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#251729 - 05/07/06 07:38 PM What IS Jeet Kune Do
JKogas Offline
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When its all said and done, JKD is a "process" and not a "product". Its the process of discovery and is NOT a "style" in other words. This process however is not chaotic and does have an general outline.

Before continuing on with this thread, have a look at the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do

That's a good place to start this discussion. We can go on from that point. Ultimately, JKD is a personal experience. However, there ARE certain tenets within that philosophy. The website linked to above does a fairly decent job of elaborating on those.

Enjoy!



-John

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#251730 - 05/07/06 09:26 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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I am normally somewhat leery of Wikipedia, but the JKD entry was pretty insightful, IMHO. Some good points:

Quote:

Jeet Kune Do advocates that any practitioner be allowed to interpret techniques for themselves, and change them for their own purposes.




This seems very common sense to me, but I have been surprised that many instructors in some "progressive" arts have a very "traditional" view of proper ways to do techniques.

Quote:

The (traditional) schools Lee criticized tend to see their initial conservatism as a safety feature; a legacy of practical experience passed down from generation to generation, said to ensure that their students are thoroughly prepared for advanced martial arts training, skipping nothing and developing intangibles such as good character, patience and discipline. The hierarchy of the traditional schools is said by this reasoning to provide a level playing field for all students by instilling respect and care for one's seniors, peers and juniors, so that everyone, not just the physically gifted, has an opportunity to benefit from the training provided in a martial art school.




I think the directness of JKD training (and by extension modern MMA) does NOT provide a level playing field, in the sense of the traditional schools as mentioned in the article. But should it? I realize that as I write this, I'm not sure what my answer is.

I think it's good for instructors to know that there are other guys out there that can have significant skill without much training in a style. It is also good for beginners to not have a false sense of confidence about their skill level.

Wow. Sorry for rambling. This has actually given me a bit to think about, when I thought my position on JKD was fairly settled.
_________________________
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#251731 - 05/07/06 10:08 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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I posted to Wikipedia link simply to provide a starting point. Some of it was right on and other bits of it I am undecided on. I wanted to provide my OWN opinion of what JKD "is" as this thread continued.

It could be said that simplicity is at the heart of what JKD is about. JKD thus could "simply" be defined as the quest for "truth in combat". But does it end there? SHOULD it end there? I definitely believe it is the starting point when searching for the meaning of JKD.

Using simplicity (and decrease) we can say that the most important principles of JKD are:

  • Simplicity (and daily decrease)
  • Aliveness (along with progressive resistance and variable intensity)
  • Adaptability (developing ability over the three ranges of stand-up, clinch and ground fighting)


I believe that those three principles contain EVERY core elemental concept necessary for the personal discovery of JKD (which includes developing and maximizing fighting skill and, personal transformation).

People can argue over semantics and the like. Ultimately however, JKD is about being able to fight and is NOT about politics.

By the way, I titled this thread, What IS JKD, NOT to provide "the answer". I have MY answer, but I'm also curious to hear the opinions of everyone else. Hopefully this will be an enlightening thread.



-John

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#251732 - 05/08/06 01:06 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: MattJ]
theoldone Offline
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Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
Quote:



Quote:

The (traditional) schools Lee criticized tend to see their initial conservatism as a safety feature; a legacy of practical experience passed down from generation to generation, said to ensure that their students are thoroughly prepared for advanced martial arts training, skipping nothing and developing intangibles such as good character, patience and discipline. The hierarchy of the traditional schools is said by this reasoning to provide a level playing field for all students by instilling respect and care for one's seniors, peers and juniors, so that everyone, not just the physically gifted, has an opportunity to benefit from the training provided in a martial art school.




I think the directness of JKD training (and by extension modern MMA) does NOT provide a level playing field, in the sense of the traditional schools as mentioned in the article. But should it? I realize that as I write this, I'm not sure what my answer is.




If JKD is not a set system or a specific style, then it should not provide a level playing field because each individual is unique.

If we liken martial arts to a journey, then conceptual JKD is a compass, although not the North Star itself. We're back to that Zen "finger pointing to the moon" thingie. JKD is the finger, while the individual's martial journey, experience and eventual realization of his/her personal "truth in combat" constitute the moon.

"May way is not your way", or something like that.

But observing the way many martial artists (including so-called "masters") behave, they seem to be saying, "My way is not your way. It's the only way. Your way s*cks"

The conceptual view of JKD would seem to encourage each practitioner to approach his/her own martial journey in a way that says, metaphorically speaking, "I must live my own life, my own truth. I must travel my own path, guided by the principles I have found to be speaking the truth to me. I cannot do otherwise. I shall remember my forebears and all those who had come before, and I shall always be grateful to them, but I must find and express my own 'voice', in my own way, and travel my own path".

Am I even close?


Edited by theoldone (05/08/06 01:08 PM)
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#251733 - 05/08/06 02:07 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Yes. JKD is very much about personal expression.

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#251734 - 05/08/06 06:16 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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JKD is a “roadmap” of a territory. We need to follow it to some degree. Your experience within that territory is yours alone however.

The roadmap of JKD states that we must follow a certain path and to obtain knowledge of the territory (remembering that the map is not the territory).

Looking at the most important concepts (the "roadmap"):

*Simplicity: We have to make things simpler and not more complex. This means cutting through all unnecessary extrapolation and ornamentation. What does this means for us? Several things really. No more chi-sao. No more hubud. No more lop-sao/bong sao switch. No more high-outside reference point trapping. In fact, the only sensitivity drilling that we do anymore is clinch pummeling. Keeping things as simple as we can and stripping away what isn’t needed is a STAPLE of the JKD concept (daily decrease). Less is more, though you do have to keep what is necessary.

*Adaptability: The three core games (stand-up, clinch and ground). The four ranges are still there, but due to “simplifying” everything, we don’t give them “tool specific” names any longer. Kicking and punching ranges are still there, only now we refer to that as “stand-up”. The so-called trapping range is there, only now it’s referred to as the clinch. The ground we refer to as, “GROUND” (oddly enough). It’s not enough just to be a kicker, puncher, in-fighter or grappler. JKD implores that we strive to be ALL of those things (and notice how I did not say “karate guy”, kung-gu guy, Greco-Roman guy or jiu-jitsu guy. JKD is beyond style and sees only “tools”. That is a pretty important distinction, imo).

Having the quality of adaptability means that we can “float in totality”. We’re not limited. We can flow between ranges and “respond like an echo” to our opponent. We can meet whatever attack he may present because there is no unexplored territory for us (not being unfamiliar to any specific ‘line of attack’). We know what punches look like. We know what kicks look like. And underhooks, plumm positions, single legs, double legs, armbars, chokes, leg locks, etc., etc.

*Aliveness: Bruce Lee thought it was critical that we “get into the water” in order to experience swimming. This means, you gotta put the equipment on and fight. That is truly the only way you’re going to learn fighting. This doesn’t mean that you have to kill your partners. There are degrees of this for the sake of training purposes. We refer to this as progressive resistance and variable intensity. Progressive resistance means that you simply work up to higher levels of resistance. If you had never lifted weights before, I wouldn't put 500 pounds on the barbell and tell you to bench-press it. You'd start out light. However, if you never add more resistance than what you started with, you’ll never get stronger. So we must always progressively add.

Aliveness is also about realistic training practices. We need real timing even if we’re not using full power. We also need realistic motion as well. You can’t be standing in one place, flat-footed while practicing. You also need to not pull your punches, even if you’re not using full power. You have to try and hit your man, in the face, etc.

Now what the individual obtains through this practice, bearing in mind the above concepts, can never be taken from him. It is WON through hard work. Blood, sweat and tears. THAT becomes the individual expression of JKD. It’s NOT just taking anything and adding it “willy-nilly”, just to make that clear.



-John

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#251735 - 05/08/06 06:37 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Very nice breakdown, John. I like the weightlifting analogy as well. That is a very good way to put it for people that are not used to that type of training.
_________________________
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#251736 - 05/09/06 03:05 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
theoldone Offline
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Posts: 172
Wonderful exposition, John. Fighting a guy who has all that down pat would be like fighting shadows AND Mr. Fantastic at the same time.

This is turning out to be very interesting.

--------------

C'mon, you JKD freaks...er, I meant practitioners...out there. Pipe up. There's no right and wrong here. All opinions, insights and viewpoints are welcome.

I/we want to hear from you.
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#251737 - 05/09/06 07:14 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
JKogas Offline
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*crickets chirping*



Such is the life of the JKD forum, particularly when the topic isn't Bruce Lee.



-John

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#251738 - 05/09/06 11:19 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
theoldone Offline
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Quote:

*crickets chirping*



Is that the customary Zen part of the JKD curriculum? Now, I would definitely classify that as the "sit" range...or maybe the ground range?

Quote:

particularly when the topic isn't Bruce Lee.




How come?
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#251739 - 05/09/06 12:44 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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The Bruce topic is probably so beaten to death on this forum that most would rather say nothing than talk about him. It's not hard to familiarize yourself with his theories, philosophies and movies - why beat it to death with a bunch of people who have done the same? JKD is bigger than just Lee now, as are any MA's that outlive their founders. With JKD however, there is still a lot of evolution taking place and many new influences coming in. It's just so much more interesting to stick to the workings of the system instead of going over it's founder.

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#251740 - 05/09/06 04:05 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Shouji Offline
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Jeet Kune Do will continually grow and grow, because it follow's Bruce Lee's philosophy of, "taking in what is useful". As time passes by, more and more fighting techniques will arise, and those who deem it useful will use it.

It is a style, while not being a style (if you understand that).

" * A martial artist who drills exclusively to a set pattern of combat is losing his freedom. He is actually becoming a slave to a choice pattern and feels that the pattern is the real thing. It leads to stagnation because the way of combat is never based on personal choice and fancies, but constantly changes from moment to moment, and the disappointed combatant will soon find out that his "choice routine" lacks pliability. There must be a "being" instead of a "doing" in training. One must be free. Instead of complexity of form, there should be simplicity of expression."

Take that quote seriously, because that is what it is all about.
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#251741 - 05/09/06 05:11 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Shouji]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Contrary to that though, is that Lee never really mastered any particular art and could well have missed some great revelations in his studies. I would imagine that if he studied with Yip Man in WC, he could have gleened enough of it to not need all of the boxing, grappling, fencing, etc. etc. that he incorporated into JKD. I guess there are students and masters and we all have to find which one we are. Although Bruce became a master of his own art, there is nothing wrong with a dedicated student studying the way of one art. It is only what is taught and what is learned that matters and most of us just aren't good enough to rebel against that structure.

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#251742 - 05/09/06 05:40 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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It's funny...

We see so many Wing Chun guys saying that "Lee never completed his studies in the art and, if he had, would have never seen reason to form JKD.

I have a different opinion of that. That opinion isn't particularly favorable of Wing Chun as a functional method of training.


-John

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#251743 - 05/09/06 07:04 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
Wosaw Offline
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I just wanted to say to everyone on this topic so far that I really respect everyone's knowledge and opinions about JKD. Also I was surprised with the link from wikipedia, they were pretty Thorough with their information on JKD. I don't know why, but I really enjoyed reading what everyone had to say. As for the whole Bruce topic I think its kinda important to know a little about him and how he came up with JKD, cause I feel it gives you a little better understanding of JKD. But, yea Bruce is gone, thank him for JKD, and move on.

Quote:

Contrary to that though, is that Lee never really mastered any particular art and could well have missed some great revelations in his studies. I would imagine that if he studied with Yip Man in WC, he could have gleened enough of it to not need all of the boxing, grappling, fencing, etc. etc. that he incorporated into JKD.




I've read something like this before a number of times. Um, if he didnt master it, he didnt master it. Maybe he missed out maybe he didnt. Either way he did what he did. As for you putting that you think he wouldn't need to incorporate boxing, grappling, ect., errr I respect your opinion but strongly disagree with that view. I could argue this point, but I really dont feel like doing this at this point and time. I'll leave it to someone else. I've posted enough for now.

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#251744 - 05/09/06 07:43 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Wosaw]
JKogas Offline
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Wosaw -

There's nothing wrong with talking about Bruce Lee. His name should be mentioned somewhat I suppose when you're talking about JKD. What I was basically saying was that there are a lot of people who don't know a whole lot about martial arts that get really enamored with Bruce Lee to the point that you feel they believe he was some kind of supernatural being or what-not.

Any other talk about Lee's reported abilities or inabilities is purely speculation at this point, wouldn't you agree? It's all "talk".

I'd rather talk about something that I can verify, and that is the validity of the concepts behind JKD (again, not that talking about Lee is unwelcome really, but you get the point I'm sure).


-John

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#251745 - 05/09/06 08:12 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
Wosaw Offline
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lol i never said there was anything wrong with talking about Bruce lee. My message was kind of towards people who just are obsessed about him or say something like "If Bruce...". Sorry if I offended, I know he has to be talked about somewhat. Anyways, back to talkting about JKD, I'd write something, but I think I'll re-read for something that hasnt been said then put it.

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#251746 - 05/09/06 08:15 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Wosaw]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

lol i never said there was anything wrong with talking about Bruce lee.





I know. I wasn't implying that. I was telling everyone that its OK to talk about Lee to some extent but not to become obsessed with it.


-John

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#251747 - 05/09/06 09:07 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Wosaw]
Shouji Offline
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Quote:

lol i never said there was anything wrong with talking about Bruce lee. My message was kind of towards people who just are obsessed about him or say something like "If Bruce...". Sorry if I offended, I know he has to be talked about somewhat. Anyways, back to talkting about JKD, I'd write something, but I think I'll re-read for something that hasnt been said then put it.




Due, Bruce Lee is god
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#251748 - 05/10/06 12:49 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
Wosaw Offline
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Quote:

Wosaw -

There's nothing wrong with talking about Bruce Lee...




Thats what confused me lol, thought it was directed towards me. Oh well. =P

Well about JKD, its the only art that I know of to emphasis on training dynamically. " Be instinctively familiar with all possibilities. – Bruce Lee "

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#251749 - 05/13/06 02:16 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
theoldone Offline
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Quote:


Now what the individual obtains through this practice, bearing in mind the above concepts, can never be taken from him. It is WON through hard work. Blood, sweat and tears. THAT becomes the individual expression of JKD.




Now, THAT is a beautiful thing.
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#251750 - 05/13/06 03:37 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
JKogas Offline
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It IS a beautiful process. When trained in the manner I have described, you begin to truly develop and "own" your technique. Naturally that will develop even more CONFIDENCE in your technique. Once you have that, you have technique you can actually apply and rely upon.



-John

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#251751 - 05/20/06 02:19 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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I agree with most things but I have something to add to the adaptiveness of JKD. Though JKD would definitely lead you to cross train so that you could fighton the ground and such, I would rather think that you can defend yourself against any kind of opponent that is presented to you. So even if you are primarily a striker, you could adapt to a grapplers fighting technique and still defeat him. Of course that totally depends on the person.

Like a Karate artist does not necessarily have to study other arts in order to follow JKD. As long as the artist does not limit himself and adapts in combat he is still JKD in my eyes, even if his techniques/stance/wutever are karate origin.

-Arthur

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#251752 - 06/13/06 11:01 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: IExcalibui2]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
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I have a viewpoint here that I think others may disagree with, but having heard the same from Bruce Lee's personal student here it is:

Jeet Kune Do is an individualized martial arts system developed by Mr. Bruce Lee in 1967 for development of and for use by himself. The system has its own definitive stance and techniques, referred to as "tools", used for each perceived type of empty handed fighting. Heavy emphasis is placed on mobility and physical development for functional use.

Each tool developed is designed to be a primary tool used as a weapon in many varied scenarios. There is not a wide array of techniques used in jeet kune do, but knowledge and familiarization with other martial arts systems is encouraged, especially to be able to counter such fighters from other systems.

Instead of working with "forms", perceived as tantamount to a form of classical art or dance, emphasis is placed on the scientific development of "attributes", which include things such as speed, power (by velocity), strength, ease of movement, rhythm, and cadence (mental perception of speed). Sparring is practiced a lot to develop proficiency. When a certain degree of mastery is attained with the sparring exercise, sparring may be practiced against willing participants from other systems in order to expand one's experience.

After immersion in the conditioning, sparring, and expansion phases, the practitioner eventually returns to the practice of the basic primary tools, footwork, and further development of attributes. What was once complex is simple again despite the various forms out there, except you can do it better than most anybody else.

Having said all that about the training process, jeet kune do is still its own system. The same training methods may be employed with pretty much any martial arts system, but to say you "employ" JKD with another system like karate or jujitsu is not entirely correct since the essence of what it is at that point in time is redefined from the tactical system of JKD to the developmental process of JKD. By the same token, mixed martial arts is not JKD.

If you read those volumes compiled by John Little, there is a memo handwritten by Bruce Lee explaining to one of his students that mixing martial arts together is not the same is the simplifying and re-simplifying process of jeet kune do. It even has an algebraic equation on the page describing it.

For example, these days I personally practice a contorted system of defensive tactics used by police, security, and military personnel that uses tools such as compliance holds, basic grappling holds, handcuffing, and weapons, but no striking. This is supplemented by footwork similar to what I practiced in jeet kune do, trapping hands from Wing Chun, grappling methods from jujitsu courses I've taken, but still retains the development of scientific attributes from JKD. I suppose this would constitute a mixed martial arts system, but it is no longer jeet kune do. It does embody the "jeet kune do experience" though if you want to think about it in those terms.

Jeet Kune Do was unique to Bruce Lee in its true sense. Still, there are many things Mr. Lee wrote about during his lifetime that other martial artists can develop and learn from, even if that person's style or system of tactics is totally irrelevant. This is something the whole community of martial arts has definitely benefitted from as a legacy.

In closing I would like to mention something I feel strongly about. Something Mr. Lee told all his students and is in his writings as well is the statement "Jeet Kune Do is just a name. Please don't fuss over it." He felt that by creating a thing that was so dynamic for the time he would be unifying people in martial arts circles, clarifying differences, and coming up with a means for people he knew at the time who were in closed communities in the United States to successfully integrate and become more prosperous.

Since his death in 1973, people have done just that though. I see endless bickering about what jeet kune do really is/was regardless of whether you were personally there to see it or not, which techniques are better, arguments about Mr. Lee's personal life, and countless other things that don't amount to a hill of beans in the real world. Some folks are even exchanging death threats over this kind of crap. This was the main reason I left a jeet kune do school ten years ago.

Some statements Bruce Lee said or wrote included "we all only have two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways we can use them." and "after all, we are all God's children under the sun" (or something like that). Statements like those are sage advice to live by.
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#251753 - 06/13/06 11:24 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
MattJ Offline
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Nice synopsis, SNWD.
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#251754 - 06/13/06 11:37 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: MattJ]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
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Quote:

Nice synopsis, SNWD.




Thank you sir.
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"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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#251755 - 06/19/06 07:08 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

Having said all that about the training process, jeet kune do is still its own system.





Thus a "style"?


Quote:


The same training methods may be employed with pretty much any martial arts system, but to say you "employ" JKD with another system like karate or jujitsu is not entirely correct since the essence of what it is at that point in time is redefined from the tactical system of JKD to the developmental process of JKD.





What exactly is the difference, in your opinion, between the tactical system of JKD and the developmental process of JKD?


Quote:


By the same token, mixed martial arts is not JKD.






Why not?


Quote:


If you read those volumes compiled by John Little, there is a memo handwritten by Bruce Lee explaining to one of his students that mixing martial arts together is not the same is the simplifying and re-simplifying process of jeet kune do. It even has an algebraic equation on the page describing it.





I agree that mixing arts together isn't necessarily JKD. Thats akin to cross-training. Of course that isn't MMA either, imo. This is awfully close to being an argument about semantics. There IS however the approach of cross-training and, the training of MMA and in my opinion, JKD.

However, we're really talking more about HOW those arts are practiced than the arts themselves. I don't BELIEVE in "style" or art per se. Any mention of fighting arts being different from each other is really nothing but an illusion. It all comes down to how you train.

So long as you aren't cross-training, how is JKD any different from anything else?


Quote:


For example, these days I personally practice a contorted system of defensive tactics used by police, security, and military personnel that uses tools such as compliance holds, basic grappling holds, handcuffing, and weapons, but no striking. This is supplemented by footwork similar to what I practiced in jeet kune do, trapping hands from Wing Chun, grappling methods from jujitsu courses I've taken, but still retains the development of scientific attributes from JKD. I suppose this would constitute a mixed martial arts system, but it is no longer jeet kune do.





Why is it any different than jeet kune do?


-John

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#251756 - 06/22/06 02:53 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
Quote:

Quote:

Having said all that about the training process, jeet kune do is still its own system.





Thus a "style"?




If you look at it in the sense of the definition I posted, it is a system developed by and for Bruce Lee. For him it was more of a developmental process used to refine his own body and artistic expression and in the process he developed something unique. That system had the name "jeet kune do". In that sense, yes it is a style. It is, however, not stylized in the sense of practicing classical forms or practicing with ancient weaponry that is mostly illegal in the modern world.
_________________________
"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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#251757 - 06/22/06 03:23 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
Quote:

Quote:


The same training methods may be employed with pretty much any martial arts system, but to say you "employ" JKD with another system like karate or jujitsu is not entirely correct since the essence of what it is at that point in time is redefined from the tactical system of JKD to the developmental process of JKD.





What exactly is the difference, in your opinion, between the tactical system of JKD and the developmental process of JKD?

Quote:






The "tactical" system of jeet kune do is the root system itself, which employs its own techniques and uses them in a tactical manner against various types of unarmed attacks. The key focus in the execution of attacks is simplification and effectiveness within one to three movements. Indeed, the word "tactical" in context was simply an adjective. Perhaps a better word would be "unique" - the "unique" system of jeet kune do. This is the system Bruce Lee himself practiced.

The tactics of jeet kune do stress simplicity in the number of techniques practiced, direct economy of movement, and development of specific attributes rather than the development of attributes within the confines of a kata (or whichever word is used to describe that). There are also other tactics used in practice that characterize the system such as the five ways of attack: single direct attack, attack by combination, attack by drawing, progressive indirect attack, and hand immobilization attack.

The developmental process is the process of training used in the classroom or personal training environment. This is the development of the individual. The developmental process is the development of the tools and the physical conditioning used in the training.

After the basic tools are learned, the practitioner does move to a stage of expanding horizons, where other things are learned such as complex trapping hands, high kicks, more grappling, and even movements from other systems. It is important, however, to remember these other styles may be used in the process of learning, but they do not become jeet kune do just because you choose to practice with them. Things like Muay Thai and Escrima are great in their own right, but it is not proper to place Bruce Lee's name on their practice or lineage. He had nothing to do with their development. Subsequently, they are not JKD. To place the brand name "JKD" on numerous martial arts actually cheapens their worth, like putting the McDonalds name on mass-produced hamburgers. Many burgers may be out there, but none quite come close to the original.

In summary there is a difference between "jeet kune do" and "using no way as a way and having no limitation as a limitation".
_________________________
"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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#251758 - 06/22/06 03:26 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
[quote
Quote:


By the same token, mixed martial arts is not JKD.






Why not?





That's pretty much summed up in the above posting.
_________________________
"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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#251759 - 06/22/06 03:57 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
Quote:

Quote:


If you read those volumes compiled by John Little, there is a memo handwritten by Bruce Lee explaining to one of his students that mixing martial arts together is not the same is the simplifying and re-simplifying process of jeet kune do. It even has an algebraic equation on the page describing it.





I agree that mixing arts together isn't necessarily JKD. Thats akin to cross-training. Of course that isn't MMA either, imo. This is awfully close to being an argument about semantics. There IS however the approach of cross-training and, the training of MMA and in my opinion, JKD.

However, we're really talking more about HOW those arts are practiced than the arts themselves. I don't BELIEVE in "style" or art per se. Any mention of fighting arts being different from each other is really nothing but an illusion. It all comes down to how you train.

So long as you aren't cross-training, how is JKD any different from anything else?

Quote:


For example, these days I personally practice a contorted system of defensive tactics used by police, security, and military personnel that uses tools such as compliance holds, basic grappling holds, handcuffing, and weapons, but no striking. This is supplemented by footwork similar to what I practiced in jeet kune do, trapping hands from Wing Chun, grappling methods from jujitsu courses I've taken, but still retains the development of scientific attributes from JKD. I suppose this would constitute a mixed martial arts system, but it is no longer jeet kune do.





Why is it any different than jeet kune do?


-John




These two questions are answered by what JKD is by definition. If you follow the Wikipedia definition, the part that says JKD is more of a "process" than a "product", then you're not talking about much difference here. If you believe, like I firmly do after meeting some of his original students, that JKD is a product of a man's process and is adaptable to most fighting situations that don't involve weapons but is its own system, then differences in methodology become more apparent.

When it all comes down to it, we all only have two hands and two feet. The differences between the fighting arts, however, are with methods of executing certain movements and with the purpose for which the art is used. The difference between what you would use grappling for and for what you would use striking to vital organs is one example of that.

Then there is the aspect of the art form. Many martial arts were developed as a stylized system of art, not just a "fighting method" or "combat method".

What I do now has absolutely nothing to do with JKD. Methods such as stop-hitting are forbidden and economy of movement really goes out the window a lot of the time in order to make a use of force application or an arrest more legally defensible. In fact, many times movements are purposefully disjointed in order to implement more dialogue and verbal commands while bringing a suspect under control. Indeed, punching and kicking are forbidden under most circumstances. Training with those methods only serves as a means to be able to counter such attacks.

The strong side of the body is placed in the back in order to retain the pistol in its holster while conducting interviews or while physically controlling a suspect with bare hands or handcuffs. The "longest weapon to closest target" principle goes out the window. The five ways of attack mostly do not apply. Attack by drawing? That's a good way to get my gun taken from me and shot with it.

The only root method of JKD that remains relevant to DT is the mobile footwork. Considering the stance is not the same, that is also a bit different in execution, although the spirit of delivery is similar.

Certainly, training methods used in JKD and other martial arts can be used for development, but when it all comes down to it the combat applications are merely supplementary. The objective is to neutralize a person's aggression, not to overcome it or overpower it.

Look at the objective of defensive tactics as well as the methodology and you'll agree after a while it has nothing to do with JKD.
_________________________
"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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#251760 - 08/05/06 08:57 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
JKogas Offline
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SmithNWessonDo wrote
Quote:

If you follow the Wikipedia definition, the part that says JKD is more of a "process" than a "product", then you're not talking about much difference here. If you believe, like I firmly do after meeting some of his original students, that JKD is a product of a man's process and is adaptable to most fighting situations that don't involve weapons but is its own system, then differences in methodology become more apparent.




That is where I differ. I too have met some of his original students, particularly from the later years (the LA scene). Larry Hartsell is the primary voice that I’m listening to. His opinion jibes with my own. And that’s what it often comes down to doesn’t it? (Opinions).


Quote:


When it all comes down to it, we all only have two hands and two feet. The differences between the fighting arts, however, are with methods of executing certain movements and with the purpose for which the art is used. The difference between what you would use grappling for and for what you would use striking to vital organs is one example of that.




Movements are movements. They are amazingly similar. We can only move in so many ways. I think you’re over analyzing things just a bit here.


Quote:


What I do now has absolutely nothing to do with JKD. Methods such as stop-hitting are forbidden and economy of movement really goes out the window a lot of the time in order to make a use of force application or an arrest more legally defensible.





JKD isn’t defined by the stop-hit. Economy of motion simply means using the least amount of energy and movements necessary to achieve an end result. I’d be willing to bet that you are using economy of motion more often that you realize. You probably use interception quite a bit more than you realize as well. The word is not the thing.


Quote:


The strong side of the body is placed in the back in order to retain the pistol in its holster while conducting interviews or while physically controlling a suspect with bare hands or handcuffs.





You don’t have to go strong side forward. Just because LEE did it doesn’t mean that you or I have to. That was *LEE’s* JKD, not mine. You’re confusing JKD with a product and not the process that it is.


Quote:


The "longest weapon to closest target" principle goes out the window. The five ways of attack mostly do not apply. Attack by drawing? That's a good way to get my gun taken from me and shot with it.





So you absorb what is useful and reject what is useless. You DO understand the JKD philosophy, correct? Judging by your posts, you don’t have a true grasp of the matter.


Quote:


The only root method of JKD that remains relevant to DT is the mobile footwork. Considering the stance is not the same, that is also a bit different in execution, although the spirit of delivery is similar.

Certainly, training methods used in JKD and other martial arts can be used for development, but when it all comes down to it the combat applications are merely supplementary. The objective is to neutralize a person's aggression, not to overcome it or overpower it.





That has absolutely nothing to do with the point of what is JKD.


Quote:


Look at the objective of defensive tactics as well as the methodology and you'll agree after a while it has nothing to do with JKD.





That would depend on who you ask. JKD utilizes all ways and is bound by none. Want to argue that point and you argue with the founder of the art himself.


-John

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#251761 - 08/06/06 08:46 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
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That would depend on who you ask. JKD utilizes all ways and is bound by none. Want to argue that point and you argue with the founder of the art himself


Hi John
Yes, I think I can recall seeing an interview with Bruce Lee where he stated this point.

But do you think that other people have miss understood what he was saying? Then published what they think?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/06/06 08:49 PM)

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#251762 - 08/06/06 09:22 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


But do you think that other people have miss understood what he was saying? Then published what they think?





People misunderstand things all the time. Which would explain why you have an "original JKD" movement.



-John

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#251763 - 08/07/06 07:18 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Posts: 341
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I have to say here that the more i improve, the more my movement (or standup at least) looks like Bruce's, and the more his concepts of interception and directness etc. come into play.

I sometimes feel, however, that some techniques we learn in class, are tailored for a fight against the untrained individual (since it is also known as scientific street fighting, you are more likely to meet an untrained individual in the street) and i can't help but think things like "that probably wouldn't work against me, but i can see it's practicality". The problem is though, that when we spar, we generally do so with a person of around the same skill level, and many of the techniques that may work well against the lay person never get practised in a fighting situation.
For example, i can distinctly remember being told to step in with a slower, looser jab than normal to test the opponent and to make him think that this is the way i fight before stunning him with a fast, powerful, tight lead. Against the lay person, i can see how this would work, but in a spar, if i was to step in with a slow loose jab, i'd probably get countered if the opponent was of similar skill.
This also goes for other techniques such as trapping. I have rarely seen trapping executed in a UFC or other professional fight, and i use it very seldom in my own sparring, but when playing around with my mates (non-MAists), it seems to work very well and i can sometimes tie them up in knots.

While i am aware that every fight is different, and that the MAist must adapt to whatever type of opponent he faces, i believe that the principles Bruce taught all have their place, and to leave some of them out (as someone suggested earlier) may be counterproductive.

Agian, i suppose it's all a matter of opinion
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#251764 - 08/07/06 09:32 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: jkdwarrior]
simplicity Offline
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simplicity just isn't so simple!...I teach my students, that most simple straight blast can deal with 90% of the general public, but we train for the 10% elite.....Great thread guys
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#251765 - 08/10/06 07:06 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: simplicity]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

simplicity just isn't so simple!...I teach my students, that most simple straight blast can deal with 90% of the general public, but we train for the 10% elite.....Great thread guys


jkdwarrior wrote
Quote:


I have to say here that the more i improve, the more my movement (or standup at least) looks like Bruce's, and the more his concepts of interception and directness etc. come into play.





That’s good, but keep in mind that Bruce would rather you to look like “you” than “him”. That’s the whole point of JKD, liberation from form, patterns and molds. If you “looked just like Bruce Lee”, you’d simply be in another mold. Food for thought.


Quote:


I sometimes feel, however, that some techniques we learn in class, are tailored for a fight against the untrained individual (since it is also known as scientific street fighting, you are more likely to meet an untrained individual in the street) and i can't help but think things like "that probably wouldn't work against me, but i can see it's practicality". The problem is though, that when we spar, we generally do so with a person of around the same skill level, and many of the techniques that may work well against the lay person never get practised in a fighting situation.

For example, i can distinctly remember being told to step in with a slower, looser jab than normal to test the opponent and to make him think that this is the way i fight before stunning him with a fast, powerful, tight lead. Against the lay person, i can see how this would work, but in a spar, if i was to step in with a slow loose jab, i'd probably get countered if the opponent was of similar skill.

This also goes for other techniques such as trapping. I have rarely seen trapping executed in a UFC or other professional fight, and i use it very seldom in my own sparring, but when playing around with my mates (non-MAists), it seems to work very well and i can sometimes tie them up in knots.





It all depends on HOW you are training, not “what” you are training. Of course the “how” will often dictate and determine then “what”. Train realistically and hard enough and you’ll dispense with a LOT of things that are simply not very functional.

Classical compound trapping that is often practiced in the wing chun or Jun Fan form, is what I consider “low percentage“. Some say, “Trapping works well, all you have to do is spend enough time with it”. What? 15 years? I’ve spent nearly 25 years in JKD. 18 of those years I spent doing a lot of trapping. I have dropped the classical methods for a reason. It CAN work, but for it’s application in fighting it simply doesn’t -- unless you have an opponent who is timid and spends a lot of time being defensive. The problem there is, attackers ATTACK, right? Otherwise they wouldn’t be called “attackers”.

So “trapping” in the classical sense, is a tool to use against a defensive fighter or a fighter beneath your level of experience and / or skill. I prefer to train for the people who do have skill and experience.


Quote:


While i am aware that every fight is different, and that the MAist must adapt to whatever type of opponent he faces, i believe that the principles Bruce taught all have their place, and to leave some of them out (as someone suggested earlier) may be counterproductive.

Agian, i suppose it's all a matter of opinion





Every principle and concept of JKD is valid and has it’s place. In fact, they are inarguable. Many of the “techniques” found in the original form leave a little to be desired. Absorb what is useful and discard the rest, right?



simplicity wrote
Quote:

simplicity just isn't so simple!...I teach my students, that most simple straight blast can deal with 90% of the general public, but we train for the 10% elite.....Great thread guys





I agree with that completely. But that exemplifies the differences between a “strategy” (the straight blast for self-defense) and TRAINING.

That is to say, to have a simple strategy where the training is more complex.

I teach a very simple strategy for self-defense. It’s easy to implement. Training however is two hours long, covers the three core ranges (standing, clinch, ground) and can be exhausting. People sweat and move. Advil is often needed afterward. They box, wrestle in the clinch, wrestle on the ground and at times, hit each other with sticks.

So again, “strategy” is one thing. The simpler the better. Training however is more arduous, though it isn’t necessarily more complex at the same time. Perhaps it is the difference between simple and easy. Training is simple, though it isn’t easy.



-John

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#251766 - 08/10/06 08:39 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Quote:

[I teach a very simple strategy for self-defense. It’s easy to implement. Training however is two hours long, covers the three core ranges (standing, clinch, ground) and can be exhausting. People sweat and move. Advil is
So again, “strategy” is one thing. The simpler the better. Training however is more arduous, though it isn’t necessarily more complex at the same time. Perhaps it is the difference between simple and easy. Training is simple, though it isn’t easy.

-John




The more complex the movement, the more difficult it is to execute, and the more concious effort you will have to put in. This means that while your brain is occupied with what you are doing, you could be getting hit.
I believe that the simpler the attack, the more you mind can be freed to work on strategy or defending against counters.

What i find in my class though, is that during standup, many of the students feel the need to throw spin kicks with alarming regularity, when a simple straight lead with a step in will suffice. When these people spar, it quickly ends up that they are getting countered, but they still don't listen (their loss really) because they want to look good.
I've also noticed that when i spar, the quickest shots are the ones that land while the big moves are the ones that finish. So it follows that in order to become good, we should aim to make our quickest shots powerful, which means jab, jab, jab. Not only can this technique completely finish an opponent after a lot of practice, but it opens up so many opportunities. In fact there is usually a remarkable difference in the overall fighting ability between someone who has mastered the jab, and someone who hasn't, just because of this one move.

Quote:

That’s good, but keep in mind that Bruce would rather you to look like “you” than “him”. That’s the whole point of JKD, liberation from form, patterns and molds. If you “looked just like Bruce Lee”, you’d simply be in another mold. Food for thought.




If it looks like Bruce's though, it is probably good technique. There are only so many ways the human body can move, and i KNOW that i'm learning it in my own way, even though it looks similar (not as good obvoiusly). It also makes me realise just how much training he put in, and just how much effort it takes to be the very best you can be. Had he lived, he would probably have shown us so much more.

Just as i'm writing this, I'm realising that the principles he left behind are sufficient for reaching our potential.Come to think of it, he probably would have gone down the same path that the entire martial arts world is currently exploring (except for the classical, unchanging types who refuse to take advantage of the overwhelming evidence of what works). Sorry to bring this up again, but i feel so strongly about it that i just can't let it go.

Anyway, yes, keep it simple. Master a small number of the fastest, simplest and most direct techniques, instead of sampling all of the many hundreds of thousands of possibilities.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (08/10/06 12:28 PM)
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#251767 - 08/10/06 12:24 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: jkdwarrior]
chukspinna Offline
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Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 15
Iv arrived a bit late in this discussion guys but I would like to add that my approach to JKD is as simple as its concept.Like my signature says,I train something until its natural,as in I feels completely comfortable using it at work,concentrating on how im standing ie every position and being able to punch/kick,from them.This is my only physical focus,what works for me to defend myself and others.I never cloud my mind with any procedure or formats.The only thing that comes close is Bruces kicking drill from his Atlanta seminar(I beleive).Open to everything that might work on the street but closed to nothing that may improve me spiritually,this is MY approach to JKD,not unique but often ignored.Like a stament earlier in the thread,if you carry on a discussion about the best methods and procedures for long enough then the said topic suddenly does become a style.To aquire knowledge then to self analyze/criticise so u need no 'Teacher' only inspiration.This is how I learn and this is what I teach. Anywhoo Il stop talkin now cos iv prob repeated everything thats been said already. Cheers guys!
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#251768 - 08/10/06 12:31 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: chukspinna]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by chukspinna -

Quote:

The only thing that comes close is Bruces kicking drill from his Atlanta seminar(I beleive).




That is interesting. I was not aware that BL did seminars when he was alive. Were you there for that? What drills are you talking about?
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#251769 - 08/10/06 05:19 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: MattJ]
chukspinna Offline
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I wish I was there,too young The drill I beleive,he adapted from a tae-kwon-do drill but utilising 'JKD' kicks, ie Starting with skip front right,front right,right side,left side.rear knee shots turn,donkey kicks etc,doubling up sometimes with fornts and sides etc stepping most of the time, finishing with two static sides.Its a bit vauge sorry,but its something that you need to be shown unfortunately.It involves a lot of kicking,control and balance.Great for flexability.One of my favourites.
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Train til its natural baby!!

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#251770 - 08/10/06 06:10 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: chukspinna]
MattJ Offline
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Do you have a link we could look at? Or something mentioning this seminar?
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#251771 - 08/10/06 09:45 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: chukspinna]
chukspinna Offline
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Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 15
Unfortunately iv picked it up third hand,it came form jesse glover or leo fong i think and i dont beleive there is any footage either the best i can do is give u this link to the guy that showed it to me,it doesnt have the drill but if u look at his finer points and dont just go "wow hes fast" you can pick up some nice little bits and bobs. http://jkd.inat.org/
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#251772 - 08/11/06 05:00 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
Quote:

You’re confusing JKD with a product and not the process that it is.
...You DO understand the JKD philosophy, correct? Judging by your posts, you don’t have a true grasp of the matter.
...That has absolutely nothing to do with the point of what is JKD.




Okay that is enough. I did not log on here to get into some argument with people about what this is. I do indeed have a perfect grasp of what matters I know of and I certainly do not need permission from the likes of you or anyone else when it comes to it. This whole posting is really unproductive and quite frankly the whole thing is old news to me and the whole concept of this being a debate is not on my level. I shall just leave y'all alone. While you're busy passing these ideas back and forth, arguing about them, and living all sorts of mental stress over the issue I'll be at the lake fishing. Good night.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (08/11/06 05:33 PM)
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"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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#251773 - 08/11/06 10:29 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
chukspinna Offline
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Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 15
Pigeon holeing is indeed a terrible thing.Like Dr Dre said "A name is just something you ask for when you buy the album"


Edited by chukspinna (08/11/06 10:31 PM)
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#251774 - 08/11/06 11:54 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


While you're busy passing these ideas back and forth, arguing about them, and living all sorts of mental stress over the issue I'll be at the lake fishing. Good night.







No stress here bro. This is a discussion forum and, this is a discussion.

No worries.



-John

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#251775 - 08/14/06 07:16 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: SmithNWessonDo]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Quote:

Quote:

You’re confusing JKD with a product and not the process that it is.
...You DO understand the JKD philosophy, correct? Judging by your posts, you don’t have a true grasp of the matter.
...That has absolutely nothing to do with the point of what is JKD.




Okay that is enough. I did not log on here to get into some argument with people about what this is. I do indeed have a perfect grasp of what matters I know of and I certainly do not need permission from the likes of you or anyone else when it comes to it. This whole posting is really unproductive and quite frankly the whole thing is old news to me and the whole concept of this being a debate is not on my level. I shall just leave y'all alone. While you're busy passing these ideas back and forth, arguing about them, and living all sorts of mental stress over the issue I'll be at the lake fishing. Good night.

edited to fix quote




Can you say.......overreaction?
_________________________
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#251776 - 11/07/06 11:55 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
What is JKD? For reference, according to Paul Vunak, these 26 arts comprise the core of Bruce Lee's JKD -

1 wing chun
2 northern mantis
3 southern mantis
4 choy lui fut
5 wu style tai chi
6 pa qua
7 hsing i
8 white crane
9 eagle claw
10 ng ga kuen
11 five animal
12 white eyebrow
13 northen shaolin
14 southern shaolin
15 bok pai
16 law horn kuen
17 chin na
18 monkey style
19 druken style
20 western fencing
21 wrestling
22 boxing
23 ju jitsu
24 kali
25 filipino sikaran
26 thai boxing

I have also seen white tiger and white crane listed as some of the 26 as well.


Edited by MattJ (01/05/07 03:46 PM)
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#251777 - 01/28/07 09:13 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Some people said that Bruce Lee regretted forming it into a seperate stlye, because it would contradict exactly what Bruce was trying to show.

And Bruce's concept, was by no means new. It had been around, and is still around now days. He just modernized it, and also introduced it to the west. He was an avid practicioner of various forms of tradional martial arts. He was just one of those guys who saw the restrictions of the culture, mysticism, etc. as ridiculous. As do I. He tried to bring something real, and useful, out of things that were otherwise succumbing to legend, myth, mysticism, lack of application (actual fighting), years of isolation, etc. I am of course speaking of kung fu.This is something I try and do too.

I am tired of people thinking they are going to be, or fight like Bruce if they join a JKD gym. In fact, I think people would be better off starting their own martial art journey, learning for themselves what is out there, and how to mold the spirit/body out of it.

ANd to the above poster, Bruce had no real experience with any of those arts. Save WC, Boxing, and maybe some Jujitsu. But other than that, it was very limited in his exposure. What he did was take the core principles that are inherent to almost all forms of CMA (such as whole body power, fajin, etc.), and just let it become a part of him. As do I, but he by no means was adept in all those arts.


Edited by BaguaMonk (01/28/07 09:15 PM)

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#251778 - 02/03/07 10:24 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
switchfoot Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 32
Loc: FL
I'm still having a difficult time understanding the principles of JKD. Can somebody help me with "getting" this idea. Everybody's talking in a prophetic and wise and philosophical way and it's just confusing the s*** out of me.

I would appreciate any help in Laemens terms, that's of course, if it's possible to describe it in a simple way.

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#251779 - 02/03/07 10:59 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: switchfoot]
JKogas Offline
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Loc: North Carolina
Post deleted by JKogas

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#251780 - 02/03/07 11:35 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
Its looking at FIGHTING and making a style that best fits YOU and YOUR ATTRIBUTES (abilities).

You must consider this scientifically, economy of motion (making a smaller movement rather than a bigger one which is slower and uses up more energy), simplicity (whats the point of learning too much? You should attempt to cover all bases with as little as possible). This way everything that incorporates your style is functional. You must test what works for you and tuning your style by constantly sparring to see what works and what doesnt. Keeps whats useful and discard whats useless.
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#251781 - 02/16/07 12:20 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
JKD123 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 8
It is just a name, xD

joking

I think it just a process of helping you learn about yourself and what works for you.

Oh i feel stupid now, it sais at the end of the tao of jeet kune do, its just a name, DONT FUSS OVER IT.



Edited by JKD123 (02/16/07 12:33 PM)

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#251782 - 03/17/07 01:14 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: switchfoot]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
Wiki has a pretty good outline of the JKD principles.

1. Be Like Water
(Water can flow/crash easily; things most martial artists strive to be able to do well)

2.Economy of motion
(The fewer movements between your attack/parry/gaurd/etc. and it's completeion while retaining power/speed/general effectiveness, the better.)

3. Learn the four ranges of combat.
a) Kicking
b) Punching
c) Trapping
d) Grappling
(Do any research into Gracie Jujutsu, and you will read about the stories of how the knocked the stuffin' outta many a stand-up Martial Arts master because said master was only good at one/two ranges. Not to start a flame war over the suprememacy of this or that, but I would say the Gracie family was trying to illustrate a severe deficiency in martial culture: mainly, tunneled-vision specialization. That same idea of not being only focused on X or Y range is presented in this Principle)

4) Five Ways of Attack
-Simple Angle Attack( A single strike to an opponent)
-Hand/Head/[insert extremity here] immobalization attack(I think you got this one...)
-Progressive Indirect Attack (Attacking a different part of the opponent to create a weakness. Example: The Classic High/Low one-two)
-Attack By Combinations (Exactly that: multiple strike sin rapid succesion to thwart an opponent)
-Attack By Drawing (Creating an opening in the opponent's gaurd to generate an opportunity for a counter-attack)

5) Three part of JKD
-Efficiency (An attack that reaches it's mark)
-Directness (Doing what feels natural in a learned way; to quote Wiki)
-Simplicity (Exactly that. You move extremetiy, you perform move, you finish. Acrobatics and flash in between is generally avoided.)

6. Centerline (Bruce borrowed this from Wing Chun. Basically like controlling the center of the baord in Chess; preserve your own center while constantly forcing the other guy to have to keep adjusting his. Kinda like throwing him off balance?)

Hope that helps.

Really though, I'd say JKD is personal liberation from partialized conditioning. In that, you no longer view things according to how you have been trained/taught, but according to what you see transpiring in front of you.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#251783 - 03/17/07 08:49 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Demonologist437]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
This may have already been mentioned, BUT...

I believe that ultimately, JKD is about the development of one's own unique "style", so to speak. JKD is about complete "self expression", which is why Lee always mandated that his JKD was "different than everyone elses". That means your's, mine and anyone else's will not ultimately look the same.

Thus the practice of JKD is "process" of that discovery rather than a "PRODUCT" (a distinct "style").

-John

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#251784 - 03/22/07 02:08 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
A resounding "Amen!" to that, Mr. Kogas.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#251785 - 04/20/07 12:34 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Demonologist437]
Sensei_Kreese Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 20
Loc: California
Some really interesting and intelligent postings on the subject. I have been training JKD since around 1986 and have been involved in waaaaaaay more than my fair share of internet battles over this subject (as well as all the political BS from way back in the Nucleus days). So, instead of trying to take the point away from the intention of the thread, I will say what I have discoverd about my own truth on the subject.

I began JKD wanting to learn everything and anything I could on Bruce Lee. I will admit to the disgruntlement of the mods here, that I love Bruce Lee and Brandon Lee. I feel a very strong connection to the man, his legacy, and all of his teachings. Does that make me a blind worshipper...no. I have loved Bruce since I first heard his name mantioned and saw my first Bruce Lee movie back in 1980. I know, that sounds contrary to what I said about not worshipping blindly at the altar of Bruce, but I also know that Bruce was only 33 years old when he died and hadn't been able to do more research in his short life.

So, I set upon my journey to obtain everything he wrote, or was written about, his life, his art, his movies, everything. For the longest time, I was a proponent of the Concepts way of JKD. I believed that what Inosanto said, was what was to be. I won't go into all the details of the journey I have been on in this regard, but I was personally successful in what I needed and wanted out of my training. Then I met someone who had/has a VERY extensive background in JKD and was a large proponent of the "original" JKD movement.

Once I began to train with him, I began to realize (very quickly) that I was missing a LOT of information on Bruce Lee's art. I was pretty stoked to be learning the things that Bruce Lee actually taught over his lifetime since the day he arrived in America. Not to sound like a "braggart" but I actually started to pick everything up very quickly and absorbed it like a sponge. I was able to meet and train with both Larry Hartsell and Leo Fong. Through them, I began to see the light, so to speak. I was even more convinced that I was doing the right thing and learning the right information. So, up to that point in my life (1995) I was pretty secure in my beliefs and couldn't be happier. Then, I was slapped in the face for the very first time.

So, to summarize my beliefs up to this point, I felt, and to a large degree, still do, that if you claim to know anything about JKD, you should have at least a basic working knowledge of what Bruce actually taught. You don't have to be a scholar on everything "Bruce Lee" but understand the proponents and connecting truths that Bruce made as a core part of his teaching.

Simplicity
Economy of motion
Centerline theory
Power-side forward THEORY
forward pressure

That is just a lumped-together category, as you can tell, as others have already touched many of the details. Obviously, those things can and do exist in many arts, not just JKD, but as a rule that is what I feel Bruce Lee wanted to be the core of the art.

For me, JKD is that which works in a street attack (and all the philosophy that you can gleen about life, etc I am not a philosopher so I won't pontificate that point LOL)

Actually, maybe I am oversimplfying myself a bit. Let's say, that I feel that JKD is that which works VERY effectively in a street attack using the above mentioned core compentancies, if you will.

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#251786 - 04/20/07 12:53 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Sensei_Kreese]
Sensei_Kreese Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 20
Loc: California
To continue my point:

So, I was a happy lil camper and training away with whom I felt (and feel) was one of the foremost experts on Bruce Lee's art. Then one day, one of my training partners told me he was training in Jiu Jitsu (Japanese not Brazilian). When I asked him why (as I felt he was getting the best possible instruction on fighting there was) his response to me was that he wanted to learn something different that might help him in a grappling type situation, as we did....zero of that in class. I was stunned to be honest with you. Then he said "You should keep your mind open, cause you never know what you might find" Then he told me "you have a lot of potential to go beyond what you have been taught here. Sure, you will probably learn a TON of what Bruce Lee actually taught, maybe more than anyone else outside of Bruce's own students, but that's it, and trust me, there is always something else you can learn"

I had prided myself on being open-minded up until this point, so it shocked me to hear that I wasn't being that way now. So, I kept his prophetic words in my memory and book-marked it. Then, a funny thing happend. I saw a "Karate" magazine with a caption on the front that read "Tony Blauer eats up grapplers and spits out the bones" That really really had my attention since the UFC was now really beginning to catch on fire.

The article was written by Steve Neklia, a well-known martial arts journalist who has trained with some of the greatest legends in the martial arts, to include Larry Hartsell and Rickson Gracie. Well, old Steve could do nothing but sing the highest praises for Tony and the things Tony was saying in the article blew me away and made me realize that I was missing something, but what?

In the same magazine, Tony had an ad for some of his videos, an audio tape, his street-fighting guides, and a t-shirt, all for a small price. I bought the package deal and when it arrived, I was completely stunned by what I saw.

After watching the first video, I actually asked myself "what have I been doing all this time?" From that point on, I became a huge fan of Tony's and thoroughly studied anything I could that he taught. I even called him a few times and got him to discuss a lot of things with me about training.

If you ask me, Tony Blauer is doing what Bruce Lee would have done had he lived, simply put. Tony and I have had many conversations about this topic and I agree with him 100%. He said "Do you think if Bruce Lee came back right now and saw all this argueing and political BS going on over his art, that he would be happy?" Of course not. He also told me that I was one of the very few JKD practitioners that embraced him, and that he was "black-balled" by the JKD community at large. When I asked him why since "You teach what works, isn't that what JKD is supposed to be all about?" Tony's reply to me was "It's about MONEY". The light switch came on.

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#251787 - 04/20/07 01:10 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Sensei_Kreese]
Sensei_Kreese Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 20
Loc: California
Did Tony show anything that I didn't know on a "physical" standpoint...not really, in fact, a lot of it looked similar to JKD in that he used a lot of economy of motion, he tended to stand with a power side forward stance (although Tony will tell you that it doesn't matter and most of the time you won't be able to choose a 'stance' when you get attacked), but what he did show was way more gritty, raw, and realistic. But, the most important thing that he taught (teaches) is the psychological aspect of training. I was more "awakened" by the things he talked about, than by what he demonstrated. Since he started, Tony has had a ton of students come and go, some of which have gone on to be pretty successful in their own rights. I will forever be grateful to Tony for waking me up and helping me to achieve that true "open-mindedness" that I needed. It actually helped me to truly appreciate what I had learned in JKD, and am still learning to this day.

From there, I was keen to keep my eyes open for anything that could help me and my students to become better at self defense and self expression. I encourage anyone to train in whatever they like, who cares what anyone else thinks about it.

I had to get off my pedastal thinking that if it isn't JKD, then it must not be good. I ended up meeting and training with so many gifted and talented martial artists after that, and I am forever grateful to Tony for being the first person to crack open my eyes.

So, here is what I think is missing from JKD as it where, or rather, from what Bruce Lee taught up until his death:

Good groundwork
Fear management
Psychological training
Weapons training

I agree that MMA training, by and large, should not be confused with JKD. JKD was designed for self defense, and/or street attacks. MMA events, although tough, brutal, and full of great athletes, is still a sport. I think sparring should be a part of training, and I think aliveness should be emphasized, but, you can spar all day long and be great at it, but in the long run, that is NOT a fight, and is it the furthest thing from an attack as you can get.

That being said, I also do not feel you can train statically and realistically expect to be able to defend yourself either. I will often ask people "do you know how to fight?" and they may answer "sure, we spar all the time" Not the same thing. Try this, the next time you want to undertsand the difference, start your sparring match when you are sitting on a chair and your partner is standing directly in front of you. allow your partner to make the first move before you do antyhing back, and try to allow basically anything, within reason.

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#251788 - 04/20/07 01:14 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Sensei_Kreese]
Sensei_Kreese Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 20
Loc: California
Now, after all of that, I still consider my JKD instructor to be my primary instructor, and I still train with him as much as I can. I still learn things about Bruce Lee's art from him that I never saw before. And yes, I have trained in many other arts, such as Muay Thai, Kali, Kung Fu, TKD, boxing, and BJJ. However, other than JKD, the only art I train in full time is BJJ.

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#251789 - 05/07/07 10:26 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Sensei_Kreese]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
Wow.

I'd say Mr. Kreese got it.

Cross the water, burn the boat.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#251790 - 06/28/07 02:08 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
RoninKurosawa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 37
Loc: United States
Allow me to first say that I am indeed a philosophical person but concerning this issue I think people concentrate too much on philosophy and not enough on science.

People love to over complacate things by making or referenceing some proverb or expression but jkd to me is the polar opposite of those tendencies. Like everyone has already said essentially jkd is about simplicity and also about results, when I say results I mean its not about anything but finding the quickest and most effective ways to beat someone in mortal combat.

Even though Lee majored in philosophy and obviously loved to use his philosophical ability to explain his methods the fact is that jkd is not philosophical at all, its simply like saying ' how can i crush this person in combat in a relatively short amount of time ? '.

jkd to me has never and still is not a style of concrete method of any kind, most of the jkd that is tought is not jkd at all its merely imitateing lee's movements. I believe thats why he ordered his schools to be torn down because people was not practicing jkd that only copied him and did not search and modify it to work best for them selves which is what jkd is also about.

List of key words for jkd to me

Self Discovery ' in combat '
Technique Refinement
Simplicity
Rapid Change ' as in, from being relatively still to suddenly close range to your opponent rapidly attacking him '
Deception ' as in, yin concealing yang and vice versa when you punch with your right hand your left hand is concealed but ready to attack and does unexpectedly, when you attack with your left hand your kick is concealed but potentially there so therefore after the left punch kick, when you kick your elbow is waiting to attack soon after so then after the kick attack violently with your elbows and punches, these all interchange and happen as a result of each other perhaps not in that order or also with other techniques but within all techniques there should be another technique concealed and waiting to attack.

Its like relentless attack, one minute your relatively slow and at long range the next second your all the sudden at mid and close range relentlessly attacking at ever growing speed and force.

Also like lee said and i'm sure you all know its about punching thru your opponent not at them, this could simply mean exactly what it says or it could also mean ' do not chase your opponent around like some sort of dance, when your close enough go thru them with whatever technique you can and stop them in their tracks ' . in other words control your opponent do not let them control you. lead them do on not let them lead you on. of course Lee was just explaining how to put more power or impact into your punch. Which does help alot.

I think fearlessness is also a factor in jkd, its been awhile since i read his books but i think he mentions something about ' laying your life in your opponents hands ' meaning do not care rather you die or lose or win only fight and whatever happens will happen naturally.

I could have got alot more philosophical and spoken a bit more proper on this subject but i've done it so many times before i think that people miss the whole point of jkd when they focus on philosophies and proverbs alike, so instead of adding anything more I will paste what jkd is in Mr. Lee's own words which are simple and direct.

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

That paragraph I completely agree with and understand as seeing a reflection of my own thoughts so my opinion of what jkd is is exactly the same as Mr. lee explained himself above in that paragraph. To me its very simple and in fact if the discussion becomes complex then its actually moving further away from the purpose of jkd.

The more complex people make it sound the less they understand. Jkd is about simplicity and being adapt in real combat, its simple and direct, there is no rules or techniques that you have to use and there is no standard in which to choose, It is only that which you make of it.

' using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation ' those words clearly express what its about to me. You do not have to take a course or train in jkd at a school to practice jkd all you have to do no matter what style you practice rather its karate, jujutsu, muai thai, wing chun, bagua zhang, aikido, hung gar, or any other style, if you use lee's principles as guidelines in your martial art then you are practicing jkd.

I would like to Point out the most important part of his paragraph relative to this topic

' Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. '

Take care everyone, see you next time.


Edited by RoninKurosawa (06/28/07 02:22 PM)

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#251791 - 07/11/07 02:11 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: RoninKurosawa]
Cadfael Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 7
Hello All,

I hope that everyone is well. I am new to these forums and I hope to gain and give insight to all that I write to. I think that all the answers that I have read thus far regarding Jeet Kune Do are quite good. Thanks to all for their input. I read on Jerry Poteet's(original Bruce Lee student)that Jeet Kune Do meant The Way of the Intercepting Fist. Mr. Poteet siad that it did not mean The Way of the Ecclectic fist, or The Way of finding your Way. It meant just what the Chinese Language means: The Way of the intercepting Fist. Personally, I can understand why Bruce Lee liked this technique so much because it is an offensive/defensive defence method that is more efficient than other methods of defence eg. Blocking, parrying etc. Those moves are less effecient. I know that he borrowed this method from Wing Chun and Western fencing. What are all of your thoughts on this?

Cadfael

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#251792 - 08/25/07 01:15 AM What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
buja Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 2
JKO based on what? maybe soft or hard teaching
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#251793 - 08/25/07 10:27 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: buja]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Both. JKD tries to see no distinction between "one or the other".

To view one as above the other is limiting. JKD is about breaking THROUGH limitations.

JKD is about using ALL ways while not being "bound" to any of them. It tries to see the truth beyond the false notion of "style".


-John

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#251794 - 09/08/07 07:18 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: MattJ]
shinkengata Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/07
Posts: 8
i dont pratice JKD but notice alot of the principals work even if you are trying to use a certian style what is efficent is efficent. i praticed Ninjutsu when i was younger with no teacher (i kno i kno dont yell) but learned alot because of stephen hays books and anatomy books i studied and sparred. i think understanding the body as much as possible can help any fighter. now i pratice southern Hung Gar with a great sifu in a strong style. what i find odd about JKD is that it reflects alot of wisdom in ninjustu, like if im going to fight a ground fighter i should know what they do and how to combat it in order to not be taken by suprise. JKD takes this kinda opinion but with the idea that you dont know who you are going to fight, so you need to know all. the problem with this IMHO is that it is not good to be a jack of all trades while a master at none. i think it is best to train one style hard and learn it's weakness and train them. while i completely dislike ground fighting i realise i may be in trouble if i get taken there, i know a good deal of body mechanics/ anatomy to help me counter this. of corse the best scenario is to use my hung gar to destroy the man before he can take me to the ground.

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#251795 - 09/22/07 08:11 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: shinkengata]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
JKD is what ever works and scores. Being bound by nothing. Using universal principles. It is simple, direct and non-classical embodied by the 5 ways of attack.

I am part of several JKD forums and usually when this question come up, so does all the BS. I am impressed nobody is having 50 fits yet...lol

I have trained in JKD for some time, but what I do, I do NOT call JKD. That's what Bruce Lee called what he does. I use the JKD term so people can understand what I am talking about and where it comes from, as do most former Bruce Lee students. I have had the pleasure of training with and talking to several former Bruce lee students and most of them use the term JKD instead of saying, "Using the universal principles and strategies that Bruce Lee used". Bruce himself admits there is "nothing new under the sun" and he didnt invent anything new. He just brought what works for 'him' together. Jack Dempsey's 'Falling step', principles from 'Fencing', WC, A lot of Muhammad Ali's 'body conditioning' Philosophy from Musashi and other great warriors....the list goes on.

As I read the other posts that were posted I agree with Bruce, "there is nothing new under the sun" (including my post)...lol And if one wants they can check-out other JKD or MA sights and find threads exactly like this one.

There are a few distinct features to JKD, but I am not getting into that here. That is up to the individual to find for themselves....(that's probably the closest thing to JKD that I said here so far)...lol

Thanks,
_________________________
"You will fight the way you train"!

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#251796 - 09/23/07 07:35 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Totality]
Totality Offline
Member

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

It is simple, direct and non-classical embodied by the 5 ways of attack.







Sorry I was re-reading my post here and notice I used the tenants of JKD and said embodied by the 5 ways of attack. This is not what is embodied by the 5 ways of attack, but rather it goes "The controlling of timing, distance & rhythm embodied by the 5 ways of attack".

Sorry for the mix-up.

Thanks,
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"You will fight the way you train"!

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#251797 - 09/23/07 10:26 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Totality]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
File this under the heading of: "My opinions...I could be wrong".

I think that "Original JKD", and whatever else for the most part that has been passed as JKD (JKD Concepts) is fairly dead at this point (with the exception of a few groups who truly get it).

If JKD is a "style", then it's definitely dead. As a style, I've personally outgrown it. In fact, I've outgrown most "styles" in this day an age.

Wasn't JKD about moving beyond stylistic limitations and boundaries? I'd have to say yes to that. If that's the case, then limiting JKD to a "way" is outdated and obsolete.

That doesn't mean that the "Five ways of attack" are obsolete however. It just means that outdated methods of training ARE.

I've trained JKD with several high-ranking individuals dating back to the early 80's. They were ahead of the pack back in those days. A few years later when some of them began working with Rickson Gracie, they were truly on the cutting edge of training. Then I saw a lot of BS. People were saying that only what Lee did between 1967 and 1973 was authentic JKD (nevermind the fact that such a philosophy circumvented every major concept of JKD that Lee had in mind).

Then you had others (JKD "Concept" crowd) who took the "buffet" approach and added everything under the sun into their training, claiming it was an "absorb what is useful" kind of thing. Those folks seemed to forget about the whole notion of "daily decrease" that Lee stressed to his followers. To them, daily INCREASE was more important. Those folks became "technique collectors" while the OJKD guys became "museum curators".

In the mean time, MMA groups began outpacing BOTH schools of thought. As a result, what once was a truly unique, "avant garde" approach to martial arts training, became just another classical, dead (static and unevolving) traditional martial arts practice, no better or worse than anything else.

Again, there are a few groups who get it. Just like everything else, 95% of the rest are just going through the motions. This is exactly why Bruce Lee shut down his schools and trashed the idea of opening a nationwide "chain" of JKD schools -- he knew that it wasn't something that was built for mass consumption.

Of course as with anything else....it ultimately made its way into the masses anyway and was subsequently diluted and bastardized...just as he knew it would be. Such is life.

Lastly, I'm a certified instructor of JKD. Yet when people come to train at my gym, "JKD" is rarely even talked about. The name is hardly ever mentioned. We just train (alive). Many things are covered and street defense is almost always at the forefront. The point is that when instructing, I don't say, "this is a JKD technique and, that is a JKD technique". Why? Because there are no such things. So, if there are no such things as JKD techniques....then is what I'm teaching JKD or just the art of human expression within human combat?

There are NO "styles" in reality. Just different methods of training the same, identical, things.


-John

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#251798 - 04/22/08 02:47 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
The_Master Offline
Banned. With extreme prejudice.

Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 145
Loc: Australia. aka The Down Under
looking at the link, i wish to learn JKD over Wing Chun, but i'm not so sure that there are many schools in my area.
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Use no way as way: JKD. Martial Arts is a way of life.

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#251799 - 04/22/08 02:49 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: The_Master]
The_Master Offline
Banned. With extreme prejudice.

Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 145
Loc: Australia. aka The Down Under
and should i learn the REAL stuff, or the Concept forms?
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Use no way as way: JKD. Martial Arts is a way of life.

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#251800 - 04/22/08 06:54 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: The_Master]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
lol @ the "REAL stuff"...

Just to let you know, there are only two kinds of "stuff". First is the "stuff" that is functional. Second is the stuff that is fantasy based.

What distinguishes the two is how training is accomplished. If the training is "alive" (not to be confused with all-out sparring or brutality), it will become functional. If the training is "dead", it will probably not develop your skill in any appreciable manner.

That is the simplest way of expressing the difference.

As different schools train in different manners, you'll have to visit a particular school to see how it is they train before you can draw a conclusion.

So to answer your question, the "real" stuff isn't Original JKD anymore than its Concepts JKD. Both types of groups can train as dead as anyone.


-John

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#251801 - 04/22/08 06:57 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
The_Master Offline
Banned. With extreme prejudice.

Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 145
Loc: Australia. aka The Down Under
well with the research i've done, there's the traditional stuff, that every1 says is purely what Bruce Lee taught, then there's concept which expands on his ideas. i'm just trying to sort out the 'difference'
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Use no way as way: JKD. Martial Arts is a way of life.

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#251802 - 05/26/08 05:26 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: The_Master]
skinters Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 239
Loc: swansea,wales
to me bruce lee was expanding his ideas all the time and those who knew him comment that everytime they saw him he was thinking and doing something different he regreted the day he coined the word jkd but he had to put a name to his movements and at the time wanted to make his own way .

if bruce lee was still with us i feel that down the years he woould have continued to shake off the name jkd and if was to coin another name would we be following that ? also if he was to say that jkd is outdated and that he has other ideas
but has no name for it would we have been waiting eager to hear what that name was so we could get started ?

im just scratching the surface on what i personaly think about jkd and what it is.if you want to train that way and get something out of it and find it works for you in the real world then good luck .

jase .


Edited by skinters (05/26/08 05:31 AM)
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if only we could strike with the eyes - from the thought to the fist how much time is lost ?

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#251803 - 08/04/08 06:30 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
Tains Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 3
For me JKD(I dont practice it so I dont really think I can talk about it) meant making your own style by following multiple. Take that which is usefull and throw away that which is useless was a quote I take to heart.

Create your own path and rules. Learning how to fight can only really be done by experience in my opinion. There will always be things you cant predict. Brucy(lol) was a brawler, and he became a martial artist. He HAD experience.

So JKD to me, is creating your own path...

how you want to do that is up to you.
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Create your own path, your own rules, and only THEN will your life bow to you.

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#251804 - 08/05/08 07:18 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Tains]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
JKD is self actualization and exploration. No more, no less. How can I be true to myself, while being safe from harm and economical in my movement. That is JKD. JKD is the answer that destroys the fear that lives in ones heart that comes from the question"Am I good enough?" . The answer simply is yes, I am, and I always was. JKD is the catalyst that brings about this self awareness and personal truth.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#251805 - 01/30/09 10:29 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: theoldone]
m9k Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 12
Loc: USA
*post deleted* If you want to chat about JKD, do it HERE, on this forum.


Edited by JKogas (01/31/09 11:27 AM)

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#420686 - 07/08/09 07:46 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: m9k]
Kentao5 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 34
Loc: Mount Joy, Pa.
JKD is, what your is experience, not someone else's interpretations.

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#428288 - 07/13/10 11:01 PM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: Wosaw]
sphs8160634 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/13/10
Posts: 3
Loc: indiana
JKD is about personal growth and freedom from dogma, yet so many try to find the "true jkd" as if Bruce Lee were God and the remaining living OBLSs are rival claimants to the papacy.
Strange what history has done to us- Bruce Lee in death has become a "magic mirror" in which each of us sees his best self.
And of course, Bruce was a martial arts teacher who started his own ..... something. The art would progress more if there were less talking and more training.
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#428302 - 07/14/10 11:48 AM Re: What IS Jeet Kune Do [Re: sphs8160634]
LifesFist Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Above Is Heaven, Down Is Earth
You probably already enjoy fruits in Your life of what You just said?
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