FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 53 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
THEFOREVERMAN 3
royal 2
Dobbersky 2
MattJ 2
Marcus Charles 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#251759 - 06/22/06 03:57 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
Quote:

Quote:


If you read those volumes compiled by John Little, there is a memo handwritten by Bruce Lee explaining to one of his students that mixing martial arts together is not the same is the simplifying and re-simplifying process of jeet kune do. It even has an algebraic equation on the page describing it.





I agree that mixing arts together isn't necessarily JKD. Thats akin to cross-training. Of course that isn't MMA either, imo. This is awfully close to being an argument about semantics. There IS however the approach of cross-training and, the training of MMA and in my opinion, JKD.

However, we're really talking more about HOW those arts are practiced than the arts themselves. I don't BELIEVE in "style" or art per se. Any mention of fighting arts being different from each other is really nothing but an illusion. It all comes down to how you train.

So long as you aren't cross-training, how is JKD any different from anything else?

Quote:


For example, these days I personally practice a contorted system of defensive tactics used by police, security, and military personnel that uses tools such as compliance holds, basic grappling holds, handcuffing, and weapons, but no striking. This is supplemented by footwork similar to what I practiced in jeet kune do, trapping hands from Wing Chun, grappling methods from jujitsu courses I've taken, but still retains the development of scientific attributes from JKD. I suppose this would constitute a mixed martial arts system, but it is no longer jeet kune do.





Why is it any different than jeet kune do?


-John




These two questions are answered by what JKD is by definition. If you follow the Wikipedia definition, the part that says JKD is more of a "process" than a "product", then you're not talking about much difference here. If you believe, like I firmly do after meeting some of his original students, that JKD is a product of a man's process and is adaptable to most fighting situations that don't involve weapons but is its own system, then differences in methodology become more apparent.

When it all comes down to it, we all only have two hands and two feet. The differences between the fighting arts, however, are with methods of executing certain movements and with the purpose for which the art is used. The difference between what you would use grappling for and for what you would use striking to vital organs is one example of that.

Then there is the aspect of the art form. Many martial arts were developed as a stylized system of art, not just a "fighting method" or "combat method".

What I do now has absolutely nothing to do with JKD. Methods such as stop-hitting are forbidden and economy of movement really goes out the window a lot of the time in order to make a use of force application or an arrest more legally defensible. In fact, many times movements are purposefully disjointed in order to implement more dialogue and verbal commands while bringing a suspect under control. Indeed, punching and kicking are forbidden under most circumstances. Training with those methods only serves as a means to be able to counter such attacks.

The strong side of the body is placed in the back in order to retain the pistol in its holster while conducting interviews or while physically controlling a suspect with bare hands or handcuffs. The "longest weapon to closest target" principle goes out the window. The five ways of attack mostly do not apply. Attack by drawing? That's a good way to get my gun taken from me and shot with it.

The only root method of JKD that remains relevant to DT is the mobile footwork. Considering the stance is not the same, that is also a bit different in execution, although the spirit of delivery is similar.

Certainly, training methods used in JKD and other martial arts can be used for development, but when it all comes down to it the combat applications are merely supplementary. The objective is to neutralize a person's aggression, not to overcome it or overpower it.

Look at the objective of defensive tactics as well as the methodology and you'll agree after a while it has nothing to do with JKD.
_________________________
"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

Top
#251760 - 08/05/06 08:57 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
SmithNWessonDo wrote
Quote:

If you follow the Wikipedia definition, the part that says JKD is more of a "process" than a "product", then you're not talking about much difference here. If you believe, like I firmly do after meeting some of his original students, that JKD is a product of a man's process and is adaptable to most fighting situations that don't involve weapons but is its own system, then differences in methodology become more apparent.




That is where I differ. I too have met some of his original students, particularly from the later years (the LA scene). Larry Hartsell is the primary voice that I’m listening to. His opinion jibes with my own. And that’s what it often comes down to doesn’t it? (Opinions).


Quote:


When it all comes down to it, we all only have two hands and two feet. The differences between the fighting arts, however, are with methods of executing certain movements and with the purpose for which the art is used. The difference between what you would use grappling for and for what you would use striking to vital organs is one example of that.




Movements are movements. They are amazingly similar. We can only move in so many ways. I think you’re over analyzing things just a bit here.


Quote:


What I do now has absolutely nothing to do with JKD. Methods such as stop-hitting are forbidden and economy of movement really goes out the window a lot of the time in order to make a use of force application or an arrest more legally defensible.





JKD isn’t defined by the stop-hit. Economy of motion simply means using the least amount of energy and movements necessary to achieve an end result. I’d be willing to bet that you are using economy of motion more often that you realize. You probably use interception quite a bit more than you realize as well. The word is not the thing.


Quote:


The strong side of the body is placed in the back in order to retain the pistol in its holster while conducting interviews or while physically controlling a suspect with bare hands or handcuffs.





You don’t have to go strong side forward. Just because LEE did it doesn’t mean that you or I have to. That was *LEE’s* JKD, not mine. You’re confusing JKD with a product and not the process that it is.


Quote:


The "longest weapon to closest target" principle goes out the window. The five ways of attack mostly do not apply. Attack by drawing? That's a good way to get my gun taken from me and shot with it.





So you absorb what is useful and reject what is useless. You DO understand the JKD philosophy, correct? Judging by your posts, you don’t have a true grasp of the matter.


Quote:


The only root method of JKD that remains relevant to DT is the mobile footwork. Considering the stance is not the same, that is also a bit different in execution, although the spirit of delivery is similar.

Certainly, training methods used in JKD and other martial arts can be used for development, but when it all comes down to it the combat applications are merely supplementary. The objective is to neutralize a person's aggression, not to overcome it or overpower it.





That has absolutely nothing to do with the point of what is JKD.


Quote:


Look at the objective of defensive tactics as well as the methodology and you'll agree after a while it has nothing to do with JKD.





That would depend on who you ask. JKD utilizes all ways and is bound by none. Want to argue that point and you argue with the founder of the art himself.


-John

Top
#251761 - 08/06/06 08:46 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
That would depend on who you ask. JKD utilizes all ways and is bound by none. Want to argue that point and you argue with the founder of the art himself


Hi John
Yes, I think I can recall seeing an interview with Bruce Lee where he stated this point.

But do you think that other people have miss understood what he was saying? Then published what they think?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/06/06 08:49 PM)

Top
#251762 - 08/06/06 09:22 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


But do you think that other people have miss understood what he was saying? Then published what they think?





People misunderstand things all the time. Which would explain why you have an "original JKD" movement.



-John

Top
#251763 - 08/07/06 07:18 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
I have to say here that the more i improve, the more my movement (or standup at least) looks like Bruce's, and the more his concepts of interception and directness etc. come into play.

I sometimes feel, however, that some techniques we learn in class, are tailored for a fight against the untrained individual (since it is also known as scientific street fighting, you are more likely to meet an untrained individual in the street) and i can't help but think things like "that probably wouldn't work against me, but i can see it's practicality". The problem is though, that when we spar, we generally do so with a person of around the same skill level, and many of the techniques that may work well against the lay person never get practised in a fighting situation.
For example, i can distinctly remember being told to step in with a slower, looser jab than normal to test the opponent and to make him think that this is the way i fight before stunning him with a fast, powerful, tight lead. Against the lay person, i can see how this would work, but in a spar, if i was to step in with a slow loose jab, i'd probably get countered if the opponent was of similar skill.
This also goes for other techniques such as trapping. I have rarely seen trapping executed in a UFC or other professional fight, and i use it very seldom in my own sparring, but when playing around with my mates (non-MAists), it seems to work very well and i can sometimes tie them up in knots.

While i am aware that every fight is different, and that the MAist must adapt to whatever type of opponent he faces, i believe that the principles Bruce taught all have their place, and to leave some of them out (as someone suggested earlier) may be counterproductive.

Agian, i suppose it's all a matter of opinion
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

Top
#251764 - 08/07/06 09:32 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: jkdwarrior]
simplicity Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Michigan
simplicity just isn't so simple!...I teach my students, that most simple straight blast can deal with 90% of the general public, but we train for the 10% elite.....Great thread guys
_________________________
Peace-Out! John McNabney www.purpledragonstudio.com

Top
#251765 - 08/10/06 07:06 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: simplicity]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

simplicity just isn't so simple!...I teach my students, that most simple straight blast can deal with 90% of the general public, but we train for the 10% elite.....Great thread guys


jkdwarrior wrote
Quote:


I have to say here that the more i improve, the more my movement (or standup at least) looks like Bruce's, and the more his concepts of interception and directness etc. come into play.





That’s good, but keep in mind that Bruce would rather you to look like “you” than “him”. That’s the whole point of JKD, liberation from form, patterns and molds. If you “looked just like Bruce Lee”, you’d simply be in another mold. Food for thought.


Quote:


I sometimes feel, however, that some techniques we learn in class, are tailored for a fight against the untrained individual (since it is also known as scientific street fighting, you are more likely to meet an untrained individual in the street) and i can't help but think things like "that probably wouldn't work against me, but i can see it's practicality". The problem is though, that when we spar, we generally do so with a person of around the same skill level, and many of the techniques that may work well against the lay person never get practised in a fighting situation.

For example, i can distinctly remember being told to step in with a slower, looser jab than normal to test the opponent and to make him think that this is the way i fight before stunning him with a fast, powerful, tight lead. Against the lay person, i can see how this would work, but in a spar, if i was to step in with a slow loose jab, i'd probably get countered if the opponent was of similar skill.

This also goes for other techniques such as trapping. I have rarely seen trapping executed in a UFC or other professional fight, and i use it very seldom in my own sparring, but when playing around with my mates (non-MAists), it seems to work very well and i can sometimes tie them up in knots.





It all depends on HOW you are training, not “what” you are training. Of course the “how” will often dictate and determine then “what”. Train realistically and hard enough and you’ll dispense with a LOT of things that are simply not very functional.

Classical compound trapping that is often practiced in the wing chun or Jun Fan form, is what I consider “low percentage“. Some say, “Trapping works well, all you have to do is spend enough time with it”. What? 15 years? I’ve spent nearly 25 years in JKD. 18 of those years I spent doing a lot of trapping. I have dropped the classical methods for a reason. It CAN work, but for it’s application in fighting it simply doesn’t -- unless you have an opponent who is timid and spends a lot of time being defensive. The problem there is, attackers ATTACK, right? Otherwise they wouldn’t be called “attackers”.

So “trapping” in the classical sense, is a tool to use against a defensive fighter or a fighter beneath your level of experience and / or skill. I prefer to train for the people who do have skill and experience.


Quote:


While i am aware that every fight is different, and that the MAist must adapt to whatever type of opponent he faces, i believe that the principles Bruce taught all have their place, and to leave some of them out (as someone suggested earlier) may be counterproductive.

Agian, i suppose it's all a matter of opinion





Every principle and concept of JKD is valid and has it’s place. In fact, they are inarguable. Many of the “techniques” found in the original form leave a little to be desired. Absorb what is useful and discard the rest, right?



simplicity wrote
Quote:

simplicity just isn't so simple!...I teach my students, that most simple straight blast can deal with 90% of the general public, but we train for the 10% elite.....Great thread guys





I agree with that completely. But that exemplifies the differences between a “strategy” (the straight blast for self-defense) and TRAINING.

That is to say, to have a simple strategy where the training is more complex.

I teach a very simple strategy for self-defense. It’s easy to implement. Training however is two hours long, covers the three core ranges (standing, clinch, ground) and can be exhausting. People sweat and move. Advil is often needed afterward. They box, wrestle in the clinch, wrestle on the ground and at times, hit each other with sticks.

So again, “strategy” is one thing. The simpler the better. Training however is more arduous, though it isn’t necessarily more complex at the same time. Perhaps it is the difference between simple and easy. Training is simple, though it isn’t easy.



-John

Top
#251766 - 08/10/06 08:39 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Quote:

[I teach a very simple strategy for self-defense. It’s easy to implement. Training however is two hours long, covers the three core ranges (standing, clinch, ground) and can be exhausting. People sweat and move. Advil is
So again, “strategy” is one thing. The simpler the better. Training however is more arduous, though it isn’t necessarily more complex at the same time. Perhaps it is the difference between simple and easy. Training is simple, though it isn’t easy.

-John




The more complex the movement, the more difficult it is to execute, and the more concious effort you will have to put in. This means that while your brain is occupied with what you are doing, you could be getting hit.
I believe that the simpler the attack, the more you mind can be freed to work on strategy or defending against counters.

What i find in my class though, is that during standup, many of the students feel the need to throw spin kicks with alarming regularity, when a simple straight lead with a step in will suffice. When these people spar, it quickly ends up that they are getting countered, but they still don't listen (their loss really) because they want to look good.
I've also noticed that when i spar, the quickest shots are the ones that land while the big moves are the ones that finish. So it follows that in order to become good, we should aim to make our quickest shots powerful, which means jab, jab, jab. Not only can this technique completely finish an opponent after a lot of practice, but it opens up so many opportunities. In fact there is usually a remarkable difference in the overall fighting ability between someone who has mastered the jab, and someone who hasn't, just because of this one move.

Quote:

That’s good, but keep in mind that Bruce would rather you to look like “you” than “him”. That’s the whole point of JKD, liberation from form, patterns and molds. If you “looked just like Bruce Lee”, you’d simply be in another mold. Food for thought.




If it looks like Bruce's though, it is probably good technique. There are only so many ways the human body can move, and i KNOW that i'm learning it in my own way, even though it looks similar (not as good obvoiusly). It also makes me realise just how much training he put in, and just how much effort it takes to be the very best you can be. Had he lived, he would probably have shown us so much more.

Just as i'm writing this, I'm realising that the principles he left behind are sufficient for reaching our potential.Come to think of it, he probably would have gone down the same path that the entire martial arts world is currently exploring (except for the classical, unchanging types who refuse to take advantage of the overwhelming evidence of what works). Sorry to bring this up again, but i feel so strongly about it that i just can't let it go.

Anyway, yes, keep it simple. Master a small number of the fastest, simplest and most direct techniques, instead of sampling all of the many hundreds of thousands of possibilities.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (08/10/06 12:28 PM)
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

Top
#251767 - 08/10/06 12:24 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: jkdwarrior]
chukspinna Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 15
Iv arrived a bit late in this discussion guys but I would like to add that my approach to JKD is as simple as its concept.Like my signature says,I train something until its natural,as in I feels completely comfortable using it at work,concentrating on how im standing ie every position and being able to punch/kick,from them.This is my only physical focus,what works for me to defend myself and others.I never cloud my mind with any procedure or formats.The only thing that comes close is Bruces kicking drill from his Atlanta seminar(I beleive).Open to everything that might work on the street but closed to nothing that may improve me spiritually,this is MY approach to JKD,not unique but often ignored.Like a stament earlier in the thread,if you carry on a discussion about the best methods and procedures for long enough then the said topic suddenly does become a style.To aquire knowledge then to self analyze/criticise so u need no 'Teacher' only inspiration.This is how I learn and this is what I teach. Anywhoo Il stop talkin now cos iv prob repeated everything thats been said already. Cheers guys!
_________________________
Train til its natural baby!!

Top
#251768 - 08/10/06 12:31 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: chukspinna]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by chukspinna -

Quote:

The only thing that comes close is Bruces kicking drill from his Atlanta seminar(I beleive).




That is interesting. I was not aware that BL did seminars when he was alive. Were you there for that? What drills are you talking about?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >


Moderator:  Cord, JKogas, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga