Wow. GREAT post, John. You pretty much nutshelled everything I could have hoped to say, esp. regarding the Dog Bros, the PHI fighters and modern vs. ancient training. Of course, I do practice forms, mainly in KF, outside of class or sparring. I don't do it because I think it makes me a better fighter or even as a "reference" to various stances, strikes, etc., but to get in touch with my physical self. Believe it or not, when you focus on a form you can feel slight differences in every muscle, nerve and joint in your body. When sparring, these things run rampant without your notice - which is good and backs up the point of training for performance over pattern - but when you get the chance to slow down and FEEL those new developments in your physical makeup, well... it's kind of eye opening.
Anyway, my point is I notice a significant difference if I practice siniwali patterns or "the box" or "the tussle" or any of those fun little games. As soon as I take it to the sparring level, I don't rely on those practices, but I do notice that A) my 1 and 2 strikes become WAY more accurate, well timed and powerful and B) I manage to get off a few disarms/traps once in a while. I'm not out to uphold any kind of tradition or be an antiquated MAist (actually, my knowledge of any 'tradition' in kali is shameful) but I do feel from experience that patterns and forms can help move you in the right direction.
You are 100% right about the reality factor though. And really, is anyone "realistically" going to go out in the street and pick a fight with a trained stick/knife fighter? I would think that the stick grappling techniques would be the MOST useful in the bar room, and I doubt anyone causing major trouble would stand a chance against a skilled individual with the short cue.

Some great discussion here, I'm impressed how much everyone has to contribute, and how positive you've all been so far.



However the topic is "what STICK DRILLS do you normally practice on a regular basis?"



NOT

What sparring gear do you use or types or effectveness of disarms, or discussion on the merits of DB style training or whatever.

So guys, please all try to keep on the topic.

If you want to discuss the merits of going hard out with sparring gear etc etc or talk about disarms then make another post about that topic.

<rant ended>

Sorry Reiki, I'll try and keep to the topic, BUT I would like to add one wee rebuttle to JKogas reply to my last post.

To say a gathering or a UFC-style fight is any more real any other type of fight JUST by mentioning the ammount of damage done to the participants is a bit misleading. My point is that in any of these events there are only 2 participants, they know what weapons or techniques are allowed, they know they're going to be fighting (IE not an ambush or something), they know there is a time period, and they know they have at least some protection. This obviously affects they ways you train and fight.If you train in a harder type of contact format just to deal with the danger, all you are doing is adding pain and possible damage to a sparring situation. But would I want to take on one of these guys? Hell no! I'd also be very wary of top professional boxers and olympic wrestlers!

The drills and techniques practiced in most FMA systems are just that - drills. the Balintawak system of GM Bobby Taboada (for example) has many drills, the "shadow fighting" form, the various levels of block and counter, the disarms (When I learned Balintawak there were MANY disarms, but I understand it he has pared it down some), the "group" system and a bunch more. These drills are designed to develop the attributes of the Balintawak style, a very close range stickfighting system. Balintawak eskrimadors hit VERY hard, they have excellent infighting skills, and, if they want GM Bobby will train them in the "old school" way He was taught. Full contact, live sticks, NO protection. (However, being the US, I'm pretty sure they have to sign liablity waivers... ) Thing is, these drills and that system produce fighters who work in a different range to the DB style format. The primary goal is not to charge and crash and go to the ground the Balintawak guys train very hard not to let anyone do it to them. How would it go with one style versus the other? Depends on the guys on the day. Not neccessarily on the styles, or on the training methods.

You could have a system based entirely on the most efficient, modern methods, no "dead patterns" lots of fighting and contact, but the person training has to be able to make it his own, and find a way to use it. You could have the most over-flowery, drill based system, that never spar, but the guy may have the most amazing attributes and timing, and be able to pull off the most ridiculous looking stuff, more or less at will.

You may have read Marc Denny's article on a similar subject

http://dogbrothers.com/article_info.php?articles_id=6

Like I said in previous posts, no flame-bait intended, we just have differing opinions.

Thanks for the enjoyable dicussion John.

If you get the chance, try and do a bit of cross-training with GM Bobby, or his guys. As you said He's a pretty cool guy, and quite a boxer (have you seen any of his empty hand stuff in seminars?)

Cheers

Mike

Hey, Mike!

Yes, great discussion. Everyone is going to have differences of opinion. Nowhere is this more evident than in the Filipino martial arts. It's widely known that many of the old grandmasters didn't get along with each other, lol. That might have had to do with.....differences of opinion.

I really don't have the time to fully ingest and reply to your post, though I will try and do so later. However I did want to let you know that I have enjoyed the discussion as well. Thanks for your insights.

More later.



-John

BUMP!

can we discuss striking patterns now...

A few I can think of that I've done over the years:

--single sinawali
--single sinawali double cane
--double sinawali
--redonda
--redonda abanico
--reverse sinawali
--double cane combination drill
--Slap-off / pull-off drill (dont get any ideas, lol)
--1, 2, 5, 12 drill
--6, 7, 5, 12 drill
--5, 6, 7 drill
--Palis-palis
--6 count drill
--pingki-pingki (single, double) or maybe its spelled pinki-pinki
--single cane vs double
--right vs right tapi-tapi (1-12)
--left vs right tapi-tapi (1-12)
--right vs right trapping drills (1-5)
--left vs right trapping drills (1-5)
--inside / outside drill
--crossada drill (single, double, espada y daga)

Some of the names may be wrong or spelled wrong... does not include striking patterns, empty hand drills or empty hand trapping drills I know or have done.

freestyle attack-riposte..