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#252323 - 07/02/07 11:04 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
For those that are interested, drgndrew has been kind enough to compile some of Geoff Thompson's "Dead or Alive" excerpts on this thread here -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15905133
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252324 - 07/02/07 11:06 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: MattJ]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Thank-YOU

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#252325 - 07/03/07 09:04 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Hi Cord.
I dont think I said all instigaters were right handed.




but in your take on reactive, not pro-active defence of your safety, you have factored in that your 'typical street fighter' loses balance when they throw their right hand. You cannot project or presume a specific physical act or weakness on the behalf of your attacker, or you run an incredibly high chance of reacting to what you expect, not what is actually happening.

Quote:

Average street fighter ? My thoughts on the average street fighter means the type who throws punches off balance,hits with the wrong part of their hands, normaly have busted knuckles, headbutts using a bad technique




Thats a comforing idea. The concept that all aggressive, mean hearted persons who wish to harm for no good reason are somehow bumbling oafs that can be taken lightly and dealt with with nonchelance in any circumstance. In my experience, this is far from always the case. Sure, there are a lot of people who have a bit too much to drink and get upset waiting for taxi's/kebabs on a sturday night, but even they pose a real and authentic threat to you if they choose you as the object of their anger. Then there are others for whom the act of violence- the choosing of a 'target' the goading, escalation, and eventual physical altercation is a genuine pastime of itself. They enjoy it and do it a lot. They are often very good at it as well.

At the end of the day, if you are in real danger, it is not a stereotype that is in front of you, it is an individual, and too much presumption or underestimation will get you badly hurt.

Quote:

Your description of scenarios where a person can strike first? Perhaps it might be that way in some cases but I personaly dont trust British law. If I were in a situation where it was recorded I would like things fairly clear should it go to court. More than likely that would be difficult but that is the way I would like it.




and i would like to win the lottery, but the chances are slim. Again, if you are ever in the unfortunate position of having real violence looming, the last thing you are thinking about is how it looks to others- you dont give a sh1t about anything other than the threat itself, and given the choice between having my head kicked in, or a day in court, I will take my day in court thanks.


Quote:

Dear Sirs.
Is there any chance that some of you guys might(no one specific) leave the verbal sparring that is off topic to a different thread specific to verbal sparring if one exists?
I think this thread is interesting and it would be a shame if it was shut down.




It is an interesting topic. It is also an important topic, and advice/opinion of SD can carry real world consequences if acted upon by a reader. That is why it is vital that any opinion offered with any conviction be constant and clear. In that context, any concerns or questions I have asked of an individual have been 'on topic'.

this clip has been done to death, but it is an excellent example of the point i am making in regards to what constitutes a reasonable pre-emptive action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fhcT3tz9uQ

Did the 'pimp' 'swing' or 'strike' (choose your definition)? No

Did he 'chamber'? No

Did he ever even make a grab? No.

Does anyone here feel that the other guy was unjustified in his actions?
Is it in any way unclear as to who the aggressor was in this incident?

An attack is not just about kicks and punches people, its a combination of the physical and psychological that must be processed and assessed in micro-seconds.

Develop good pressure skills. learn to have confidence in your judgement and instinct. appraise individual situations, not pre-conceived hypothesis. Do all this, and the truth in your actions will be plain for all to see.


Edited by Cord (07/03/07 09:25 AM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252326 - 07/03/07 11:30 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Develop good pressure skills. learn to have confidence in your judgement and instinct. appraise individual situations, not pre-conceived hypothesis. Do all this, and the truth in your actions will be plain for all to see.




Do you have a lesson plan for the class, or any resources?

Oh, & I love that vid. JUDO CHOP !

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#252327 - 07/03/07 11:37 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Jim,

I'd take Cord more seriously if I were you. Quite simple, he used to work as a door-man (bouncer for you Americans), which means he has a lot of hands-on experience when it comes to altercation, and escalation of hostile situations.

Assuming that the normal 'street fighter' lacks skill, is an underestimation that has gotten people killed before. Sure, a few years ago, I might not have been able to fend for myself 1 on 1, but I could stab you if you messed with me to the point I couldn't tolerate you anymore.

Quote:

you have factored in that your 'typical street fighter' loses balance when they throw their right hand


Agreed with Cord there. You did say that. I'm right handed, but I hit with my left 90% of the time. I'm south-paw by the way.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#252328 - 07/03/07 11:39 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Edit: quoting Cord, not J_J.

Quote:

Does anyone here feel that the other guy was unjustified in his actions?




No, and Yes. He wouldn't have had to "preempt" had he not become (willingly) involved in the first place.

Quote:

Is it in any way unclear as to who the aggressor was in this incident?




Legally, a decent lawyer could make it pretty unclear real fast. We didn't see what actions "our hero" took before the clip starts in his effort to "stop the fight."


Is defense of others always a reason to get involved? That's a whole different thread, but I'm not sure this clip was the best illustration of appropriate preemptive measures since the guy (rightly or wrongly) got involved and brought it on himself.

Just to be clear, I'm not knocking the guy for coming to the aide of a ehem,,,, damsel in distress, I've done so myself in the past, but. . .


Edited by jpoor (07/03/07 11:40 AM)
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#252329 - 07/03/07 11:54 AM Re: When to strike? [Re: Jim_Judy]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

Develop good pressure skills. learn to have confidence in your judgement and instinct. appraise individual situations, not pre-conceived hypothesis. Do all this, and the truth in your actions will be plain for all to see.




Do you have a lesson plan for the class, or any resources?

Oh, & I love that vid. JUDO CHOP !




Would you have needed special training to understand that the pimp in that clip really meant to do you harm?

As for coping with pressure, adrenaline dump etc, there is no true training of equal intensity, all training is registered as just that, and the intent is never true, so there is no real threat to your life. However, ensuring that your training involves hard contact against fully resisting training partners is essential. It fills in some of the major pieces of the puzzle- you get used to hitting hard, and being hit hard, and dealing with the unpredictable nature of people. A bit of hard free sparring quickly shows the 'you grab there, and then I do this' drill structure to have its limits. Great for learning the technique, but little value in application of the technique thereafter. If you can punch/tackle/throw/clinch/whatever someone against their will in training, and take your lumps when you have to without panicking and squeezing your eyes shut in the hope that it will stop, then you stand a better chance of being able to deal with a SD situation.

confidence in your judgement/assessment of situations is a personal journey, usualy fueled by experience, but common sense is as good a rule of thumb as any, and you really dont need to be a psychology major to know when someone just wants to hit you no matter what you say or do, and if you cannot run, and no one is around to step in, then why on earth let them do it?
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252330 - 07/03/07 12:04 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: jpoor]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Does anyone here feel that the other guy was unjustified in his actions?




Quote:

No, and Yes. He wouldn't have had to "preempt" had he not become (willingly) involved in the first place.




but his intervention was not threatening to the man as an individual, it was a request to stop a specific action (manhandling the girl). When this request was complied with, the man (a cop on a LEO SD course apparently, btw), then turned and attempted to leave. that was the end of an incident in itself.Intervention followed by de-escalation.

The clip then shows a second incident altogether, that being the 'pimp' persuing the man aggressively.

To ask the question in a different way: though the only physical force used was by the cop, is it in any doubt that the pimp was the attacker? To me it is clear, and to a jury it would be as well. i doubt, in fact, that it would even get as far as court.


Edited by Cord (07/03/07 12:05 PM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#252331 - 07/03/07 12:14 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
"The man," from what I gather is actually the instructor. I wouldn't be so sure this wouldn't end up in court. It's a crazy system we have sometimes, but that's a whole new thread.

If we cut away the issue of whether or not the guy should have gotten involved at all, then yes, it was completely justified and a "clean strike" if you ask me.

We didn't, however, see his initial intervention (unless there is a version of the clip out there that cuts in earlier) so we can't say that it does/does not present a threat to the pimp. We can't really separate the two incidents.

Still, the guy did the right thing, and the bad guy got what he deserved.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#252332 - 07/03/07 01:14 PM Re: When to strike? [Re: Cord]
Jim_Judy Offline
wants to be loved

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 116
Quote:

Quote:

Do you have a lesson plan for the class, or any resources?

Oh, & I love that vid. JUDO CHOP !




Would you have needed special training to understand that the pimp in that clip really meant to do you harm?

As for coping with pressure, adrenaline dump etc, there is no true training of equal intensity, all training is registered as just that, and the intent is never true, so there is no real threat to your life. However, ensuring that your training involves hard contact against fully resisting training partners is essential. It fills in some of the major pieces of the puzzle- you get used to hitting hard, and being hit hard, and dealing with the unpredictable nature of people. A bit of hard free sparring quickly shows the 'you grab there, and then I do this' drill structure to have its limits. Great for learning the technique, but little value in application of the technique thereafter. If you can punch/tackle/throw/clinch/whatever someone against their will in training, and take your lumps when you have to without panicking and squeezing your eyes shut in the hope that it will stop, then you stand a better chance of being able to deal with a SD situation.

confidence in your judgement/assessment of situations is a personal journey, usualy fueled by experience, but common sense is as good a rule of thumb as any, and you really dont need to be a psychology major to know when someone just wants to hit you no matter what you say or do, and if you cannot run, and no one is around to step in, then why on earth let them do it?




So, Hard Sparring, Being a Bouncer/Doorman and/or Common Sense? That's what you recommend to be able to use Preemptive Striking appropriately?

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