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differences between shaolin and wing chun ?
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differences between shaolin and wing chun ?
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#250866 - 05/04/06 10:03 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jkdwarrior Offline

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland

It's supposed to generate power and help keep your balance, right? Did Bruce have issues generating power? Have you ever tried fist-chambering techniques against an experienced boxer?

One big difference between the traditional punch and the boxer's punch is the involvement of the legs. The traditional punch can't quite make up the power because it is thrown by rotating your body around the central line. As if you're attempting to spin yourself around a pole that is positioned down from the centre of your head and out through the groin.
The boxer's punch however, is thrown by rotating your body around the opposite hip and shoulder, kind of like slamming a door. The big advantage here is that the rear leg can give an almighty shove upon impact and push the punch right through the target. As Bruce said, the karate punch is like and iron bar, but the kung fu punch (or boxer's), is like an iron ball with a chain on it, and it hurts on the inside. I've felt both and i understand what he means. While a traditional karate punch may hurt a lot and can end fights in many situations, the boxer's punch can destroy anything in it's path.
The traditional punch can get involvement of both of the legs, but no where near the extent of the kung fu shot, which should feel as if you're leaping forward and slamming your whole body through the opponent, if you miss, it will feel as though you're arm is going to fly off in the direction of the punch because it has so much power. There is one little guy in my class, about 5ft 3 and 135, and he has this technique almost perfectly. He can hit like a train, it's hard to believe, i've seen him down fighters twice his size with one of these shots.
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

#250867 - 05/04/06 12:17 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: jkdwarrior]
ShikataGaNai Offline

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Interesting. Although I favor the boxing style punch, which IMO draws from the core and has the advantage of putting your whole body behind it, I have been curious about the traditional. It just seems to me that most (this is just in my exp.) schools that teach the traditional way are going to put it to the test on boards and the schools that utilize the western technique test it on people. Not that one is better than the other, but as BL said "boards don't hit back", and I think that confirms my thinking that you should be able to keep your guard up when punching.
On a sidenote, the notion that "western" style boxing came from the west is very debatable. If you look at boxers way back in the day, they fought with their fists outstretched. Sometimes they did that silly swinging windup thing like popeye does. There is a common theory, esp in the kali/jkd circles that fighters in the phillipines, indonesia, malaysia, etc. introduced the western world to bobbing, weaving, ducking and keeping the guard up. So I guess in a sense, "western" style is more traditional than it is credited. There is a lot of detail written about this in Dan Inosanto's book about the FMA, if you can find it (it's out of print). Definitely makes for some enlightening reading.

#250868 - 05/04/06 12:18 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: jkdwarrior]
Wosaw Offline

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 16

It's supposed to generate power and help keep your balance, right? Did Bruce have issues generating power? Have you ever tried fist-chambering techniques against an experienced boxer?

Well, I have a couple of videos displaying his skills, and I doubt he had issues generating power. His kicks and the infamous 1 inch power punch obviously shows that his power was there and packing. So, as far as I can see he had no real issue generating power.

I was gonna talk about the boxer's punch, but jkdwarrior practically has that down. But hey, if you wanna apply a chambered punch (hand) feel free to, I dont have any objections.

#250869 - 05/04/06 12:22 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: Wosaw]
ShikataGaNai Offline

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Heh, neither does my right hook!

#250870 - 05/04/06 03:23 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: ShikataGaNai]
MartialMack Offline

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Nashville
I don't know much about various militaries around the world, but I do know it's safe to say that at least the U.S., British and Israeli militaries didn't adhere to "tradition" some time before Bruce came along. "Combatives" have been around for a long time, and the work of Applegate and Fairbairn (Defendu) and Imi Lichtenfeld (Krav Maga) were pre-JKD examples (c. WWII) of "modifying" traditional styles and/or techniques into being simpler and more "combat effective."

I'm sure that Bruce was aware of this. But generally speaking, most of the public was not (case probably remains true even today). However, I think that Bruce took the idea of "breaking tradition" lightyears further. Said militaries taught combatives in a very closed manner to soldiers, but Bruce very openly and vocally challenged tradition, and in a very public way -- and had the talent, support and eloquence to back it up. Simply put, I think it got the whole international MA community to rethink combat and self-defence -- and how it also applied to civilians.

The real breakthrough I think is how he emphasized all combat ranges and the idea of "alive" training. Ultimately, this has leaked over into military training as well. I remember coming across an article about how, in the '70s, the Navy SEALs began to get into his concepts, so I think that even military combatives training has adopted a more "alive" approach. Proof of this would be Paul Vunak's training of SEAL Team Six in the early '90s. Paul, who studied with one of Lee's proteges, Dan Inosanto, taught them his version of JKD, now known as Progressive Fighting Systems.

#250871 - 05/04/06 05:06 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: MartialMack]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
To look at the importance of the Western boxing structure in fighting, take a look at how the full contact kickboxing of the 60's and early 70's evolved.

At first guys went in using a more traditional approach. Then various guys with boxing training took a look, and thought they could compete and be successful themselves. They went in and started knocking the more traditional guys out.

The more successful karate fighters (Bill Wallance, Joe Lewis, just to name a few) realized they needed to evolve and began incorporating the boxing structure with predictable success.

That's primarily because they went away from the more traditional structure and the use of lead arm blocking (particularly that of the elbow moving away from the body on defense).


#250872 - 05/05/06 04:37 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: Ayub]
otobeawanker Offline

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
I just want to say I really liked your post Ayub.
To have all style is to have no style.

#250873 - 05/07/06 05:02 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: otobeawanker]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK

I just want to say I really liked your post Ayub.

Thank You Very Much!
Cut me Mick!

#250874 - 05/09/06 09:17 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: jkdwarrior]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad

I suppose i'm kind of obliged to say here that it's the person, and not the style that determines the fight outcome blah blah blah, but like it or not, the MMA technique IS superior to that of the traditional styles. It's mathematical fact.

This is gonna be good! I happen to really apprecite JKD. I also happen to know a little something about TMA. And I also happen to know alittle about math and science.

What I am slowly learning about is faceless "Know-nothings" with Battleship mouths that can't defend their row boat a$$es!

So convince us, JKD scientist! I'd love to see that algorithm or logorithm. Your choice. I want to see your JKD proof. Maybe I'll put down 22 years of TMA.

Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

#250875 - 05/09/06 09:22 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: BuDoc]
ShikataGaNai Offline

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA

So there's seriously no science in TMA? Isn't any WC that's worth it's salt all about science? I always hear them talking about trajectories, velocity, resistance, even friggin hydro physics (be like water!) I guess all that stuff was just religious mumbo jumbo and I didn't understand

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