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#250811 - 05/09/06 07:33 PM Re: stick drills [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
My opinion on these things has been forged through my own experience and that of others (Dog Brothers, etc) who have "been there and done that". Without question, each of them has discussed the differences between the "show" side and the "functional" side of martial arts (stick fighting and everything else). And there is a huge gulf between what is functional and what is purely aesthetic ("ornamental"). In short, there is a LOT of stuff that will NEVER work in real fights. I’ve spent over the past three years on this site saying essentially the same things.

All of the fancy disarms…don’t work in real fights. Burton Richardson will be the first person to tell you that. He fought in the Dog Brother’s “Gatherings”. It doesn’t get any more real than that.

Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work (unless perhaps you are yielding a machete). They’ve seen too many instances of people with their wrists cut through while STILL having functional grip-strength in their hands, etc.

To sum it all up, it would behoove ALL of us in the martial arts to decide that we’re either interested in functional martial arts or showy b*llsh*t. Either we want the truth, or we want to believe in fantasies. You can't really have it both ways.

I’m like Cord; there’s NOTHING wrong with pursuing more “flowery” martial arts practices – so long as you’re aware of the fact that you’re probably never going to be able to fight very well with them. And it’s that aspect of martial arts that I prefer not to waste my time, or the time of my students with. We owe it to them to bust through the myths.


Thanks Cord, by the way!


Cheers all!

-John

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#250812 - 05/11/06 05:07 AM Re: stick drills [Re: JKogas]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Great post John!

I'm all for making sure it is realistic stuff as opposed to flowery. If you train like you mean it then hopefully if you need it then you are able to use it under pressure because this is what you are used to.

Function gets my vote every time!
_________________________
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#250813 - 05/11/06 08:45 PM Re: stick drills [Re: JKogas]
mike-a Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 35
Loc: auckland, new zealand
John, nice post, but I've got a couple of thoughts on some points you raised.

"All of the fancy disarms…don’t work in real fights. Burton Richardson will be the first person to tell you that. He fought in the Dog Brother’s “Gatherings”. It doesn’t get any more real than that."

Hard as they are (and I have all kindsa respect for foilks that fight in them) a DB gathering is not exactly the same as a real stick fight. Talk to someone from the Philippines who has had to fight for their life with a stick (someone like GM Bobby Tadoada, for example). Although you wear very little protection in the DB format, headgear makes a big difference. I doubt most folks would charge and close without it, no matter how good their roof block is. And when you are up close, a punyo to the face is a *lot* different without a mask on. Not to mention the difference gloves make. Speaking of which...

"Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work (unless perhaps you are yielding a machete). They’ve seen too many instances of people with their wrists cut through while STILL having functional grip-strength in their hands, etc."

Not too sure about that... a cut to the wrist, near the base of the thumb will sever the tendons holding it in place, releasing whatever is in the hand. Tatung Ilustissimo won more than one "death match" by cutting the guys thumb off. As for hitting somone in the hand with a heavy stick (like kamagong), there are at least a couple of dozen small bones in the hand. Whacking them with a heavy hardwood stick (or an ASP baton...) with almost certainly smash thm, probably quite severely impairing hand function.

It's not my intention to flame-bait, but the DB format, and UFC are still not 100% real combat. Some (and I do mean *some*) of the "flowery" stuff was created by people to train for actual combat. Sometimes it may end up being a practical technique, other times to train an attribute. To blindly dismiss *all* of it out of hand, and without research (and maybe closer to the "source") is both a bit disrespectful, and perhaps missing out of useful material.


-----
I'll ditto your sentiments regarding a punyo in the face being rather "unpleasant". I wore one recently [as a result of an accident] and have only just got rid of the bruising...


Edited by Reiki (05/11/06 10:00 PM)

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#250814 - 05/12/06 05:33 AM Re: stick drills [Re: mike-a]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Mike, I know your post is directly addressed to JK, but as I echo his outlook on this (whilst having less experience, admittedly) I would like to to address some of your points.

disarms through severity of injury are always prone to going horribly wrong- the body has an annoying habit of withstanding stuff it has no buisness withstanding. a shot to the hand 'should' break bones, but if the hand is moving with the force placed upon it, it wont. I have dropped an engine block on my foot- hurt like hell, but nothing broke. I dont know why or how I got away with it. People fall off roofs and walk away unharmed. Predictive physics when dealing with injury is an inconstant thing.

as for the thumb tendon- a horrible injury no doubt, and ruins articulation of an object, but grip? when I was bodybuilding, i would regularly train without using my thumb in my grip, the idea behind this was to prevent forearm fatigue during pulling movements by ommiting the 'weakest link' in the grip mechanism. i was perfectly able to lift over 300lbs in such a way, and am sure I could hang on to a stick hard enough sans thumb to use it as a weapon.

your best bet in hand attacks is to create a 'shock' reflex drop of the weapon, adrenaline will override a huge amount of injury so it cant be relied on, especialy in a fight of the severity in your examples.

again, on this point, how many of us are likely to get in a filipino death match?, I doubt many Filipino's will get in such a position these days, let alone me in Cambridge UK, so again it comes down to function or self satisfaction. i may, though unlikely (hopefully), really have to hit someone with a stick (ASP/Torch) to protect myself at work. Do i train for this guy to be a burgalar launching a desperation attack to get away from being apprehended, or do I train for him to be a seasoned Filipino stick fighter looking to test his skills in a university building at 2am?

There is no disrespect in JK's or my outlook, merely taking what we need from an art. Its what everyone does in their own way.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#250815 - 05/12/06 07:28 AM Re: stick drills [Re: Cord]
mike-a Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 35
Loc: auckland, new zealand
Quote:

Mike, I know your post is directly addressed to JK, but as I echo his outlook on this (whilst having less experience, admittedly) I would like to to address some of your points.





No worries, it's all about discussion

Quote:

disarms through severity of injury are always prone to going horribly wrong- the body has an annoying habit of withstanding stuff it has no buisness withstanding. a shot to the hand 'should' break bones, but if the hand is moving with the force placed upon it, it wont. I have dropped an engine block on my foot- hurt like hell, but nothing broke. I dont know why or how I got away with it. People fall off roofs and walk away unharmed. Predictive physics when dealing with injury is an inconstant thing.





Very true. However Jk's quote was...
"Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work ..."
Not that it won't work some, or even a lot of the time. To essentially give the impression that hand-hit disarms are completely pointless (possibly my reading of it) is inaccurate.

Quote:

as for the thumb tendon- a horrible injury no doubt, and ruins articulation of an object, but grip? when I was bodybuilding, i would regularly train without using my thumb in my grip, the idea behind this was to prevent forearm fatigue during pulling movements by ommiting the 'weakest link' in the grip mechanism. i was perfectly able to lift over 300lbs in such a way, and am sure I could hang on to a stick hard enough sans thumb to use it as a weapon.




I was thinking about this as I replied, 'cos it was moving away from the stick aspect of the post. Point is a severing of the tendon may not instantly cause the weapon to drop, but to strike without the use of the thumb makes the attack pretty ineffectual, surely a "defanged snake". Try it yourself . Grip a stick just with you fingers (thumb tucked out of the way for safety) and strike a bag/tyre/post/rope as hard as you can. Without the use of the thumb, you'll lose your weapon. In combat the person would first sever the tendon, then, if the other person pressed a counter-offense (gotta love those pekiti tirsia terms) they'll lose the weapon on impact with a defensive counterstrike (or block). Your "thumbless" training was gripping, not striking.

Quote:

your best bet in hand attacks is to create a 'shock' reflex drop of the weapon, adrenaline will override a huge amount of injury so it cant be relied on, especialy in a fight of the severity in your examples.




Point taken. Again though, I have to refer back to fighting without hand protection. We do it *very* seldomly (is there such a word?). If you're training is with ice hockey gloves you notice a difference going to lighter (say street hockey) gloves, to none at all. It is quite noticeable. The thing is being hit has two effects: pain and damage. You may be able to shrug off the pain, but actual physiological damage may become impairing. We spend a *lot* of time doing hand-target sparring. In this we try to hit only the hand, with a fair ammount of power (or lots depending on the mood ) This actually achieves two things: one is we know we can hit the hand. But more importantly you learn to strike a small, moving target at will. If you can to this acurately, regularly, with power, you can pretty much hit whatever, whenever.

Quote:

again, on this point, how many of us are likely to get in a filipino death match?, I doubt many Filipino's will get in such a position these days, let alone me in Cambridge UK, so again it comes down to function or self satisfaction. i may, though unlikely (hopefully), really have to hit someone with a stick (ASP/Torch) to protect myself at work. Do i train for this guy to be a burgalar launching a desperation attack to get away from being apprehended, or do I train for him to be a seasoned Filipino stick fighter looking to test his skills in a university building at 2am?




I don't imagine any of us in the west (I hate that term) would end up in a filipino "death match" without a lot of effort on our part. But that wasn't really my point. I was trying to say that a style of fighting based, in sole or part around protection, is less likely to yeild completely realistic results than not. What the UFC is and the DB format is, is still a controlled form of combat, and participants will end up playing to, and relying on, protection and rules. (For a "no holds barred event, the UFC has an awful lot of rules...)

And, I'm sorry to say, in the provinces and poorer areas in the PI, people *do* rely on FMA skills to protect themselves (more often knife, than stick...) even today.

Quote:

There is no disrespect in JK's or my outlook, merely taking what we need from an art. Its what everyone does in their own way.




As I said earlier, it's all about the discussion. What I meant about the respect thing is a pet peeve of mine. I'm a bit tired of people disecting an art, removing what they consider to be "archiac" or whatever, but then still refering to what they do as that art. If you want to call what you do kali/eskrima/arnis/whatever, you should at least have some relation to those arts, otherwise don't call it that, 'cos it isn't. This is not a poke at you or JK or whoever, as I don't know what you guys teach or train. It's just what I meant by the disrespect statement.

As an aside Cord, you're in Cambridge? Are you at Ollie Blatt's school? I've heard good things about him...

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#250816 - 05/12/06 07:55 AM Re: stick drills [Re: mike-a]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

As an aside Cord, you're in Cambridge? Are you at Ollie Blatt's school? I've heard good things about him...




Yes I am! The Cambridge Academy of Martial Arts is Ollie Batts, and Julie's school:
( www.cambridgemartialarts.co.uk )

We do train the whole gamut of Kali/escrima techniques, and as i said in my first post, as my skill increases i may find more applicable value in techniques other than knocking peoples teeth out with a big stick , but through my own limitations i only take the basics out of the classrom for use at work.

As well as Ollie, Julie, and the assistant instructors, we also have Guro Danny Guba (Doce Pares escrima), come and do a teaching slot for us once per month. I do not attend this as it is geared towards the more advanced students, and I dont want to take up a place that could go to someone who could make something of it, as opposed to me looking lost at the back halfway through the first pattern

Ollie is one of those annoying guys who shows talent at everything he puts his mind to, from Savate to Sombo to stick work, not to mention TKD. It makes the schools interpretation of JKD (loosely based around Filipino arts- like Dan Inosanto's methods), very interesting.

i know your the other side of the world, but people do travel, if you ever make it over, give me a shout, and you can come and play
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#250817 - 05/12/06 11:41 AM Re: stick drills [Re: Cord]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"It's not my intention to flame-bait, but the DB format, and UFC are still not 100% real combat."

No flame necessary. I think (or I hope) that if those orgs were 100% real combat, people wouldn't be so into them. Why? Because then it wouldn't be any fun!!!

Guys, I hate to argue on the point of disarms, but the answer to whether they work or not is spread all over this thread - they do, just not right away. If you were able to cut a thumb tendon, wrist or make an opponenet lose enough blood, you're ripe for a disarm. The afforementioned "shock" technique works nicely too. We usually practice this way and only change the target if an eye gouge etc. would normally be used. I've also managed to pull off a few disarms and traps during sparring - again we use helmets, gloves and padded sticks, but the pressure is there so I don't completely discount it. Of course, every time I pull it off I chalk it up as luck (i'm really not that good ).
To be honest, my favorite technique is to catch or trap the arm holding the stick, then take the guy to the ground and try to choke him out. So much for the fancy stuff

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#250818 - 05/12/06 04:24 PM Re: stick drills [Re: Cord]
mike-a Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 35
Loc: auckland, new zealand
Thanks for the invite!

My JKD teacher is a student of Bob Breen's in London, and we keep threatening to go train there. I have friends in Oxford, a mere hop-skip and jump from you. So a visit is not completely out of the question.

Danny was in New Zealand for a while, a long time ago, but I did train with him. He's a good teacher, very knowledgable.
_________________________
Visit my blog: muchsod.blogspot.com

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#250819 - 05/12/06 04:34 PM Re: stick drills [Re: ShikataGaNai]
mike-a Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 35
Loc: auckland, new zealand
No-one is going to pull off a disarm "cold", you do need to mess the guy up a bit. Especialy if you're attempting a disarm from a block or trap. Soften up, then try it. Same as a takedown or joint lock.

A favourite technique of mine is to snake under the stick arm (from a trap or block). You can them apply a straight armbar on the elbow, drag him down, pull him in for a knee, hook the punyo round the back of his head to throw him,... lotsa different stuff. But to make it work so have to soften him up. I tend to go from am inside block or roof block, secure the hand and punyo a bit to the face, body, whatever, then snake under. If you train it a lot, you tend to be able to pull it off a fair bit, and if not, you're still in a (relatively) good position.
_________________________
Visit my blog: muchsod.blogspot.com

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#250820 - 05/12/06 07:31 PM Re: stick drills [Re: mike-a]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Hard as they are (and I have all kindsa respect for foilks that fight in them) a DB gathering is not exactly the same as a real stick fight.




Define “real”?

Then have a look here:

http://www.dogbrothers.com/gallery/album04

That “should” speak volumes. If those fights aren’t “real”, someone needs to tell the guy who had his kneecap split after taking a shot there. Or the guys who went to hospital for lacerated scalps, broken bones, etc.

That’s pretty amazing considering that the DB gatherings aren’t “real”.

No, no one is trying to kill their opponents (I DO understand your point) but ya know something? Mechanics are mechanics. The only thing they aren’t doing is fighting with machetes. Of course, we don’t train with them either (for “real”).

We can do one of two things; Train for performance or perform patterns.



mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Talk to someone from the Philippines who has had to fight for their life with a stick (someone like GM Bobby Tadoada, for example).





That's interesting to say the LEAST! Bobby is HERE in the Charlotte area where I’m at! What an amazing man. I’ve actually met him before at a seminar. He has always spoken well of the Dog Brothers and everything they represent. He also knows the the Dog Brothers were all taught by old Filipino guys. Erik Knaus was a student of Pikiti Tersia as were many of the others. They're just actually fighting and seeing what comes out of that "truth". Pretty important I'd say. Much better than theories and speculation about what "might work". To DO is to KNOW, if you get my meaning. The opposite would be to merely "take someone's WORD" about a 'thing'.



mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Although you wear very little protection in the DB format, headgear makes a big difference. I doubt most folks would charge and close without it, no matter how good their roof block is. And when you are up close, a punyo to the face is a *lot* different without a mask on. Not to mention the difference gloves make. Speaking of which...





They wear fencing masks often. I'm quite sure you’ll probably know that those don’t stop power shots very well. They were them primarily to protect the eyes and not get terribly cut up. You can see the damage that some of the fighters have taken even while wearing those masks. Sure it’s "some" protection but isn’t significant.

The person who doesn’t train with some kind of protection doesn’t really train, wouldn't you say?



Quote:

Jkogas wrote:
"Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work (unless perhaps you are yielding a machete). They’ve seen too many instances of people with their wrists cut through while STILL having functional grip-strength in their hands, etc."




mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Not too sure about that... a cut to the wrist, near the base of the thumb will sever the tendons holding it in place, releasing whatever is in the hand.





I am just telling you what medical doctors have expressed. I’ve discussed this very subject with doctors who train martial arts, knife and stick fighting. They speak only of experience. That’s worth a lot more than conjecture and speculation in my opinion. Kind of hard to argue with experience.


mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Tatung Ilustissimo won more than one "death match" by cutting the guys thumb off.




Trust me, I would never discredit cutting a thumb off, lol. People have and can do some amazing things due to adrenaline however. But that’s not the point, I’m aware. Kind of hard to cut the thumb off with a stick though. Context is everything. Not many people are fighting with machetes these days. That is part of it.


mike-a wrote:
Quote:


As for hitting somone in the hand with a heavy stick (like kamagong), there are at least a couple of dozen small bones in the hand. Whacking them with a heavy hardwood stick (or an ASP baton...) with almost certainly smash thm, probably quite severely impairing hand function.





Maybe, maybe not. I know hand shots work. The thing is, I wasn’t saying that hand shots weren’t effective. Nothing of the kind. I’m saying that we don’t need patterns to practice them with. That’s the gist of my argument if you think about it.

The notion of a guy losing all of his grip strength because of a defang has been somewhat disproved however. Not to say it “can’t” happen. Only that medical teams constantly test the grip strength of people who have had their tendons cut. You might be surprised at the people who retain functional strength despite severe injuries to those tendons.

Again, I’m not making this up. It has been confirmed through discussions with medical doctors from operating rooms in hospitals.


mike-a wrote:
Quote:


It's not my intention to flame-bait, but the DB format, and UFC are still not 100% real combat.





It’s as real as knees to the face hurt and cause knock outs. What more do you want to happen? Do people then need to run over them in their cars to make it more “street” credible?

Context again.

I understand the point again however. No one is saying the they are ‘street fights’. But we don’t TRAIN in barrooms or streets either for that matter. It always comes down to whether one trains for performance, or chooses to engage in dead patterns and other such unnecessary rituals.


mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Some (and I do mean *some*) of the "flowery" stuff was created by people to train for actual combat.




And much of it was also created before the advent of scientific training methods and safety equipment. There would be NO NEED to approach much of the training in the way that they did before the use of such things. Modern technology makes certain things and ways obsolete. Flowing with the times is important.


mike-a wrote:
Quote:


Sometimes it may end up being a practical technique, other times to train an attribute. To blindly dismiss *all* of it out of hand, and without research (and maybe closer to the "source") is both a bit disrespectful, and perhaps missing out of useful material.




Practical technique that never comes out during real contact stick fights? If it doesn’t come out when the need for performance arises, then you have to blame the training methods.

If it’s about attribute development, there are ways of doing so without the use of dead patterns and flowery forms. We can hit heavy bags now. We can hit focus pads now. We can even hit each OTHER now. That’s not something that the old guys in the old days would have been able to do, to the extent that WE can - again, all because of modern technology. No, it isn’t the same thing as actually hitting people over the head with a power shot when the target isn’t wearing protection. But the old guys weren’t doing that themselves. They’d have had no one to TRAIN with beyond the first session.

Times are different now. You have to embrace the new.


Thanks!


-John

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