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#249934 - 04/29/06 06:58 PM One punch,one kill
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Since I sidetracked the other thread,again......

Do you believe in it? Train for it?

I for one do not. I think it's a myth or sort of a scare tactic. I don't recall ever hearing of this happening and don't believe I will.
People all over the world hit eachother hard,all over,all of the time,sadly.
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#249935 - 04/29/06 07:46 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Like I said on the other thread, it comes from kendo I think and was adopted into ippon kumite karate competition (JKA Nakayama).

There is another saying on Okinawa: I ken no kon, train one fist to break the spirit.

I've been knocked out by fist twice in bare knuckle continous sparring (jiu kumite). And always just by one blow.

Is it possible to kill with one blow ? I've heared a rumour once that there was a man in the Yuguslavian war who claimed he could kill a man with three kicks.

I think though if you have 2 trained people, or people with real intent to fight, it will not be that easy without weapons. But once one is physicly no longer able to protect himselve properly, it could be possible.

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#249936 - 04/29/06 08:20 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
No. and No.

I think boxers prove this point every day. One punch one kill??? Not even one punch for a knockout(rarely).

It involves set ups/multiple strikes or techniques.

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#249937 - 04/29/06 08:33 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
As I said in the other thread, the Ikken Hisatsu philosophy is a direction rather than the destination. Training to improve power and accuracy to the point that only one hit is necessary is not a hollow goal. Like most everything else in "orienting" people, you have to learn to understand what is rhetoric and what is an actual instruction.

I don't want to get this into a "Bill Clinton discussion of what 'is' is," but training takes some discerning reality from esoteric description. The Ikken Hisatsu ideal is just that... an ideal. In swordfighting, it's an instruction.

Since you don't believe in that ideal, do you believe in hitting points or dim mak training, or is that "rhetorical training" as well?

I ask that question because if hitting points aren't valid, then your assumption is that only blunt force would be necessary to effect a kill from a karate punch, if that was possible. I subscribe to the idea that there are many target areas of the body where one punch is more than enough to stop things dead in their tracks, and if "targets" have differing values, then hitting the correct target might well effect an ikken hisatsu strike.

Karate is a learning experience where your strikes should get both more powerful and more accurate, and approaching that single strike goal would improve with skill and training.

I was at the field when a kid playing baseball died from being hit in the chest with a thrown ball because it interrupted his heartbeat. Do you not think that same kind of interruption could be caused by a karate strike?

I'm not arguing the point, I'm just asking.

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#249938 - 04/29/06 09:52 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Ah. yes, The baseball to the chest stopping the heartbeat argument. I have some familiarity with this one.

Possible? Absolutely.you saw it yourself, and it happens a few times a year. Probable or even likely? Not really.

Causing a disruption of that sort not only takes significant force, but a fluke in timing. The strike has to be administered(with sufficient force) in a 0.02/second during the RST wave of the heart. Statistically(if you could find enough willing subjects) you would have to hit them in the chest with sufficient force about 486,000 times before you might have the correct effect.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, wristtwister. I read many of your posts and have been impressed by you level of knowledge and information.

I also am a proponent of Kyusho-jitsu or pressure/vital point striking. And I agree with you that through your training you should get more powerful and more accurate.

So while I don't agree with one punch/one kill, I could understand a teacher that would say it to newer students to get them hyped up about using good technique for power development. Advanced students should know better.

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#249939 - 04/29/06 10:06 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
it's a phrase to describe direction of spirit or focus. first 'one punch, one kill' is a mistranslation.

'one kill'? as oppossed to what? multiple kills with one punch? lol

and a punch is not the most dangerous technique in your arsenal since the surface area of the strike is fairly large.

anyway, here's my understanding of the phrase (and similar phrases...and there are several with meaning of the same thing they describe). Where I learned this correction (because I used to take this literally as well when I first heard it), is from 2 sources: S. Kimura sensei described this several times, and it was central to his philosophy of fighting. also explained to me (in different context) by my kids' Grandfather. I blended these two sources into my own interpretation.

first, this phrase/action is NOT a Japanese version of Dim Mak. so thats the first thing to get out of our heads.

"Ikken hissatsu"

It's like putting your faith into something you know you will never be able to prove....but it doesn't make it any less real to you knowing it will never be proved. the proof is beside the point, since the point is about conviction and focus of that conviction.

The word 'kill' can be substituted with the objective of your choice. The word 'punch' can be substituted with your action of choice.

now, here is some bit of historical irony with the phrase (historical irony is the best kind )... surely, you've heard the phrase 'making a killing' - does that mean literally 'killing' or couldn't it be used by a saleman as well.
Picture this scenaro: A less than honest, or perhaps just whimsical, Japanese Karate instructor selling his 'deadly' technique to an American with this phrase...knowing full well the American mistranslates the phrase to mean literally. In that sense, the instructor really HAS 'made a killing' with a single blow. lol The thing that makes it particularly funny about this is the fact a student will NEVER dare ask the instructor to 'prove it'. lol

The history part comes in when you further imagine the American coming back to the states, honestly believing he holds your life in his closed fist. hence the myth perpetuates...

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#249940 - 04/29/06 10:12 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Nice!


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Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#249941 - 04/29/06 10:24 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Sure I think it's possible. But I think they include more techniques than just punches. I there are several strikes either with the hand, or any other well trained limb could kill in one blow.

I've seen some spectactular breaking from weiry looking old men that hold the title of master.

So yes, I do believe it is possible that if s properly placed punch/strike to an opponent can most certainly cause death. I hope I am getting the benefit of the doubt here and don't have to go into specifics such as to the probability of this happening, or the variables that come into play for a technique such as this to actually be used perfectly.

All I am saying yes, to the question. It can be done.
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#249942 - 04/29/06 10:31 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BuDoc]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Just for the record... the kid only got hit once in the chest, so the pitcher was 1 for 1.... not 1 for 486,000. As for the timing of the hit, I agree that it has to be correctly timed to cause the effect of disrupting the heart rhythm.

I would suggest, however, that since the heart has a sinus rhythm (sine wave) that almost any harmonic of that "correct" frequency could cause the same disruption of the heart rhythm. I won't argue the point, but I deal with electronic equipment every day that has sine wave inputs and they can be modulated easily by harmonic inputs. Since the body's systems are electro-chemical, there's no reason to think that it would take nearly half a million trys to duplicate the same effect. That might be the statistical calculation for commotio cordis, but I don't know that anyone has done a scientific study of that particular phenomenon in a martial arts setting where people were being struck under "supervised" conditions in the heart and chest area. If they have, I'd like to read the study results and data.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249943 - 04/29/06 10:50 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that would be alot more difficult to find volunteer subjects for such a study, than say, narcotic drug testers.... hey, $25 to smoke some weed in a observation room is pretty attractive to the struggling collegian - not that i'm admitting to it of course.

for you medicaly knowledgable, what would be the lifesaving fix in such a 'controlled' test to the heart? early defibrillation? still sounds inherently dangerous and not very controlled at all...if anything, they might have tested on animals.

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