessments JJ? Minutes? Hours? in either a personal or professional environment you are talking seconds. I should also qualify that in a professional environment you are not looking for a fistfight, but to restrain, so your pre-emptive action may be to restrain or ground an aggressor before they build up the final head of steam to try and hurt you.
As for your 5 people, perhaps your communicative skills are better RL, so you are not as easy to take out of context with verbal elaboration?

Quote:

Now, there are folks here that post with extreme "authority", almost arrogance




And you are making an early bid to join the club.

Quote:

and yet besides being able to see that they have 5000+ posts in the last two years, one learns almost nothing from looking at the profile. I'm not inclined to search through the entirety of someone's posting history do simply come to the conclusion that they're spouting the established party line




Profiles you can lie about. You can put anything you want. I have never felt comfortable putting a great long list of accomplishments or whatever- it seems self agrandising (sp?), therefor I give a simple encapsulation of the basic points, and trust that my input on the site will allow people to make of me what they will. So far that has worked well, I have made many friends and recieved much positive feedback from people I have helped. This site can be an incredibly positive experience if you just drop the 'new dog has to mark his territory' attitude. As for 'spouting the party line' I am a moderator, and as such I have to ensure the rules of the site are adhered to by all. If i myself overstep the mark, then MattJ moderates me. Mods are not 'gods' on here, and have been subjected to flood control and expulsion just as any other member if necessary. You dont have to like what I say, nor agree with its premise, but i have not in any way broken the rules of interaction on this thread.

Quote:

I don't have the time. & it's unreasonable to demand that of anyone that isn't getting paid for the effort.




And yet in a previous thread, you yourself stated that you could not be bothered to provide links or references to illustrate your points, and told those interested to 'research it yourself'

its this sort of haughty double standard that has got you off on such a spectacularly wrong foot with so many on this site.

Chill. Elaborate. Communicate in the spirit of sharing, not enforcing your agenda/opinion as gospel, and things may brighten up.

We were all just words on a screen to one another once, hell, cxt and mine's first interaction was a blazing row over practical shinken. I was new. I was wrong. I chilled out. I relaxed my ego. We became friends.

That may not be our destiny, but if you imbue your posts with a veneer of sarcasm and condecension at the slightest hint of being questioned, then your time here will not be happy or productive. Only a fool takes a strangers word as absolute truth. Like any social environment, you have to be guaged as a person before your opinion finds ite weight.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252301 - 07/01/07 08:43 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"Chill. Elaborate. Communicate in the spirit of sharing, not enforcing your agenda/opinion as gospel, and things may brighten up.

We were all just words on a screen to one another once, hell, cxt and mine's first interaction was a blazing row over practical shinken. I was new. I was wrong. I chilled out. I relaxed my ego. We became friends.

That may not be our destiny, but if you imbue your posts with a veneer of sarcasm and condecension at the slightest hint of being questioned, then your time here will not be happy or productive. Only a fool takes a strangers word as absolute truth. Like any social environment, you have to be guaged as a person before your opinion finds ite weight. "

Sounds like an olive branch to you there JJ. Maybe now the thread can get back on track and not keep going over who did what first.
If not I will lock the thread!
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#252302 - 07/01/07 09:14 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Why don't you lay off on the personal insults. I thought that someone else already talked to you about this...





First, it wasn't meant as an insult. Calling someone an ass these days means next to nothing. Unless you're thin skinned of course. If you are, please accept my apology.

Second, no one "talks" to me bro. Here or anywhere. They basically understand that its useless as I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do.

That's the score around here. There are other forums if you're not happy with status quo.


-John

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#252303 - 07/01/07 10:17 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Quote:

I then posted on the Fence, which is a visibly non-aggressive posture which will enable one to both defend against a punch easier and also beat most anyone to the punch as soon as you see them chamber or wind up. Anyone observing such a situation would say that the "fencer" was well within his rights, justified in his actions.




You only brought this up after a couple of digs at me fell flat, and you actually decided to elaborate on your first, linguistically confused post. I might add that the tone you took in doing so was far more insulting than any post I made to you. I guess I must just have thicker skin.




Where are these fictional digs? I'd like to see them.

Thick skin? Heh. It’s THE INTERNET.

Quote:

Quote:

I respect the use of the preemptive strike, but not everyone works in a security or LE capacity, where they are given a higher level of credibility or where they are trained to observe developments in a conflict and are able to determine when things have taken a turn for the worst.




No one comes under closer scrutiny in the aftermath of a physical altercation than bouncers/security/LEO. The question becomes not only one of simple SD, but those investigating tend to become pretty picky regarding level of force used- much more so than in dealing with 'the man in the street'




(did you even get past “higher level of credibility”?)

As stated before…

Quote:

Courts, CCTV, witnesses all tend to be able to see clearly when you have been pushed into a situation you cant get out of without violence.




Pre-emptive striking must come with training on it’s proper and justified application, or you wouldn’t “be able to see clearly when you have been pushed into a situation you cant get out of without violence.”

Quote:

Quote:

Now, if there was some question about what was meant in the first post, anyone that cared to could have said, "What do you mean?", rather than starting some weak semantic arguments or attempting to insult.




I was not arguing semantics. A 'swing' is an attempted strike. As slang it merely means any punch, not necessarily a wild 'haymaker'. It is also far from guaranteed not to land right on the button. You have a ratio- strikes thrown to strikes landed, but either way, they are all strikes.
Your post in that, not unreasonable context, read as 'Hit first and last, just make sure you dont hit first if you can help it'. When I posted a qualification asking if you meant 'hit second', you merely came back with smug attitude. Maybe at that point some civil elaboration would have been appropriate?




If I wanted to say something like that, I would have just said Hit, which would have been truly ignorant, as already stated by someone else, in no unreasonable context.
Look up Swing & Strike and tell me that they're the same thing. You can try to use some popular vernacular, but when someone is "throwing strikes", they are swinging. It only becomes a first strike when "a strike is landed".
The goal of a swing is a strike... but a swing is not a strike, I don't care about what kind of ratio argument you're trying to bring into it.
& besides, you didn't ask a question, you made a statement:

Quote:

So you really mean 'second and last'




A question requires a "?" at the end of it. If we were posting in Spanish, there would be a "?" at both ends.

Oh, & look up Semantic Argument. We're in one, whether you like it or not! I don't care what kind of slang you like to use "Semantic" for.

Quote:

Quote:

A situation when you wouldn't be able to help it is one that your training had red-flagged as impending, unavoidable violence, for whatever reason. I've had five people look at this conversation and they don't understand where the confusion is.




How much time do you think you actually have to make all these assessments JJ? Minutes? Hours? in either a personal or professional environment you are talking seconds. I should also qualify that in a professional environment you are not looking for a fistfight, but to restrain, so your pre-emptive action may be to restrain or ground an aggressor before they build up the final head of steam to try and hurt you.




We're talking about striking, not grappling.

Quote:

As for your 5 people, perhaps your communicative skills are better RL, so you are not as easy to take out of context with verbal elaboration?



I'll concede that. Entirely possible.
Of course, if I thought that Strike and Swing were the same thing, I probably would have just said Strike three times in my original post. As soon as anyone read that there is a definite difference between the two, regardless of slang, then it should have been clear what my intention was.
But no, we're in a semantic argument now. I'm right because I am, and you're right because strike & swing are often used interchangeably in a MA venue.

NOW I WOULD LIKE TO AGREE TO DROP IT. My original intentions have been made clear.

Quote:

Quote:

Now, there are folks here that post with extreme "authority", almost arrogance




And you are making an early bid to join the club.




Is-this-a-statement-or-a-question

Quote:

Quote:

and yet besides being able to see that they have 5000+ posts in the last two years, one learns almost nothing from looking at the profile. I'm not inclined to search through the entirety of someone's posting history do simply come to the conclusion that they're spouting the established party line




Profiles you can lie about. You can put anything you want. I have never felt comfortable putting a great long list of accomplishments or whatever- it seems self agrandising (sp?), therefor I give a simple encapsulation of the basic points, and trust that my input on the site will allow people to make of me what they will. So far that has worked well, I have made many friends and recieved much positive feedback from people I have helped. This site can be an incredibly positive experience if you just drop the 'new dog has to mark his territory' attitude. As for 'spouting the party line' I am a moderator, and as such I have to ensure the rules of the site are adhered to by all. If i myself overstep the mark, then MattJ moderates me. Mods are not 'gods' on here, and have been subjected to flood control and expulsion just as any other member if necessary. You dont have to like what I say, nor agree with its premise, but i have not in any way broken the rules of interaction on this thread.




Actually, I wasn't talking about you. Your profile is adequately informative and as a general rule, I take the info in a profile completely for granted until informed otherwise by either information from another credible source or a complete lack of continuity between posts and profile.

Quote:

Quote:

I don't have the time. & it's unreasonable to demand that of anyone that isn't getting paid for the effort.




And yet in a previous thread, you yourself stated that you could not be bothered to provide links or references to illustrate your points, and told those interested to 'research it yourself'




How much information had I provided up to that point? Don't take things out of context, it doesn’t help your argument...

Quote:

Chill. Elaborate. Communicate in the spirit of sharing, not enforcing your agenda/opinion as gospel, and things may brighten up.

We were all just words on a screen to one another once, hell, cxt and mine's first interaction was a blazing row over practical shinken. I was new. I was wrong. I chilled out. I relaxed my ego. We became friends.




Practical Shinken? You mean like a Paul Chen VS a Bugei VS some Japanese-made pay-per-inch jobby? Or actual app?

Quote:

That may not be our destiny, but if you imbue your posts with a veneer of sarcasm and condecension at the slightest hint of being questioned, then your time here will not be happy or productive. Only a fool takes a strangers word as absolute truth. Like any social environment, you have to be guaged as a person before your opinion finds ite weight.




I disagree. I try to give everyone a fair shake. Not the policy around her, that's okay.

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#252304 - 07/01/07 10:28 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: JKogas]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:


First, it wasn't meant as an insult. Calling someone an ass these days means next to nothing. Unless you're thin skinned of course. If you are, please accept my apology.




An apology following another slight? & my acct gets temp locked?
Yeah, that's continuity for ya...

Quote:

Second, no one "talks" to me bro. Here or anywhere. They basically understand that its useless as I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do.

That's the score around here. There are other forums if you're not happy with status quo.




If that's the "score" then I won't be replying to any more of your posts. Cool. Everyone's happy.

Maybe that's why we don't get along, your attitude creates a less-than-hospitable environment around here.


Edited by Jim_Judy (07/01/07 10:32 PM)

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#252305 - 07/01/07 10:34 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: McSensei]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Sounds like an olive branch to you there JJ. Maybe now the thread can get back on track and not keep going over who did what first.
If not I will lock the thread!




Roger that.

Thread drift was never my intention

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#252306 - 07/01/07 11:10 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: McSensei]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Cord, you said,

"If physical confrontation is inevitable, then allowing your aggressor the first 'swing' on the grounds that you feel you are guaranteed to parry/evade it is at best foolish arrogance"

I do not agree.
It is, I think, fairly easy to achieve through good positioning from the outset. If you allow an aggressor to line you up for a strike then you are in trouble and the possibility of intercepting an attack becomes less and less realistic. However through good body position you can control the situation without having to resort to launching a pre-emptive strike.
Even neanderthals loaded with drink can recognise when they are out manoeuvered.

Just my opinion. Like everyone else, I am entitled to mine, so let's play nicely from now on, shall we?




I am in agreement. I think allowing an aggressor the first move can work to the defenders advantage if the defender has trained hard enough to get the skills.
One example being
It would seem that a lot of right hand punches thrown by the average so called street fighter type leaves them totaly open and in the main off balance.
If the fight is recorded then allowing the aggressor the first move would also show who started the fight.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/01/07 11:14 PM)

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#252307 - 07/02/07 02:55 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

Cord, you said,

"If physical confrontation is inevitable, then allowing your aggressor the first 'swing' on the grounds that you feel you are guaranteed to parry/evade it is at best foolish arrogance"

I do not agree.
It is, I think, fairly easy to achieve through good positioning from the outset. If you allow an aggressor to line you up for a strike then you are in trouble and the possibility of intercepting an attack becomes less and less realistic. However through good body position you can control the situation without having to resort to launching a pre-emptive strike.
Even neanderthals loaded with drink can recognise when they are out manoeuvered.

Just my opinion. Like everyone else, I am entitled to mine, so let's play nicely from now on, shall we?




I am in agreement. I think allowing an aggressor the first move can work to the defenders advantage if the defender has trained hard enough to get the skills.
One example being
It would seem that a lot of right hand punches thrown by the average so called street fighter type leaves them totaly open and in the main off balance.
If the fight is recorded then allowing the aggressor the first move would also show who started the fight.
Jude




Jude, Not all instigators of violence are right handed. Please define 'average streetfighter type'

There are clear definitions regarding 'self defence' and the laws of legal engagement allow for an assessment that your wellbeing is threatened before any physical attack is encountered. Someone continuing to persue aggression as you attempt to make distance between you and them, someone making earnest verbal threat to harm or kill you, someone who invades personal space in a threatening posture. All very basic examples where you are legally perfectly entitled to spark them out before a physical attack begins.
Or, you can take your chances and hope they are right handed and do what you expect of them.

Jim Judy, It is indicative of your mindset since arriving here that you absorb and answer every aspect of my post, (all be it in ever increasing bizarre tangents- ?spanish? ) except the part where I offer a reasonable denoument to this tiresome journey through your convoluted mind.

You say you never intend to derail threads, yet you always seem to be involved in that very act. Maybe you are just too much of a cunning-linguist for us?
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252308 - 07/02/07 03:03 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:


Jim Judy, It is indicative of your mindset since arriving here that you absorb and answer every aspect of my post, (all be it in ever increasing bizarre tangents- ?spanish? ) except the part where I offer a reasonable denoument to this tiresome journey through your convoluted mind.

You say you never intend to derail threads, yet you always seem to be involved in that very act. Maybe you are just too much of a cunning-linguist for us?




Why, man?
If I agree to drop it, why can't you?

Oh, & it's denouement...

Actually, that big post was half done, I went & ate dinner, came back & finished it. It wasn't until after that I saw your post.


Edited by Jim_Judy (07/02/07 03:14 AM)

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#252309 - 07/02/07 03:07 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Grammar nazi...

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#252310 - 07/02/07 03:13 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


Oh, & it's denouement...




A mighty victory. you must be very pleased.

well, its easy to vent your spleen then say 'we'll stop there'. The truth of it is that you contradicted yourself on several points again in your last post directed at me, but i am losing the will to live, let alone type, so i think its time to break the thread! and walk away, break the thread! and walk away.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252311 - 07/02/07 07:03 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
....and back on topic....when to strike...
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#252312 - 07/02/07 12:09 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Gavin]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
As soon as you perceive a threat to your safety that you can't avoid by running/walking away, and you have an opening to do so effectively.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#252313 - 07/02/07 02:19 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jpoor]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
And how about someone in the Know lay out the magical mystery signs that qualify a preemptive strike for all us plebs...
I'm sure no one would like getting arrested because the grand advise off of the Internet was insufficiently informative.

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#252314 - 07/02/07 02:30 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jim -

I'm not sure that you will find those signs will be the same for everyone. The question of pre-emptive strike legitimacy (if that is what you are questioning) can be addressed on this thread here, as well:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15906601
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252315 - 07/02/07 02:55 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: MattJ]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
No, I agree with the legitimate use of Preemp, from simple assault up to justification of lethal force.

However... the law is a little different everywhere, & it isn't a good idea to be pushing this idea without at least thoroughly informing folks to get well versed in their local laws before they start thinking that this line isn't a mile wide.
I would never push this idea of "striking first" without laying down some firm groundrules, and I mean etched in stone. Then, it's up to the masses to supplement with local deviation in law.

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#252316 - 07/02/07 05:15 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I would never push this idea of "striking first"




i thought a 'swing' and a 'strike' were not the same in your definition; and did you not open your contributions to this thread with the phrase 'strike first'?

It must get awful confusing keeping up with yourself when you have such a conflicting and inconsistent nature.
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#252317 - 07/02/07 06:42 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I am in agreement. I think allowing an aggressor the first move can work to the defenders advantage if the defender has trained hard enough to get the skills.
One example being
It would seem that a lot of right hand punches thrown by the average so called street fighter type leaves them totaly open and in the main off balance.
If the fight is recorded then allowing the aggressor the first move would also show who started the fight.
Jude




Jude, Not all instigators of violence are right handed. Please define 'average streetfighter type'

There are clear definitions regarding 'self defence' and the laws of legal engagement allow for an assessment that your wellbeing is threatened before any physical attack is encountered. Someone continuing to persue aggression as you attempt to make distance between you and them, someone making earnest verbal threat to harm or kill you, someone who invades personal space in a threatening posture. All very basic examples where you are legally perfectly entitled to spark them out before a physical attack begins.
Or, you can take your chances and hope they are right handed and do what you expect of them.





Hi Cord.
I dont think I said all instigaters were right handed.
Average street fighter ? My thoughts on the average street fighter means the type who throws punches off balance,hits with the wrong part of their hands, normaly have busted knuckles, headbutts using a bad technique, attempts to get a person on the ground to kick them and is normaly wide open and untrained and more than likely have other strange traits specific to the individual.

Your description of scenarios where a person can strike first? Perhaps it might be that way in some cases but I personaly dont trust British law. If I were in a situation where it was recorded I would like things fairly clear should it go to court. More than likely that would be difficult but that is the way I would like it.

Readers in general.
Just a small point asked in a pleasent way.
Dear Sirs.
Is there any chance that some of you guys might(no one specific) leave the verbal sparring that is off topic to a different thread specific to verbal sparring if one exists?
I think this thread is interesting and it would be a shame if it was shut down.

Just asking in a pleasent manner.

Jude

edited ti fix quote


Edited by MattJ (07/02/07 07:35 PM)

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#252318 - 07/02/07 06:48 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

And how about someone in the Know lay out the magical mystery signs that qualify a preemptive strike for all us plebs...
I'm sure no one would like getting arrested because the grand advise off of the Internet was insufficiently informative.




Hi

Isnt plebs a Northern British term?
Sir.

Could I ask that we keep this thread minus insults to poor plebs?
I know some nice plebs.
Back to the topic.
I dont think there are any written guidelines to pre-emtive strikes in any law books? Might be to the whim of the police?

I havent found any guidelines but there again I am not legaly trained.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/02/07 06:59 PM)

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#252319 - 07/02/07 10:00 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Actually, the Plebians, or Plebs, were the commoners in ancient Rome.

Plebians & the Patricians (the aristocracy)

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#252320 - 07/02/07 10:10 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
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So, I try to conform with the local vernacular & you still want to bust my balls?

Just ban me now, if you can't keep it on topic.


(That's not my smiley thumb btw)


Edited by Jim_Judy (07/02/07 10:10 PM)

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#252321 - 07/02/07 10:38 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Jude33,
MattJ posted this thread from the Self Defense section.
web page
Look right at the end of the thread, some good stuff from Devil or whatever. A good general rule that I use is right along the lines of justifying lethal force (ability, opportunity, and jeopardy), just toned down for non-lethal issues of course. It's really up to someone that is actually interested using such a tactic to look into local laws, because they really do vary. If it is something that you're really interested in, look into local law, maybe talk to a cop or a lawyer that you trust, & get some folks from your school or club involved. I've seen trained guys(for years), that freeze up when faced with real intent and a little verbal abuse. I think that this kind of thing is a must for being able to use preemptive force at the most prudent times.
I agree with McSensei, things are not always as they seem and you shouldn't start wailing on folks just because you get nervous.


Edited by Jim_Judy (07/02/07 10:59 PM)

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#252322 - 07/02/07 10:44 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Jim_Judy Offline
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I would suggest that most anyone interested in this tactic (preemptive force) to simply look up info on Geoff Thompson's Fence.
Most anyone that trains Traditional Martial Arts can adapt one of their high receiving postures to this. It really does work well. Just train it.

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#252323 - 07/02/07 11:04 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
MattJ Offline
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For those that are interested, drgndrew has been kind enough to compile some of Geoff Thompson's "Dead or Alive" excerpts on this thread here -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15905133
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#252324 - 07/02/07 11:06 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: MattJ]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Thank-YOU

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#252325 - 07/03/07 09:04 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Hi Cord.
I dont think I said all instigaters were right handed.




but in your take on reactive, not pro-active defence of your safety, you have factored in that your 'typical street fighter' loses balance when they throw their right hand. You cannot project or presume a specific physical act or weakness on the behalf of your attacker, or you run an incredibly high chance of reacting to what you expect, not what is actually happening.

Quote:

Average street fighter ? My thoughts on the average street fighter means the type who throws punches off balance,hits with the wrong part of their hands, normaly have busted knuckles, headbutts using a bad technique




Thats a comforing idea. The concept that all aggressive, mean hearted persons who wish to harm for no good reason are somehow bumbling oafs that can be taken lightly and dealt with with nonchelance in any circumstance. In my experience, this is far from always the case. Sure, there are a lot of people who have a bit too much to drink and get upset waiting for taxi's/kebabs on a sturday night, but even they pose a real and authentic threat to you if they choose you as the object of their anger. Then there are others for whom the act of violence- the choosing of a 'target' the goading, escalation, and eventual physical altercation is a genuine pastime of itself. They enjoy it and do it a lot. They are often very good at it as well.

At the end of the day, if you are in real danger, it is not a stereotype that is in front of you, it is an individual, and too much presumption or underestimation will get you badly hurt.

Quote:

Your description of scenarios where a person can strike first? Perhaps it might be that way in some cases but I personaly dont trust British law. If I were in a situation where it was recorded I would like things fairly clear should it go to court. More than likely that would be difficult but that is the way I would like it.




and i would like to win the lottery, but the chances are slim. Again, if you are ever in the unfortunate position of having real violence looming, the last thing you are thinking about is how it looks to others- you dont give a sh1t about anything other than the threat itself, and given the choice between having my head kicked in, or a day in court, I will take my day in court thanks.


Quote:

Dear Sirs.
Is there any chance that some of you guys might(no one specific) leave the verbal sparring that is off topic to a different thread specific to verbal sparring if one exists?
I think this thread is interesting and it would be a shame if it was shut down.




It is an interesting topic. It is also an important topic, and advice/opinion of SD can carry real world consequences if acted upon by a reader. That is why it is vital that any opinion offered with any conviction be constant and clear. In that context, any concerns or questions I have asked of an individual have been 'on topic'.

this clip has been done to death, but it is an excellent example of the point i am making in regards to what constitutes a reasonable pre-emptive action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fhcT3tz9uQ

Did the 'pimp' 'swing' or 'strike' (choose your definition)? No

Did he 'chamber'? No

Did he ever even make a grab? No.

Does anyone here feel that the other guy was unjustified in his actions?
Is it in any way unclear as to who the aggressor was in this incident?

An attack is not just about kicks and punches people, its a combination of the physical and psychological that must be processed and assessed in micro-seconds.

Develop good pressure skills. learn to have confidence in your judgement and instinct. appraise individual situations, not pre-conceived hypothesis. Do all this, and the truth in your actions will be plain for all to see.


Edited by Cord (07/03/07 09:25 AM)
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#252326 - 07/03/07 11:30 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Quote:

Develop good pressure skills. learn to have confidence in your judgement and instinct. appraise individual situations, not pre-conceived hypothesis. Do all this, and the truth in your actions will be plain for all to see.




Do you have a lesson plan for the class, or any resources?

Oh, & I love that vid. JUDO CHOP !

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#252327 - 07/03/07 11:37 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Taison Offline
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Jim,

I'd take Cord more seriously if I were you. Quite simple, he used to work as a door-man (bouncer for you Americans), which means he has a lot of hands-on experience when it comes to altercation, and escalation of hostile situations.

Assuming that the normal 'street fighter' lacks skill, is an underestimation that has gotten people killed before. Sure, a few years ago, I might not have been able to fend for myself 1 on 1, but I could stab you if you messed with me to the point I couldn't tolerate you anymore.

Quote:

you have factored in that your 'typical street fighter' loses balance when they throw their right hand


Agreed with Cord there. You did say that. I'm right handed, but I hit with my left 90% of the time. I'm south-paw by the way.

-Taison out
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#252328 - 07/03/07 11:39 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
jpoor Offline
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Edit: quoting Cord, not J_J.

Quote:

Does anyone here feel that the other guy was unjustified in his actions?




No, and Yes. He wouldn't have had to "preempt" had he not become (willingly) involved in the first place.

Quote:

Is it in any way unclear as to who the aggressor was in this incident?




Legally, a decent lawyer could make it pretty unclear real fast. We didn't see what actions "our hero" took before the clip starts in his effort to "stop the fight."


Is defense of others always a reason to get involved? That's a whole different thread, but I'm not sure this clip was the best illustration of appropriate preemptive measures since the guy (rightly or wrongly) got involved and brought it on himself.

Just to be clear, I'm not knocking the guy for coming to the aide of a ehem,,,, damsel in distress, I've done so myself in the past, but. . .


Edited by jpoor (07/03/07 11:40 AM)
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#252329 - 07/03/07 11:54 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Develop good pressure skills. learn to have confidence in your judgement and instinct. appraise individual situations, not pre-conceived hypothesis. Do all this, and the truth in your actions will be plain for all to see.




Do you have a lesson plan for the class, or any resources?

Oh, & I love that vid. JUDO CHOP !




Would you have needed special training to understand that the pimp in that clip really meant to do you harm?

As for coping with pressure, adrenaline dump etc, there is no true training of equal intensity, all training is registered as just that, and the intent is never true, so there is no real threat to your life. However, ensuring that your training involves hard contact against fully resisting training partners is essential. It fills in some of the major pieces of the puzzle- you get used to hitting hard, and being hit hard, and dealing with the unpredictable nature of people. A bit of hard free sparring quickly shows the 'you grab there, and then I do this' drill structure to have its limits. Great for learning the technique, but little value in application of the technique thereafter. If you can punch/tackle/throw/clinch/whatever someone against their will in training, and take your lumps when you have to without panicking and squeezing your eyes shut in the hope that it will stop, then you stand a better chance of being able to deal with a SD situation.

confidence in your judgement/assessment of situations is a personal journey, usualy fueled by experience, but common sense is as good a rule of thumb as any, and you really dont need to be a psychology major to know when someone just wants to hit you no matter what you say or do, and if you cannot run, and no one is around to step in, then why on earth let them do it?
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#252330 - 07/03/07 12:04 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jpoor]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Does anyone here feel that the other guy was unjustified in his actions?




Quote:

No, and Yes. He wouldn't have had to "preempt" had he not become (willingly) involved in the first place.




but his intervention was not threatening to the man as an individual, it was a request to stop a specific action (manhandling the girl). When this request was complied with, the man (a cop on a LEO SD course apparently, btw), then turned and attempted to leave. that was the end of an incident in itself.Intervention followed by de-escalation.

The clip then shows a second incident altogether, that being the 'pimp' persuing the man aggressively.

To ask the question in a different way: though the only physical force used was by the cop, is it in any doubt that the pimp was the attacker? To me it is clear, and to a jury it would be as well. i doubt, in fact, that it would even get as far as court.


Edited by Cord (07/03/07 12:05 PM)
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#252331 - 07/03/07 12:14 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
jpoor Offline
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"The man," from what I gather is actually the instructor. I wouldn't be so sure this wouldn't end up in court. It's a crazy system we have sometimes, but that's a whole new thread.

If we cut away the issue of whether or not the guy should have gotten involved at all, then yes, it was completely justified and a "clean strike" if you ask me.

We didn't, however, see his initial intervention (unless there is a version of the clip out there that cuts in earlier) so we can't say that it does/does not present a threat to the pimp. We can't really separate the two incidents.

Still, the guy did the right thing, and the bad guy got what he deserved.
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I know even less than you might think.

Best,
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#252332 - 07/03/07 01:14 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Do you have a lesson plan for the class, or any resources?

Oh, & I love that vid. JUDO CHOP !




Would you have needed special training to understand that the pimp in that clip really meant to do you harm?

As for coping with pressure, adrenaline dump etc, there is no true training of equal intensity, all training is registered as just that, and the intent is never true, so there is no real threat to your life. However, ensuring that your training involves hard contact against fully resisting training partners is essential. It fills in some of the major pieces of the puzzle- you get used to hitting hard, and being hit hard, and dealing with the unpredictable nature of people. A bit of hard free sparring quickly shows the 'you grab there, and then I do this' drill structure to have its limits. Great for learning the technique, but little value in application of the technique thereafter. If you can punch/tackle/throw/clinch/whatever someone against their will in training, and take your lumps when you have to without panicking and squeezing your eyes shut in the hope that it will stop, then you stand a better chance of being able to deal with a SD situation.

confidence in your judgement/assessment of situations is a personal journey, usualy fueled by experience, but common sense is as good a rule of thumb as any, and you really dont need to be a psychology major to know when someone just wants to hit you no matter what you say or do, and if you cannot run, and no one is around to step in, then why on earth let them do it?




So, Hard Sparring, Being a Bouncer/Doorman and/or Common Sense? That's what you recommend to be able to use Preemptive Striking appropriately?

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#252333 - 07/03/07 01:47 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Quote:

To ask the question in a different way: though the only physical force used was by the cop, is it in any doubt that the pimp was the attacker? To me it is clear, and to a jury it would be as well. i doubt, in fact, that it would even get as far as court.




How often is it this clear? More often than not, in situations such as this, I've had to deal with a sucker punch. No one has ever bull-charged me, getting his shirt ripped off in the process by his friends trying to hold him back.

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#252334 - 07/03/07 02:35 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

So, Hard Sparring, Being a Bouncer/Doorman and/or Common Sense? That's what you recommend to be able to use Preemptive Striking appropriately?




Training in as realistic a manner as possible, using full resistance is important so as to familiarise yourself, and train your responses as best as you can to function if unfortunate enough to be attacked.

Common sense should be strived for in all walks of life, and applied at all times dont you think?

Working the door is not a requisite entry on your CV to be able to act pre-emptively, though the exposure to conflict and aggression that is inherent in the job does help improve your ability to assess such situations.
I would argue that only those with common sense, good judgement, good people skills, and confidence in their assessment of situations under pressure should do the job in the first place. A lot of firefighters hold second jobs as doorstaff for this very reason- they have the tools for the trade.

On the other side of the coin, pre-emptive action is not inherent or compulsory for door work. You have already heard Mcsensei disagree with my take on things, he is a door worker himself, so is Gavin. I am not the all singing voice of the Bouncers of the world, i am just speaking from my personal experience, and what I believe. Experiences and opinions vary.

I do not agree with your take on this as a sort of 'pro's vs plebs' kind of a deal. If you feel you have exhausted your options-if reason, placation and de-escalation have no effect, if escape is geographicaly impossible, or you have been persued and blocked in the attempt, then you would do well to accept this and put your attacker on the back foot, not allow them to start their attack at their leisure. I saw the sense in that before being involved in any form of security work.

Quote:

How often is it this clear? More often than not, in situations such as this, I've had to deal with a sucker punch. No one has ever bull-charged me, getting his shirt ripped off in the process by his friends trying to hold him back.




If the victim of a true sucker punch, then the fence is null and void because you simply havent seen it coming period.
Again, in my experience, the ritual of aggression escalation is very common. Verbal aggression, posturing, invasion of personal space, maybe even a shove (though for me that would constitute a physical attack in itself), the 'dance' before a fight is as natural as dogs growling and circling each other before the . Its part of the animal act of asserting dominance. Much of de-escalation is gratifying the sense of power in your aggressor- for some, this is enough and the worst you have to deal with is a bruised sense of pride as you walk away under a volley of insults. For some aggressor's however, this triggers a 'killer instinct', (my term, bit meladromatic, but I cant think of anything more suitable at the mo'), and then they look to assert their percieved dominance physicaly. At this point, you may as well 'lead the dance', or your partner will likely tread on your toes.
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#252335 - 07/03/07 03:08 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Quote:

Again, in my experience, the ritual of aggression escalation is very common. Verbal aggression, posturing, invasion of personal space, maybe even a shove (though for me that would constitute a physical attack in itself), the 'dance' before a fight is as natural as dogs growling and circling each other before the . Its part of the animal act of asserting dominance. Much of de-escalation is gratifying the sense of power in your aggressor- for some, this is enough and the worst you have to deal with is a bruised sense of pride as you walk away under a volley of insults. For some aggressor's however, this triggers a 'killer instinct', (my term, bit meladromatic, but I cant think of anything more suitable at the mo'), and then they look to assert their percieved dominance physicaly. At this point, you may as well 'lead the dance', or your partner will likely tread on your toes.




I would defer to your door experience, since I have less than a year (the place was shut down after the 2nd shooting, serving minors, etc), but most of the "dance" is a public show that most often happens in club or party environments. I've never had this go on unless the aggressor was putting on a show & trying to impress someone.

Just to clarify, I was using "sucker punch" as coming from someone you aren't facing or someone that you haven't squared off with. I've never been hit in the back of the head, but folks have tried to sucker punch me from the side.

Besides ninja crap, I don't think that you can really train for a sucker punch to the back of the head short of doing to neck exercises and taking some shots to the back of the head & then turning to engage. This is where awareness & communication among the door staff (or maybe your friends) really pays off. A look from someone facing behind you can warn you enough so that you can duck your head or something.

Thats just me.

edited tio fix quote


Edited by MattJ (07/03/07 08:09 PM)

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#252336 - 07/03/07 03:52 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Hi Cord

Thanks for the swift reply.

The video you posted Im afraid I couldnt take it seriouse. There are some other videos of some decent/ half decent fights but I think a password is required. Your explanations while valid in some sense dont change anything. Even southpaws can go off balance. No disrespect to Tyson. I would rather some one take the first step as me doing a pre-emptive strike thats if I hadnt already left. If my would be attacker was stupid enough to allow my pre-emptive strike to connect then he cant be worth much can he? If he was good perhaps he is inviting it? More the fool me for allowing myself to be goaded. Regards the build up and esculation before a fight then I think anybody who goes/ has to go through that ritual rarely is the hard guy you described. I think they would rather do it with out fore warning in the main. Regards the courts where a prior recording might have taken place I totaly diss-aggree but that is your descision.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/03/07 03:55 PM)

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#252337 - 07/03/07 04:40 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

The video you posted Im afraid I couldnt take it seriouse




Interesting that you couldn't take it too seriously, because it was real.

Cord, I have to say I have enjoyed your posts and your description of the dance is dead on correct.

That is what fighting really is like, I sit on the forum and read a lot of posts about "real" fighting and I wonder have these guys ever actually been in a fight?

I was a bouncer myself and grew up in a city where fights were common and almost every one went down with all the pre-fight dancing Cord descibed.

Rarely have I seen 2 guys sqaure off and fight, I have never been in a fight that lasted more then a couple of seconds, and I have (almost)never seen a good fighter on the ground.

So the idea of when to strike and all the stuff that happens prior to a fight, is every bit if not more important than the actual fight itself, we trained for it but I get the feeling many or most do not.

Just some thoughts.

What I have seen bad fighters do, thats another story.


Edited by Kimo2007 (07/03/07 04:46 PM)
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#252338 - 07/03/07 04:54 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
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JJ, i agree that a lot of the shouting and posturing is just that- if you re examine my last post you will see I say just that (an assertion of dominance...comes to nothing more than insults if placated....etc). But it often does lead to physical confrontation as well. If the intensity of the aggression can not be dissipated through diplomacy or removal of your presence from the aggressor, then the threat is real, and the intent is serious. Thats a pretty simple observation to make, and a quick one as well.

(You do realise this makes a brief string of posts between us without insult on either part?)

Jude33, i am not sure why exactly you cant take the footage seriously, its not glamorous, but then life seldom is.
The image of the silent dangerous guy is another sweeping stereotype often courted by the movies. Eastwood, Kurt Russell, Bruce Willis- they all romanticise this idea.
the truth is that some real 'hard men' are as mouthy as a fog horn, and verbal aggression can elevate aggression and even be a side effect of adrenaline dump. What is the difference between a battle cry, a 'kiai', and 'COME ON THEN YOU FAT F*CKER!'? They all bolster confidence, focus breathing and are designed to intimidate.
Football hooligans spend their life chanting and yelling obscenities to and fro, but they also spend the aftermath of that action belting the cr4p out of each other as well. Loud, quiet, trained, untrained- everyone who wishes to do you harm is as great a threat- you can not afford to take someone less seriously because they dont fit your mental image of a 'tough guy'.
like you said, its your choice, and i hope that no one who either agrees or disagrees with me has to try this stuff out.
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#252339 - 07/03/07 05:03 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
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Quote:

(You do realise this makes a brief string of posts between us without insult on either part?)




I suspect it's momentary, probably due to the fact that we largely agree with the subject matter in this thread (as opposed to live blade training, etc)

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#252340 - 07/03/07 05:17 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

The video you posted Im afraid I couldnt take it seriouse




Interesting that you couldn't take it too seriously, because it was real.




Evening Sir.
Can I ask is that an assumption?
a question?
an idea?
or did
a double (Jude2) of myself communicate that wrongfull thought to you from a parrellel universe where such encounters dont take place ? Maybe in that place pimps as in the video are no longer required?
Nor martial arts practioners? Therefore its the wrong thought? or person?

Either way I am not to sure how you reached that conclusion but its somewhat wrong.
But it proves a point I was thinking about. Any how far be it for me to get entangled in a verbal none productive sparring match. If you have any fighters on video then please feel free to post them.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (07/03/07 05:44 PM)

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#252341 - 07/03/07 06:01 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
What im trying to say is I dont think the video was for real. It looks false. Made for you tube. Actors.
Wind up right?

Jude

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#252342 - 07/03/07 06:03 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

What im trying to say is I dont think the video was for real. It looks false. Made for you tube. Actors.
Wind up right?

Jude




Man, don't you dare dis the ura shuto!!!

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#252343 - 07/03/07 06:38 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

What im trying to say is I dont think the video was for real. It looks false. Made for you tube. Actors.
Wind up right?

Jude




This footage gained a great deal of attention when it first came to light. The chap who dropped the aggressive guy happened to be a police restraint/SD trainer shooting instructional footage in the near vicinity. His attacker was/is a pimp who was manhandling one of his 'employees'. Trainer intervened, pimp got angry, pimp escalated, pimp got KTFO.

If you watch the strike, and most importantly the 'pimps' reactions after being dropped, it is easy to see that it was neither faked or staged.

Why would I post footage of unlicensed fighters or running brawls? the very point of the link i posted is to demonstrate how pre-emption can negate that very thing. It was the Trainers decisive action that kept him completely unharmed. That is the very best outcome an attack victim can hope for.

Pre-emption- dont agree? dont do it. simple as that.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252344 - 07/04/07 08:45 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

If you watch the strike, and most importantly the 'pimps' reactions after being dropped, it is easy to see that it was neither faked or staged.

Why would I post footage of unlicensed fighters or running brawls?




I can't think of a good reason.

Why, do you have any?

Quote:

... the very point of the link i posted is to demonstrate how pre-emption can negate that very thing. It was the Trainers decisive action that kept him completely unharmed. That is the very best outcome an attack victim can hope for.

Pre-emption- dont agree? dont do it. simple as that.






I still think that he should have shot in for the double leg & mounted.
After all, it's best to make your fights conform with oft-quoted and popular statistics, is it not?

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#252345 - 07/04/07 08:53 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


I still think that he should have shot in for the double leg & mounted.
After all, it's best to make your fights conform with oft-quoted and popular statistics, is it not?





No. It's better to stand and trade with someone infinitely better at striking than you are. Stand there and take your punishment is what I always say.


-John

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