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#250856 - 05/03/06 08:20 PM Breaking tradition
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Right so I studied traditional karate for seven years as a kid, and every single time I punched, I brought my other hand back towards my hip. Now I do only JKD and go to two classes a week.
It's also true that many martial arts classes have broken away from the traditional methods, because scientifically and mathematically this can improve the martial artist's potential.
What I can't help wonder though, is why this change didn't happen hundreds of years ago. I mean it was only after Bruce Lee showed us the way, that we all changed. Even when I was a kid, I taught myself differently than what the instructor taught, because when i was involved in Kumite (a sparring match for the non traditional MAist), I learned that it was better to keep a guard hand near my chin. I'm sure many people in the past would have noticied this also, but does anyone know why it didn't become the norm until very recently? Was Bruce merely the first to Declare it publicly? After all, he didn't invent JKD, but just noticed it, and told everyone. Were the practitioners of the past afraid? Did some people break away and start this kind of training but told no one? Has anyone else thought about this?
I suppose i'm kind of obliged to say here that it's the person, and not the style that determines the fight outcome blah blah blah, but like it or not, the MMA technique IS superior to that of the traditional styles. It's mathematical fact.
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#250857 - 05/03/06 10:04 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: jkdwarrior]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
That is a very good question. I never understood that myself. Even in the more progressive karate systems like American Kenpo, they still taught it using the hand-on-the-hip. Even though Ed Parker used to do western boxing!

Tradition, I guess.
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#250858 - 05/03/06 10:06 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: jkdwarrior]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Right, because there weren't like a BILLION boxers that already knew to put their hands up by their jawlines, or pretty much anyone from any country in south east asia. Yep, Bruce figured that one out all by himself.

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#250859 - 05/03/06 10:26 PM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: ShikataGaNai]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Right, because there weren't like a BILLION boxers that already knew to put their hands up by their jawlines, or pretty much anyone from any country in south east asia. Yep, Bruce figured that one out all by himself.




ShikataGaNai -

I believe that jkdwarrior was specifically referring to tradtional martial artists, not boxers. No one is saying the Bruce was the first one to realize about keeping hands up. But the trend in traditional martial arts was/is to have the opposite hand retract to the hip.

Bruce did start a lot of people thinking about just why they do that, in modern times.
_________________________
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#250860 - 05/04/06 01:43 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Ah, my apologies. It just seems that there are so many people in the JKD forum that just want to deify Bruce Lee - not that he wasn't amazing. But you know, some people will claim that he INVENTED the punch and that he didn't die, just went back to his planet etc. etc.

Thanks for setting it straight, MattJ.

And sorry for the jab ( ), JKDWarrrior.

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#250861 - 05/04/06 01:46 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: ShikataGaNai]
GuitarNinja Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
Bruces ignorance of the actual application of the chambered hand is what brought about his "breaking tradition" ... if he actually knew what it was used for then I doubt he would have dismissed it.
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#250862 - 05/04/06 01:47 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: MattJ]
Wosaw Offline
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 16
Good points and good questions jkdwarrior.

Quote:

I'm sure many people in the past would have noticied this also, but does anyone know why it didn't become the norm until very recently?




Well I really dont know, but my most logical explanation i can come up with is this. Ok Martial Arts has obviously been around a really long time, right. Well, styles are passed on and practiced, becoming the universal truth to most of those who practice it. I mean its like someone watching there dad practicing Karate, and all of a sudden they think its the best thing in the world (just an example dont get offended). Well thats passed on for generation to generation, and then they think there is nothing wrong with the style. If they lose to another person, they generally think its because they havent trained enough in the style they were taught. They wont think something is wrong with the style at all, and limit themselves to that thinking. But, back then im sure they noticed, thats why there are different styles, different ways of fighting, but due to tradition it never changes. Well nowadays, Im well aware of styles adding techniques and other things to themselves so I cant say it never changes, but you know what I mean. Other than that, some people in the past did notice, I remember reading something on historic M artist, and some of them (dont remember who) would change their styles or bla bla bla, you know what I mean. Now if you really think about it, back then you break away from tradition you are either cast out of killed. Example: in some countries they'd kill you for not believing in their religion back then. I'm not saying people died from not practicing a certain style lol (or maybe they did, i dont know). What im trying to say is, when you break away from tradition it generally gets someone in trouble, and people dont like it. Im just throwing ideas out there really, but im sure you know what I mean by now. So why can people point this out now? Probably because the world today is more understanding, tolerant, and more people are open minded. Well, thats what i think at least. I'd love to hear more input from other people on something like this.

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#250863 - 05/04/06 01:54 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: GuitarNinja]
Wosaw Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 16
Quote:

Bruces ignorance of the actual application of the chambered hand is what brought about his "breaking tradition" ... if he actually knew what it was used for then I doubt he would have dismissed it.




Umm, i could of sworn he got into a fight, won, and thought that it too long to beat the guy or something like that, and then started changing. I could be wrong, just wondering. Oh and everyone is ignorant one way or they other, bruce was just another human being so w/e lol.

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#250864 - 05/04/06 01:59 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: GuitarNinja]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Well...
No. JKD has always been about progressing as a martial artist and I daresay it emphasizes combat techniques that are effective for self defense today. Keep in mind that although most JKD practitioners pay close attention to form, they will always choose function as their first priority.
Bruce, Dan and Larry were all well aware of chambering the fist, but this technique did not fit with their concept. Perhaps if one of those guys did regularly chamber it would have been worked into the curriculum (I guess it still could), but they had no use for it.
I'll admit it - I've learned forms and techniques that involve chambering and I don't get it! It's supposed to generate power and help keep your balance, right? Did Bruce have issues generating power? Have you ever tried fist-chambering techniques against an experienced boxer? As impressive as it is, I'll pass and keep that rear fist by my chin, thank you. I'm pretty sure Bruce felt the same way. Remember, these guys TESTED their techniques and they tried to absorb a little bit of everything. I doubt if ignorance played much of a part in their fighting method.

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#250865 - 05/04/06 09:11 AM Re: Breaking tradition [Re: jkdwarrior]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
I think the reason must lie in the way that martial arts were practiced before a few hundred years ago. I think there was much more respect payed to the arts, in the east. I guess if anyone tried to change their art they would be disrespecting their master. Furthermore, if anyone did manage to make some new theories they would probably be challenged and probably defeated by a more experienced traditionally embracing fighter.

Before a few hundred years ago the Western hand position was probably never witnessed in the East or very little to have any lightbulbs coming up over people's heads. They just stuck to what they knew in the East and never dared to question it.

People have become more questioning over the years, the 'Western way' became more widespread and it took someone with real skill to make the appropriate links and back up their theories IMO.
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