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#249934 - 04/29/06 06:58 PM One punch,one kill
BrianS Offline
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Since I sidetracked the other thread,again......

Do you believe in it? Train for it?

I for one do not. I think it's a myth or sort of a scare tactic. I don't recall ever hearing of this happening and don't believe I will.
People all over the world hit eachother hard,all over,all of the time,sadly.
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#249935 - 04/29/06 07:46 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
CVV Offline
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Like I said on the other thread, it comes from kendo I think and was adopted into ippon kumite karate competition (JKA Nakayama).

There is another saying on Okinawa: I ken no kon, train one fist to break the spirit.

I've been knocked out by fist twice in bare knuckle continous sparring (jiu kumite). And always just by one blow.

Is it possible to kill with one blow ? I've heared a rumour once that there was a man in the Yuguslavian war who claimed he could kill a man with three kicks.

I think though if you have 2 trained people, or people with real intent to fight, it will not be that easy without weapons. But once one is physicly no longer able to protect himselve properly, it could be possible.

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#249936 - 04/29/06 08:20 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
BuDoc Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
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No. and No.

I think boxers prove this point every day. One punch one kill??? Not even one punch for a knockout(rarely).

It involves set ups/multiple strikes or techniques.

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#249937 - 04/29/06 08:33 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
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As I said in the other thread, the Ikken Hisatsu philosophy is a direction rather than the destination. Training to improve power and accuracy to the point that only one hit is necessary is not a hollow goal. Like most everything else in "orienting" people, you have to learn to understand what is rhetoric and what is an actual instruction.

I don't want to get this into a "Bill Clinton discussion of what 'is' is," but training takes some discerning reality from esoteric description. The Ikken Hisatsu ideal is just that... an ideal. In swordfighting, it's an instruction.

Since you don't believe in that ideal, do you believe in hitting points or dim mak training, or is that "rhetorical training" as well?

I ask that question because if hitting points aren't valid, then your assumption is that only blunt force would be necessary to effect a kill from a karate punch, if that was possible. I subscribe to the idea that there are many target areas of the body where one punch is more than enough to stop things dead in their tracks, and if "targets" have differing values, then hitting the correct target might well effect an ikken hisatsu strike.

Karate is a learning experience where your strikes should get both more powerful and more accurate, and approaching that single strike goal would improve with skill and training.

I was at the field when a kid playing baseball died from being hit in the chest with a thrown ball because it interrupted his heartbeat. Do you not think that same kind of interruption could be caused by a karate strike?

I'm not arguing the point, I'm just asking.

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#249938 - 04/29/06 09:52 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
BuDoc Offline
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Ah. yes, The baseball to the chest stopping the heartbeat argument. I have some familiarity with this one.

Possible? Absolutely.you saw it yourself, and it happens a few times a year. Probable or even likely? Not really.

Causing a disruption of that sort not only takes significant force, but a fluke in timing. The strike has to be administered(with sufficient force) in a 0.02/second during the RST wave of the heart. Statistically(if you could find enough willing subjects) you would have to hit them in the chest with sufficient force about 486,000 times before you might have the correct effect.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, wristtwister. I read many of your posts and have been impressed by you level of knowledge and information.

I also am a proponent of Kyusho-jitsu or pressure/vital point striking. And I agree with you that through your training you should get more powerful and more accurate.

So while I don't agree with one punch/one kill, I could understand a teacher that would say it to newer students to get them hyped up about using good technique for power development. Advanced students should know better.

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#249939 - 04/29/06 10:06 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
it's a phrase to describe direction of spirit or focus. first 'one punch, one kill' is a mistranslation.

'one kill'? as oppossed to what? multiple kills with one punch? lol

and a punch is not the most dangerous technique in your arsenal since the surface area of the strike is fairly large.

anyway, here's my understanding of the phrase (and similar phrases...and there are several with meaning of the same thing they describe). Where I learned this correction (because I used to take this literally as well when I first heard it), is from 2 sources: S. Kimura sensei described this several times, and it was central to his philosophy of fighting. also explained to me (in different context) by my kids' Grandfather. I blended these two sources into my own interpretation.

first, this phrase/action is NOT a Japanese version of Dim Mak. so thats the first thing to get out of our heads.

"Ikken hissatsu"

It's like putting your faith into something you know you will never be able to prove....but it doesn't make it any less real to you knowing it will never be proved. the proof is beside the point, since the point is about conviction and focus of that conviction.

The word 'kill' can be substituted with the objective of your choice. The word 'punch' can be substituted with your action of choice.

now, here is some bit of historical irony with the phrase (historical irony is the best kind )... surely, you've heard the phrase 'making a killing' - does that mean literally 'killing' or couldn't it be used by a saleman as well.
Picture this scenaro: A less than honest, or perhaps just whimsical, Japanese Karate instructor selling his 'deadly' technique to an American with this phrase...knowing full well the American mistranslates the phrase to mean literally. In that sense, the instructor really HAS 'made a killing' with a single blow. lol The thing that makes it particularly funny about this is the fact a student will NEVER dare ask the instructor to 'prove it'. lol

The history part comes in when you further imagine the American coming back to the states, honestly believing he holds your life in his closed fist. hence the myth perpetuates...

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#249940 - 04/29/06 10:12 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
BuDoc Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
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Nice!


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#249941 - 04/29/06 10:24 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
TeK9 Offline
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Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Sure I think it's possible. But I think they include more techniques than just punches. I there are several strikes either with the hand, or any other well trained limb could kill in one blow.

I've seen some spectactular breaking from weiry looking old men that hold the title of master.

So yes, I do believe it is possible that if s properly placed punch/strike to an opponent can most certainly cause death. I hope I am getting the benefit of the doubt here and don't have to go into specifics such as to the probability of this happening, or the variables that come into play for a technique such as this to actually be used perfectly.

All I am saying yes, to the question. It can be done.
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#249942 - 04/29/06 10:31 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BuDoc]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Just for the record... the kid only got hit once in the chest, so the pitcher was 1 for 1.... not 1 for 486,000. As for the timing of the hit, I agree that it has to be correctly timed to cause the effect of disrupting the heart rhythm.

I would suggest, however, that since the heart has a sinus rhythm (sine wave) that almost any harmonic of that "correct" frequency could cause the same disruption of the heart rhythm. I won't argue the point, but I deal with electronic equipment every day that has sine wave inputs and they can be modulated easily by harmonic inputs. Since the body's systems are electro-chemical, there's no reason to think that it would take nearly half a million trys to duplicate the same effect. That might be the statistical calculation for commotio cordis, but I don't know that anyone has done a scientific study of that particular phenomenon in a martial arts setting where people were being struck under "supervised" conditions in the heart and chest area. If they have, I'd like to read the study results and data.

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#249943 - 04/29/06 10:50 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
that would be alot more difficult to find volunteer subjects for such a study, than say, narcotic drug testers.... hey, $25 to smoke some weed in a observation room is pretty attractive to the struggling collegian - not that i'm admitting to it of course.

for you medicaly knowledgable, what would be the lifesaving fix in such a 'controlled' test to the heart? early defibrillation? still sounds inherently dangerous and not very controlled at all...if anything, they might have tested on animals.

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#249944 - 04/30/06 12:01 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
What I'm saying is
Quote:

That might be the statistical calculation for commotio cordis, but I don't know that anyone has done a scientific study of that particular phenomenon in a martial arts setting




It isn't a provable statistic, but a "calculated guess" based on population incidence, which proves nothing. If you have one death in 400,000 people, do the odds drop to 1 in 200,000 if somebody else dies, or is it 2 in 400,000?.. and where does that 400,000 number come from? (486,000 was the actual number quoted).

I laugh every day at news reports about the casualty numbers from the war in Iraq. So far, in armed conflict, fewer soldiers have died from combat(2400) in three years of war than have been killed riding motorcycles in America last year (5000). Does that automatically make it twice as safe to go to war as to ride a motorcycle? Again, it's apples and oranges here, guys and gals... or since it's three years, is that 15,000? See what I mean?

Statistically speaking, it makes me wonder what the odds are if you're riding a motorcycle in a war zone???

Seriously, I'd like to see some data. The question is how do we arrive at a legitimate morbidity figure? The original statement was rhetorical...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249945 - 04/30/06 12:56 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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you may want to rephrase how you put that....you can't be that callous. when you talk about casualties of war, you have to include BOTH sides PLUS civillians. The reason we don't have THOSE numbers is because no one will tell us. Nothing 'funny' or ironic about that.

also, we are a bit off topic.

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#249946 - 04/30/06 03:08 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: TeK9]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: S. Kimura, my info comes from a lon-time student (now an instructor). He quoted Kimura as saying "One punch, fight over". I admit that this is hear-say but no one who held the Impact Pad for Kimura would doubt that the man could certainly do damage w/ a single punch. But kill...I doubt it.

The ammount of trauma a body can withstand is variable & dependent on several factors: speed, force, area etc. I', not a physicist, doctor or hired assassin so my opinion is just that, an opinion.

Let's just get off the killing fantasy, train harder & accept the term for what it is - "sometimes all you have is one opportunity so make the most of it".

owari

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#249947 - 04/30/06 03:11 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: hedkikr]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
how about:
"One strike, one will"

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#249948 - 04/30/06 08:34 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I wasn't being callous or laughing at the casualties in either case, but the way the reporting is done. The press is constantly comparing apples to oranges or stewed tomatoes to fried okra and trying to draw a comparison.

During the second world war, Americans lost something like 17,000 troops in one day in a training accident. The World Trade Center attack killed over 3000 Americans, and a three year war has resulted in less than 2500 casualties. That's pretty good soldiering, but really bad statistical accounting for comparison purposes.

Didn't plan on hijacking this to a discussion of troop movements, but since you bring it up, my father is one of those soldiers buried in a foreign country. He and 17,000 of his closest friends rest in Margraten Military Cemetary in Holland (Battle of the Bulge). My discussion was directed at poor statistical accounting and comparison, not what was happening to the troops or motorcycle riders.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249949 - 04/30/06 08:52 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: hedkikr]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The reason karate is an art is that it requires training and application. If the only weapon available to the theory of ikken hisatsu was blunt force, I would be more than willing to agree that it's unlikely that a one hit, one life scenario was in play... However, body structure and weak points in the anatomy cause it to be more than plausible.

Strikes to the brachial plexus, windpipe, through the eye socket and into the groin are more than capable of putting someone completely out of the game. Disruptions of the heart and blood supply from striking the artery structure might be a bit slower, but still get the job done.

I won't argue the point any further, but I think it's a bit loopy to just completely dismiss something that's been a key point of training in many of the Japanese and Okinawan styles on opinions. I'm sure that many people haven't seen anyone killed with one punch, but I have been there when someone was killed with one hit by a baseball... and I don't think that a karate punch has any less force or frequency application than a thrown ball, so it can happen.

I would yield to Sensei Kimura's knowledge rather than the internet on this one.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249950 - 04/30/06 08:53 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
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wrist..drop it,everyone drop it.
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#249951 - 04/30/06 08:59 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
There may have been other factors regarding the untimely death,but you saw it I didn't.

I'll go along with the doc on this one. I think his figures are right.

I have studied pressure point strikes and I believe in them to an extent. Also accuracy and power should already be a goal,but to pretend like your punch(or strike)would kill someone is not realistic.
I do think that there are some people in K1,pride,UFC,boxing,etc that can probably hit harder than I can.Maybe they just don't know how?
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#249952 - 04/30/06 10:24 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Moderated


Edited by BrianS (04/30/06 11:43 AM)
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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249953 - 04/30/06 11:07 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
GuitarNinja Offline
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#249954 - 04/30/06 11:33 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: GuitarNinja]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
GuitarNinja,
you realize of course that none of these people actually trained in a karate school to do that, so it doesn't count. If you train for it, you can't do it.

"I do believe in ghosts,... I do... I do... I do believe in ghosts" (Cowardly lion in "The Wizard of Oz")

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249955 - 04/30/06 05:00 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

You might find this thought interesting. One of my friends/ students is Chinese. He has an interesting thought on the derivation of one strike killing based on the very poor diets of China's masses in the past. His thought is some struck with enough force who was in a near starvation diet because of being poor, might have been a contributing factor to the origins of the concept.

Or equally somebody who had some unknown alilment might have their condition agravated by a powerful strike.

Of course my doctor simply says get real. Who kills people and can demonstratably do so with a strike every time.

Yes happenstance might strike the chest when the heart is at the top of the 'T' wave and make it stop beating. It does occur, but as regrettable accident, not by design, for who can know when it's the right 1/50,000th of a second.

On the other hand, one strike that can reasonably KO or truly daze an opponent, or one strike that can drive someone down to the ground, and the knowledge how to set it up for such a strike to work, gives a situation where you might then do almost anything to such an incapaciated person, sort of one strike as good as a 'kill'.

But if I had to I'd rather blow out their knee just letting them try crawling after me than take the time to injure my hands...... theoretically speaking of course.

It's funny though how many want to cling on killing and karate.

BTW my father was a butcher and he could kill bulls with one finger 100% of the time, a finger on a 22..

And I've see the Oyama films, long ago. Don't recall much, but I understand bulls and even if tied you can hit them hard enough to put them down..... god bless one getting in the way of that strike.
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#249956 - 04/30/06 05:47 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

It's funny though how many want to cling on killing and karate.




Victor, I don't think its a matter of "killing and karate", it's more a discussion of whether karate can do what it's advertised to do through traditional teaching. I think that GuitarNinja more than proved that people can be decimated by one punch, even untrained, so it's a bit more rational to think that it's not only possible, but likely, that a trained person could effect the same thing.

For whatever reasons, we study pressure points attacking nerve centers that directly affect various organs in the body, points that cause disruption of the artery system, and then turn around and argue that our art and science can't do what we're teaching people to do in the bunkai and kata of karate.

The art of karate has built-in overkill in almost all it's techniques, with repeated follow ups and additional punches and kicks in almost every arena of kata and waza. I just think it's a little high-handed to tell the students that "all this stuff works"...and in a later time, tell them "not quite like we said". It either works as advertised, or it doesn't.

Personally, it's a goal, not a "description"... but I hit hard enough that it's not enjoyable for them... as do most of us.



Edited by wristtwister (04/30/06 05:51 PM)
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#249957 - 04/30/06 06:54 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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The 'sick or starving' bull theory is kindof what I was getting at with the Oyama story...more than meets the bullseye. plus, haven't people already been taught this lesson? remember reading the stories of Matsumura 'conditioning' the bull prior to him facing it? with Oyama, it was kindof the same deal except it was the people he conditioned to believing what they saw.

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#249958 - 04/30/06 09:07 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Victor Smith Offline
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Wrist.... But I think a more interesting question is who really advertises that karate can kill with one blow. In my short 33 years training with many people I've never seen an instructor, or school, or heard of one making such claims.

Yes I've read the historical concept, and discussions that instructors in some styles in Japan for example claim thats the power to be working towards.

But really it only seems like yak, just like the purpose of trianing is to make one a warrior. More yak.

I've had instructors that were trained in the Marines but never used such claims, and instructors who can break you but still never made such claims.

In fact the most powerful instructor I trained under went extremely out of his way to reinforce that those 'kill' concepts have absolutely nothing, ever to do with real karate training.

So where's the real beef?
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#249959 - 04/30/06 10:02 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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the real beef is in taking it with a pinch of salt and a heap of mashed potatoes on the side... if people want to add gravy, whos to fault them?

its just a figure of speech used to describe intent - making each shot count I thought is the basis of kata study.

end the threat as quickly as possible.
make each shot count.
no thought, single objective.

whatevah is your flavah of gravy, baby.

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#249960 - 04/30/06 11:17 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
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Quote:

its just a figure of speech used to describe intent - making each shot count I thought is the basis of kata study.

end the threat as quickly as possible.
make each shot count.
no thought, single objective.

whatevah is your flavah of gravy, baby.




Well said, as I said before, I would never doubt it or believe it, just that I have never seen it. Like people from MO, "show me" but if it worked I would be dead so what would I have gained? Train to be the best that you can, I hope we all can agree on this.
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#249961 - 05/01/06 02:57 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

You might find this thought interesting. One of my friends/ students is Chinese. He has an interesting thought on the derivation of one strike killing based on the very poor diets of China's masses in the past. His thought is some struck with enough force who was in a near starvation diet because of being poor, might have been a contributing factor to the origins of the concept.





A simular explenation is found in the book from Eiichi Miyazato (Okinawa den goju ryu karate do).
"In the South of China, malaria was widespread and many people became sick with the disease. Because of the nature of the illness, a strike to the abdominal region was fatal, and for this and other reasons, this area became a target in Southern kenpo.
The lifestyle environment is reflected in the different kenpo styles."

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#249962 - 05/01/06 06:52 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Forest_Tiger Offline
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I have to agree with Mr Morris.

I was trying to find the reference to this in one of Funakoshi's books but I couldn't. I was sure it stated that each strike should be made with the feeling or spirit of ending the fight with that blow.. i.e. each strike is made with full commitment and power with the aim of ending the fight, as opposed to throwing jabbing combo's etc, trying to wear down an adversary.

I think this is a perfect example of how perfectly good traditional concepts are disregarded as junk because they are given no more than a superficial glance.

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#249963 - 05/01/06 07:31 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Personally, it's a goal, not a "description"...



Quote:

its just a figure of speech used to describe intent - making each shot count I thought is the basis of kata study.




I think, for once, we agree

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249964 - 05/01/06 08:20 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Look, if you had one shot, one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted-One moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?

His palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy
There's vomit on his sweater already, mom's spaghetti
He's nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready
To drop bombs, but he keeps on forgettin
What he wrote down, the whole crowd goes so loud
He opens his mouth, but the words won't come out
He's chokin, how everybody's jokin now
The clock's run out, time's up over, bloah!
Snap back to reality, Oh there goes gravity
Oh, there goes Rabbit, he choked
He's so mad, but he won't give up that
Easy, no
He won't have it , he knows his whole back's to these ropes
It don't matter, he's dope
He knows that, but he's broke
He's so stacked that he knows
When he goes back to his mobile home, that's when it's
Back to the lab again yo
This whole rap [censored]
He better go capture this moment and hope it don't pass him

[Hook!Oo=
You better lose yourself in the music, the moment
You own it, you better never let it go
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo

The soul's escaping, through this hole that it's gaping
This world is mine for the taking
Make me king, as we move toward a, new world order
A normal life is borin, but superstardom's close to post mortem
It only grows harder, only grows hotter
He blows us all over these hoes is all on him
Coast to coast shows, he's know as the globetrotter
Lonely roads, God only knows
He's grown farther from home, he's no father
He goes home and barely knows his own daughter
But hold your nose cuz here goes the cold water
His hoes don't want him no mo, he's cold product
They moved on to the next schmoe who flows
He nose dove and sold nada
So the soap opera is told and unfolds
I suppose it's old partna', but the beat goes on
Da da dum da dum da da

You better lose yourself in the music, the moment
You own it, you better never let it go
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo

No more games, I'ma change what you call rage
Tear this mutha*BLEEP*in roof off like 2 dogs caged
I was playin in the beginnin, the mood all changed
I been chewed up and spit out and booed off stage
But I kept rhymin and stepwritin the next cypher
Best believe somebody's payin the pied piper
All the pain inside amplified by the fact
That I can't get by with my 9 to 5
And I can't provide the right type of life for my family
Cuz man, these goddam food stamps don't buy diapers
And it's no movie, there's no Mekhi Phifer, this is my life
And these times are so hard and it's getting even harder
Tryin to feed and water my seed, plus
See dishonor caught up between being a father and a prima donna
Baby mama drama's screamin on and
Too much for me to wanna
Stay in one spot, another day of monotony
Has gotten me to the point, I'm like a snail
I've got to formulate a plot fore I end up in jail or shot
Success is my only motha*REPRESSION* option, failure's not
Mom, I love you, but this trailer's got to go
I cannot grow old in Salem's lot
So here I go is my shot.
Feet fail me not cuz maybe the only opportunity that I got

You better lose yourself in the music, the moment
You own it, you better never let it go
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo

You can do anything you set your mind to, man [PC EDIT] or woman [/PCE]


Marshall Mathers


Edited by Ed_Morris (05/01/06 09:29 AM)

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#249965 - 05/01/06 08:41 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: oldman]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
This discussion has been on the forum before.

My own opinion is that the phrase was a result of the Japanese instructors coming over to the West without being able to speak enough English to convey their thoughts properly.

I believe what they meant was, to put everything you have into an attack.
_________________________
John L

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#249966 - 05/01/06 09:00 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol...wow and the lyrics made it past the censors. wait a sec...I *AM* the censor.

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#249967 - 05/01/06 06:29 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, I think you need to go back on your medication...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249968 - 05/01/06 06:47 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
One lunch, one pill.

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#249969 - 05/01/06 08:05 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina


_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249970 - 05/04/06 09:28 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Have you heard the one about the two hunters 'way back of a farmer's field? One has a heart attack. The other drops him across the farmer's electric fence and the shock gets his heart beating again.

Probably an urban legend.

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#249971 - 05/04/06 09:45 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: iaibear]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Yes.

Page
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Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#249972 - 05/11/06 01:33 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BuDoc]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Kime
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its not supposed to make sense

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#249973 - 05/16/06 12:36 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Martialist Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 2
Okay... This is my first post so I may mess this up... Anyway, I would like to say that I agree with the "one punch, one kill" theory. Though it would need to be applied through pressure points with power and accuracy.

First off boxers and UFC guys shouldn't count. They are not fighting for survival, they are fighting for a paycheck or because they just like to. So the seriousness is gone. Also, they wear gloves which will take away from the force to the pressure points.

Which brings me to my theory. If pressure points are 1 AU by 1 AU (which is the thickness of your index finger) then power to them would be diffused by hitting them with a larger object, i.e. a fist in a boxing glove. If you punch someone with, say, 40 lbs of force to a pressure point with your knuckle (or eye of the phoenix, both appox. 1 AU) it would do 40 lbs of pressure. Now take the same force with a boxing glove. Just say, for the sake of argument, that a boxing gloves area could fit 10 AU. Now you 40 lbs punch just decreased to 4 lbs to that pressure point! This is why I believe that there are no common, everyday death cases in boxing and UFC.

Lay down on the ground and have someone drop a bowling ball from 2ft on the center of your chest... it hurts... bad. But take a .22 cal bullet and shoot it to the same point and it will kill you. Speed, power and accuracy in a strike to the right pressure point will kill in one punch.

There are pressure points that if struck the person can be knocked out and die unless they get a revival technique. Also, points that once activated could kill in days. "One Punch, One Kill" never said anything about a time limit

Not easy, but who said it should be.

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#249974 - 05/16/06 01:01 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Martialist]
GuitarNinja Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
Quote:

Okay... This is my first post so I may mess this up... Anyway, I would like to say that I agree with the "one punch, one kill" theory. Though it would need to be applied through pressure points with power and accuracy.

First off boxers and UFC guys shouldn't count. They are not fighting for survival, they are fighting for a paycheck or because they just like to. So the seriousness is gone. Also, they wear gloves which will take away from the force to the pressure points.

Which brings me to my theory. If pressure points are 1 AU by 1 AU (which is the thickness of your index finger) then power to them would be diffused by hitting them with a larger object, i.e. a fist in a boxing glove. If you punch someone with, say, 40 lbs of force to a pressure point with your knuckle (or eye of the phoenix, both appox. 1 AU) it would do 40 lbs of pressure. Now take the same force with a boxing glove. Just say, for the sake of argument, that a boxing gloves area could fit 10 AU. Now you 40 lbs punch just decreased to 4 lbs to that pressure point! This is why I believe that there are no common, everyday death cases in boxing and UFC.

Lay down on the ground and have someone drop a bowling ball from 2ft on the center of your chest... it hurts... bad. But take a .22 cal bullet and shoot it to the same point and it will kill you. Speed, power and accuracy in a strike to the right pressure point will kill in one punch.

There are pressure points that if struck the person can be knocked out and die unless they get a revival technique. Also, points that once activated could kill in days. "One Punch, One Kill" never said anything about a time limit

Not easy, but who said it should be.




Reality of it all is, most boxers/fighters hit harder than 40lbs of pressure... more like 500-1500 lbs so now your back to sqaure one... a boxer who hits with 500 lbs of pressure is still hitting more than 4lbs to that pressure point ... Have you EVER been hit by someone wearing boxing gloves ?? How about MMA gloves ?? Honestly, those guys are more serious about what they do than you probaly are about what you do... I firmly believe in the "one punch, one kill" theory... but come on now... you know what its like to be in a real confrontation ?? Most people forget their own name, let alone how to properly strike and finish an opponent off with tiny ass pressure points, and im sure weve all written, heard and said our name more than practiced any technique!

Do yourself a favor, get into a small exhibition bout between a boxer or MMA guy.. then come back and tell me its not about survival.
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Mastery is in the practice itself.

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#249975 - 05/16/06 02:07 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Martialist]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
rediculous examples.

also, any 'psi' numbers have to backed up with data or reference to a study...even if it was your own, not picked out of a hat. if you are guessing, then say so...bad information spreads like herpes on the internet. bad comparisons (dropping a bowling ball vs. a fired bullet???) are like watching comparitive absorbancy tests on paper towel commercials.

one punch, one kill challenge:
1st: measure how hard the hardest hitter punches.
2nd: measure how hard and where it takes to kill someone with reproducable results.

guess what? the 2nd item, you'll never ever find data for. know why? because the study has never been done.

we hear accident reports in news stories...so of course one hit is possible to kill someone. is it reproducable or even likely? again, no reproducable data. The closest you got is the baseball to the chest during a microsecond window...since there is no way even a psychic MAists would know an opponents precise EKG in order to reproduce that result....I'd call it 'unlikely' at best. the chances are better of getting hit by lightning....but there are some who claim they can do that too.

'ikken hissatsu' is a metaphore....as in "All the world's a stage".

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#249976 - 05/16/06 02:10 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: GuitarNinja]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Guitarnija said it well!

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#249977 - 05/16/06 03:58 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: butterfly]
shuri Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Central IL
chuck norris could kill in one punch

but seriously it must be possible that a very strong experienced person could kill in one punch

my logic
could someone kill a baby in one punch, yes, why they are just a baby no defence very fragile
could they kill a 5 year old yes, still very fragile and not defencive
a ten year old, yes, more difficult though
at what point does it become impossible to kill i say it doesnt
people are basically frail and with the perfect punch lets say foreknuckles to throat or an incredibly hard punch to the chin at the correct angle yes you could kill someone it would however be very difficult i think


Edited by shuri (05/16/06 03:59 PM)
_________________________
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#249978 - 05/16/06 04:10 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: shuri]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

I suppose it's old partna', but the beat goes on
Da da dum da dum da da



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#249979 - 05/16/06 11:48 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: GuitarNinja]
Martialist Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 2
Alright...

If you guys got hung up on the numbers then you missed my point. All I was trying to say is that the force to a pressure point would be less as the striking surface area got higher.

Please understand that I was not trying to put MMA guys or boxers down. They are great athletes.

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#249980 - 09/06/06 01:04 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
yamaguchi Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 32
Loc: mississauga, Ontario, Canada
absolutly it is possible to kill a person with one punch , in the olden days people used to prove the power of there punch by punching a bull in the head and in many cases they would kill the bull in one hit so if that is possible then i think someone who has achieved such a powerful punch would have no trouble at all killing a man in one punch. the problem is that someone that powerful is very hard to find now adays
_________________________
"Take the lesson and throw away the experience" -Hanshi Wallace Platt

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#249981 - 09/06/06 01:16 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: yamaguchi]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
I am not disagreeing with the possibility to end the life of the opponent with one strike. I would like to know where you got the information to the "killing a Bull with a strike" story. I know Mas Oyama use to fight a Bull, but kill it, not on a good day. That man could punch. There was a Yoshukai guy who took on a Tiger, but this was with weapons. I would love to see written documentation of this, with some back up like pictures.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#249982 - 09/06/06 03:49 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: PaulHart]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

I am not disagreeing with the possibility to end the life of the opponent with one strike. I would like to know where you got the information to the "killing a Bull with a strike" story. I know Mas Oyama use to fight a Bull, but kill it, not on a good day. That man could punch.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UMkvcPpF1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FteS-NxwXsA

Guys you will have to draw your own conclusion about the bull thing

Hi Paul

I dont believe the one punch theory.To knock an attacker out yeah. All this talk about pressure points etc. I think the JKA perhaps what they meant was to train each technique as though it could?

Im not to sure about the bull theory, he was a skilled man but no way can any man match the strenght of a bull. Maybe an old bull?

Either way i cant see the point.


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#249983 - 09/06/06 03:58 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: GuitarNinja]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:


Do yourself a favor, get into a small exhibition bout between a boxer or MMA guy.. then come back and tell me its not about survival.




Its is about survival sometimes for the boxers and MMA,s and the third person getting in to the exibition bout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgKRt81khM&NR

Think the ref needs work on his punching? technique? and social skills.

nice take down or rather throw out
"ANIMAL

Unless its a show piece, wind up,publicity stunt



Edited by ANDY44 (09/06/06 06:29 AM)

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#249984 - 09/06/06 07:20 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
It is never really one punch that kills. Rather, the tens or hundreds of thousands of punches which came before it. There is only one opponent worth spending that much time and effort on. All this diligent training has one goal in mind...to deliver the killing blow to the opponent so that peace can be realized forever. Like thousands of drops of water which build up to the tidal wave that wipes everything away. What can you save?

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#249985 - 09/06/06 09:23 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
MikeC Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Kingston Ontario
Richard Kim related a story of how a teenage boy challenged him in his Seventies by sitting on Mr Kims car. R Kim asked him to get off, the young man, who was not alone, told him in a few profane words to get stuffed. R Kim then hit him once on the jaw and knocked him cold. Remember this was a man in his seventies. An aside to this was that R Kim 's wife scolded him for fighting.
I think one blow one kill is the ideal to train for. When the circumstances are right it can happen but you train for the situation to go longer.

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#249986 - 09/06/06 12:29 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: WuXing]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It is never really one punch that kills. Rather, the tens or hundreds of thousands of punches which came before it. There is only one opponent worth spending that much time and effort on. All this diligent training has one goal in mind...to deliver the killing blow to the opponent so that peace can be realized forever. Like thousands of drops of water which build up to the tidal wave that wipes everything away. What can you save?




Well put, WuXing. Very appropriate metaphor for martial arts training. I have seen one punch KO's before, they happen. I train my strikes to do that, but the reality is that it's very difficult to do. So I also train for the possibility that they won't work.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#249987 - 09/06/06 05:35 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: MattJ]
skycatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 26
So far I have yet to see a single blow kill a person. I did, however happen in Hawaii at a Chilli's restaurant in the early 90's.

A man was harrasing a guy trying to eat his food. The guy eating walked away but was persued by the harasser. He turned around and did a front kick to his chest and the harasser dropped dead on the spot because it stopped his heart.

I think if a person such as this, has an illness or some other physical disability it may be possible, but 2 healthy individuals, especially trained for combat, would not go belly up with a single hit IMO.

I've seen knockouts, but most of the time you should train to disable your opponent with a single blow - not try to kill him.

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#249988 - 09/06/06 05:44 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Not at ALL do I believe in the one punch, one kill. Absolute BS. Sounds good in theory, doesn't work out in application.

For sure, anything can happen. Odds are, this one won't.



-John

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#249989 - 09/06/06 09:06 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Steel91 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Alabama
Someone may have already said this, I just didn't feel like reading everything, but I believe what the saying means (unless you punch them really hard in the throat) is that one hit decides the outcome of the match. One punch is thrown to start the fight which would, back in the older days of okinawa, also mean there would be one kill most likely. Or even today if someone just didn't really care aout goiing to jail. So I guess it would be like one hit starts the beggining of the kill. Just my opinion.
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#249990 - 09/07/06 12:43 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Steel91]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
The translated Japanese phrase 'ikken issatsu' comes from the combat goal of Japanese Samurai. which makes more sense with a sword...and particularly on a battlefield.

we aren't samurai. we aren't on a battlefield. we don't have swords.

at best, a modern transformation of a phrase like this is when addressing intent...not as literal meaning. 'make each strike count', I believe is a more practical phrase for unarmed self-defense as oppossed to sword-weilding battlefield hacking.

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#249991 - 09/07/06 01:45 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: PaulHart]
yamaguchi Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 32
Loc: mississauga, Ontario, Canada
i dont have proof about my story only that these stories have been passed down to me from my lineage so perhaps its not true but i belive that it is. as for the fighting a tiger with weapons i would suggest you read the karate dojo by Sensei Peter Urban which states that Sensei Yamaguchi did fight a tiger with his bare hands and killed it
_________________________
"Take the lesson and throw away the experience" -Hanshi Wallace Platt

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#249992 - 09/07/06 03:44 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: yamaguchi]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Ummmm, yea, Peter Urban, what was I thinking?
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#249993 - 09/07/06 05:15 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: skycatcher]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Sky,

A baseball hits a kid in the chest and they die. The kick to the chest and the person dies is the same phenomena.

It is very likely the strike took place at the 1/50,000th of a second their hear't 'T' wave was at the crest. A hard srike at that time will cause the heart to stop beating, and as my surgeon tells mee, unless there is competent medical help there immediately to restart the heart death ensues.

It's just the sad reality for the circumstances. It doesn't matter who the person is how how they've trained.

Of course this is nothing any person can control. You don't know when that 1/50,000th of a second is there, nor can you control any strike to hit at that point on purpose.

Ascribing anything else is just more urban myth.

As Doc says, who anywhere has actually killed a person with a punch, and then killed multiple people with the same punch over and over to prove their skill versus serindipity.

No one that who!
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#249994 - 09/07/06 05:57 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
skycatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

Sky,

A baseball hits a kid in the chest and they die. The kick to the chest and the person dies is the same phenomena.

It is very likely the strike took place at the 1/50,000th of a second their hear't 'T' wave was at the crest. A hard srike at that time will cause the heart to stop beating, and as my surgeon tells mee, unless there is competent medical help there immediately to restart the heart death ensues.

It's just the sad reality for the circumstances. It doesn't matter who the person is how how they've trained.

Of course this is nothing any person can control. You don't know when that 1/50,000th of a second is there, nor can you control any strike to hit at that point on purpose.

Ascribing anything else is just more urban myth.

As Doc says, who anywhere has actually killed a person with a punch, and then killed multiple people with the same punch over and over to prove their skill versus serindipity.

No one that who!




I'll have to agree, that sounds very plausible. I was always tought to, as mentioned above, make every move I do count. A good front kick should send the opponent to the ground and the fight should be over - that is probably as close to the "one puch, one kill" myth as anyone is going to get IMO.

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#249995 - 09/07/06 06:44 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Quote:

Since I sidetracked the other thread,again......

Do you believe in it? Train for it?

I for one do not. I think it's a myth or sort of a scare tactic. I don't recall ever hearing of this happening and don't believe I will.
People all over the world hit eachother hard,all over,all of the time,sadly.




Ex-soldier who killed man with one punch faces prison
DAVE FINLAY

A FORMER soldier who admitted killing a man with a single punch faces a prison sentence.

Michael McDonald, 23, became involved in a drunken altercation with his victim and hit him once in the face, causing him to fall and strike his head on the road.

Engineer Robert Jenkin was found lying unconscious in the street and died in hospital a week later.

Mr Jenkin, 47, suffered three skull fractures and internal bleeding and after the long-term medical forecast was described as "hopeless" his life support machine was switched off.

McDonald, of Carnegie Court, Edinburgh, admitted killing Mr Jenkin in an assault on July 16 last year, when he appeared at the High Court.

Advocate depute Neil Beardmore said that the victim, known as Robbie, was described as "a fun person who enjoyed a drink and a sing-song".

The father-of-two lived at Moredun Park Court, in Edinburgh, with his fiancee Anne Layden. Her daughter, Yvonne, had previously gone out with McDonald and he referred to Mrs Layden as "mum".

Mr Beardmore said that on July 15 last year Mr Jenkin had gone out for a drink on the Friday night and a taxi was called to pick him up from a pub in Musselburgh.

He was dropped off in the Craigmillar area and later phoned his fiancee and asked her to pick him up.

He said: "Hurry up, they're all bams down here, they're all running about wi' samurai swords."

Mr Beardmore said that Mrs Layden, who was brought up in the area, took this to be a joke.

The prosecutor said it appeared that McDonald had been out and about that night and was drinking. He encountered his victim and punched him in the face. He ran off immediately after the attack but then came back to the scene.

Mrs Layden arrived in Craigmillar Castle Road to find Mr Jenkin lying unconscious. His head and shoulders were on the road while the rest of his body lay on the pavement.

She saw McDonald standing over him, pacing about in an agitated way. He saw her and asked: "What are you doing here this time of night, mum?" She said it was Robbie and he replied: "I didnae ken that was Robbie."

Mr Beardmore said she tried to revive Mr Jenkin and McDonald pressed his chest in a bid to help resuscitate him.

Later that weekend McDonald told two women he was going to kill himself. He was taken to hospital for treatment after being seen with cuts on his arms and wrists.

McDonald later told police that he could not remember what he had been doing on the night of the assault because of the amount of alcohol he had been drinking.

Defence counsel Jane Farquharson said: "Clearly it is a tragic case, not least for the family of Mr Jenkin."

She said that McDonald has been receiving psychiatric care as an outpatient after trying to take his life.

Lord Kinclaven deferred a sentence for culpable homicide on him for background reports, but rejected a plea to continue his bail and remanded him in custody.

This article: http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=541212006

Last updated: 08-Apr-06 12:11 BST

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#249996 - 09/07/06 06:45 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BuDoc]
Deltaforce69 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Quote:

No. and No.

I think boxers prove this point every day. One punch one kill??? Not even one punch for a knockout(rarely).

It involves set ups/multiple strikes or techniques.

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they use gloves and do not have fist condition

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#249997 - 09/07/06 06:55 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Deltaforce69]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
[



Edited by ANDY44 (09/07/06 07:30 AM)

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#249998 - 09/07/06 06:58 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
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Mr Jenkin, 47, suffered three skull fractures and internal bleeding and after the long-term medical forecast was described as "hopeless" his life support machine was switched off





My sentiments to the guys family. Makes good news but I think his relatives would rather it wasnt so.

My thoughts are that hitting his head on the pave ment might have caused his demise.

Guessing the one who did it will poss get about 4 years Jail Be out in 3

I still dont believe that the punch itself can do it.
I think the object was to train every technique as though it could.

Punches arent always the answer.
fore arms and other parts of the body are capable of knocking some one down when a punch isnt the best technique to throw.










Edited by ANDY44 (09/07/06 07:32 AM)

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#249999 - 09/07/06 11:46 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: ANDY44]
Deltaforce69 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
One punch killed star's brother
Ted Trimmer
Ted Trimmer was the younger brother of Deborah Kerr
A grandfather killed the brother of Hollywood actress Deborah Kerr with a single punch after an "unutterably trivial" dispute, a court has heard.

Eugene Warwood, 55, from Redditch, Worcestershire, shattered the jaw of retired journalist Edmund Trimmer, 78, after a "road rage" incident.

Warwood admitted the manslaughter of Mr Trimmer in West Heath, Birmingham in 2004 at an earlier hearing.

His sentencing at Birmingham Crown Court was adjourned until Thursday.

Timothy Raggatt QC, prosecuting, told Birmingham Crown Court on Wednesday that the incident had been "absolutely and entirely unprovoked".


The punch was of sufficient force to fracture the jaw and it must have rendered Mr Trimmer unconscious
Timothy Raggatt QC, prosecuting
He added: "This was a case of a road rage-style episode.

"The two men had never met and they were both out of their respective vehicles.

"What occurred prior (to the assault) is not at all easy to understand."

Mr Raggatt said it could have been that the two vehicles clipped wing mirrors or it may have had something to do with a parking space.

"If that is what happened then it was an unutterably trivial incident," he said.

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#250000 - 09/07/06 12:06 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Deltaforce69]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
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Quote:


Eugene Warwood, 55, from Redditch, Worcestershire, shattered the jaw of retired journalist Edmund Trimmer, 78, after a "road rage" incident.






mmmmmm
He was 78?
The guy who did it must be a bully
And it doesnt give a lot of details after the punch

I still dont think it is possable.


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#250001 - 09/10/06 09:31 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BuDoc]
mchammer Offline
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Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 12
Quote:

No. and No.

I think boxers prove this point every day. One punch one kill??? Not even one punch for a knockout(rarely).

It involves set ups/multiple strikes or techniques.

Page




I see your point, but i think Mike Tyson proved that people can be knocked out in one punch. Thankfully there are not thousands of Mike Tysons everywhere.....

As for killing a man with a punch.....i think it's possible, but i wouldn't like to fight knowing i can die if i get just ONE hit off some guy.

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#250002 - 09/11/06 08:46 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: mchammer]
skycatcher Offline
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Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

Quote:

No. and No.

I think boxers prove this point every day. One punch one kill??? Not even one punch for a knockout(rarely).

It involves set ups/multiple strikes or techniques.

Page




I see your point, but i think Mike Tyson proved that people can be knocked out in one punch. Thankfully there are not thousands of Mike Tysons everywhere.....

As for killing a man with a punch.....i think it's possible, but i wouldn't like to fight knowing i can die if i get just ONE hit off some guy.




Isn't that the point of most martial arts? Out in the streets you should treat every fight like a life or death situation

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#250003 - 09/11/06 02:49 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: skycatcher]
PaulHart Offline
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I agree with this, isn't every fight have the possibility to be the last, should we not enter into every combat situation as if it could be the last?

While I am no way near the skill level to kill with one strike, I believe that to train for this ability is and should remain the goal, better to have the weapon and not use it than to need it and not have it.
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#250004 - 09/12/06 12:52 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: PaulHart]
Joss Offline
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Posts: 567
"I agree with this, doesn't every fight have the possibility to be the last, should we not enter into every combat situation as if it could be the last?"

There two ways to look at this. One addresses the, "vigor", if you will, in pursuing your survival.

The other addresses the gravity of "getting into it" in the first place. This aspect deals with why it's so risky and to be avoided. And this discussion is only "living or dying", as if all outcomes are either 100% health or 100% death. Real life isn't like that (can you say lose an eye? how about a knee, wrist or shoulder?). There's lots of ugly little ways you survive, but are never really the same.

One thing I learned from racing motorcycles is that most ways that you get hurt, you never come back 100% of what was.

As far as whether I accept "one punch, one kill" as a practical expectation, not at all. I think it is a dangerous training concept as it supresses learning to assume it WON'T work and that surviving is apt to require persistence.

I'd laugh at toting a pistol with just one bullet... and guns are generally accepted as much more deadly than punches.

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#250005 - 09/12/06 01:07 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Joss]
oldman Offline
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#250006 - 09/12/06 01:32 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: oldman]
BrianS Offline
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"It's the fall that kills."

I've heard this many times. I worked with someone who was locked up for 15yrs due to a bar fight. He hit the guy once knocking him down. When the guy fell he hit the back of his head on something and died.

One punch can kill,but not in the way you might expect
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#250007 - 09/12/06 04:42 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Joss]
skycatcher Offline
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Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 26
Quote:


There two ways to look at this. One addresses the, "vigor", if you will, in pursuing your survival.





But when you get into a fight, you have no idea if this guy is out to kill you or just hurt you. You don't know if he's going to pull a knife and stab you, you don't know what will happen if he gets you on the ground and starts beating you with his fists... you don't know if he's going to stomp on your head or kick your teech out...

Point is, you don't know what to expect so you should treat ever street fight as if the person is out to kill you. Once you have the situation under control it should be you that ends the fight and walks away without killing the guy or causing permanent damage.

It's better to be safe than sorry.

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#250008 - 09/13/06 03:29 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: skycatcher]
PaulHart Offline
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I don't really approach a fight like that, I don't think "If I fight this guy, he may Kill me" because I will not allow that idea to enter my mind. Takes my attention away from where it should be. My thought is that there will be no fight, only an execution. If he crosses the line, I will deal with it quickly and decisively. In my mind this gives him no chance to fight, which by definition is give and take. In my concept, there is no give when it comes to combat.
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#250009 - 09/22/06 01:29 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
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Wow you karateka are violent folks. Trying to kill with one punch? Thought that stuff was reserved for JKD forums.

Heres my thoughts: Is it possible. Sure. Many things are possible. Is it probable. No.

Tell you a quick story. My sister got into a fight over a boy once. She jumps on this girl, hits her once and the girl collapses. They take her away in a ambulance. My sister, who previous to this was a very nice person, nearly killed the girl. She had a pacemaker and no one knew it. Not even most of her close friends. So when you are on the street you never know what lies at the end of your fist.
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#250010 - 02/20/07 05:06 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: GuitarNinja]
ShokiAnubis Offline
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Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 1
It is obvious that one hit kills are possible. You would have to be a complete incompitant fool to believe other wise.
You people have to must respect for human beings. They are weak things that can easily be felled.
That stupid fool apparently 'fighting' a bull is nothing but a show bouting idiot. The real masters dont reveal their secrets, why would they want to share thier knowlegde with the like of you people?
Martial arts are a complete waste of time. They are nothing but silly dances with 'flashy' moves which have no actuall value in combat. The only things that are remotly useful in the martial arts are Dim Mak and qi gong. And they are pretty useless unless you are a TRUE MASTER, all of these well to be frank 'losers' walking round thinking they can take on the world because they have a stinking black-belt or they have had a few amatuer boxing matches are compleltly blind to see that their so-called 'skills' are completly useless. You cant learn to ride a bike by reading an instruction manual, like you cant learn to fight, i mean really fight, like are ancestors fought on countless battle fields bathed in blood, unless you really expireance actuall life or death conflict on a regular basis. No stupid 'kata' routines are going to prepair you for that!
YOU ARE ALL WORSHIPING FAULSE IDOLS!
THE REAL MASTERS DONT WASTE THIER TIME WITH YOU PEOPLE!
IF ANYONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH WHAT I JUST SAID. I DONT CARE.
BUT EMAIL ME ANYWAY WITH YOUR VIEWS.

p.s. I am "clearly an idiot"


Edited by BrianS (02/21/07 11:53 PM)

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#250011 - 02/20/07 05:45 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: ShokiAnubis]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Dear forumites I ask for a moment of silence so that we may mourn the passing of Razwell as author of the single most insane posts on the site.

Some said that it couldn't be done--other asked "why would anyone WANT TO??"

But its clear that Razwell has some truly dedicated and frighteningly accomplished competition in the field of staggeringly nonsensical posts that still pull off being insulting at the same time.

I plan on dealing with my pain by drowing it in a fine port.

But please, mourn as you personally see fit.

Be strong, we will get thu this trying time togather.

Razwell will eventually triumph over this challanger.

(my bet BTW is one of our number is having us on---it takes real work to craft a post like ShokiAnubis wrote, )


Edited by cxt (02/20/07 05:49 PM)

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#250012 - 02/20/07 06:06 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
l947 Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 57
Loc: MO. USA
well if you all say one hit one kill is impossible because you don't believe it then fine . some say the same about kyusho and dim mac
some believe kyusho but not dim mac
but when I hit some one I'm careful not to cause death , just in case you're wrong .
if you look at a skull you see the plates join at the temple ,this is the thinest part and its at a junction of all the plate of the skull and under it is a major vain , cracking the skull here can cause an aneurysm kill with in 3 days without medical attention .
oh ya in boxing its against the rules to hit behind the ear ,


Edited by l947 (02/20/07 06:33 PM)

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#250013 - 02/21/07 11:01 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: ShokiAnubis]
Salek Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
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Loc: Minnesota
You, "ShokiAnubis", are off your rocker. I hope you get the help you need.

God Bless
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#250014 - 08/17/07 03:55 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Salek]
Alabama_Samurai Offline
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 34
Yes, I do believe in "one punch one kill". It's a simple matter of physics really. It's a matter of generating enough power to cause the physical damage that can cause death. Skulls being cracked by bare knuckle punches are nothing new. Although broken jaws, and nasal bones are MUCH more common.

If a guy's head were between a hard medium, the "one punch one kill" would be easier. Let's say that you have a guy's head on the concrete and you're somebody that can pack one heck of a punch, I can see it happening.

But to kill a man of equal size with a single punch while he is standing takes an incredible amount of power, but it IS possible. Also, a powerfull well placed punch to the back of the neck has the potential to be lethal.

If one interprets "one punch one kill" a but more loosely, to include "one strike one kill", then how could one not see this as being possible?

To be totally honest, I don't know anybody that could take my full power ridge-hand to their neck. And there are people that can throw a ridge hand MUCH harder than I can.

I believe a person can be killed with a single strike. In fact, I KNOW that they can. I'm NOT saying this from experience, but rather from knowledge of physics and human anatomy.
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#250015 - 08/17/07 05:32 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Alabama_Samurai]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Theres no doubt that its possible BUT would you bet your nutts on it, or do you train for the worst case scenario. That the guy won't be setup so that you can kill him, and that maybe, just maybe, he can fight too.

Being prepared is he best method even if you waste a technique missing him because he already fell. Better prepared then sorry!! Thats was suppose to work, Make it work don't think it works. I always say.

But yes in theory you are right, there are lots of people in jail for Man slaughter, fights that went terribly bad/sad.
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#250016 - 08/17/07 05:53 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Alabama_Samurai Offline
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 34
I believe in training for "one punch one kill" in that I believe I can ALWAYS surpass my previous ability. By training like this I keep myself from hitting a plateau. But, at the same time, I am NOT going to assume that I'm going to lay somebody out with one strike. I have every intention of laying somebody out, or breaking something with grappling, but at the same time, I don't assume that one hit is going to be all it takes. I'm going to keep fighting until either my opponent is down and no longer a threat or until I can get away.
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#250017 - 08/17/07 06:59 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Alabama_Samurai]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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Quote:

I believe in training for "one punch one kill" in that I believe I can ALWAYS surpass my previous ability. By training like this I keep myself from hitting a plateau. But, at the same time, I am NOT going to assume that I'm going to lay somebody out with one strike. I have every intention of laying somebody out, or breaking something with grappling, but at the same time, I don't assume that one hit is going to be all it takes. I'm going to keep fighting until either my opponent is down and no longer a threat or until I can get away.




Then in principle you believe in the theory but in practice you train more practical. So why do you make a stand on a theory. As you mention in grappling you expect to break someone limb, maybe but not always possible. You assume alot. Confidence is good, but over confidence is not wise.

Our theories are not that far apart except that I take whatever I can or from whatever mistake the opponent feeds me. I don't assume anything until I get home, in the mist of combat I just react. If I knock him out from a throw, sweep, strike or choke great if I knock him down or break something with strikes, stomps or locks great. If I just bloody his nose and face or internal until he submits or I can escape, great. I expect nothing that I don't make happen.

One strike, one Kill, yes I agree One strike right after another! I really don't want to Kill, unless there is no way out. The Kill I'm after is his desire to be a threat to me.



Edited by Neko456 (08/17/07 07:01 PM)
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#250018 - 08/17/07 07:12 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Alabama_Samurai Offline
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 34
I do in fact believe that a person can be killed with a single blow. That is why I defended the concept. I am simply saying that I don't believe in throwing a technique and then assuming that the opponent will dropped dead or be knocked out. There's been cases in boxing where a fighter was knocked out and then was repeatedly hit after they were already knocked-out. Now, if I see that the person is no longer a threat I an going to stop, but not until that point.
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#250019 - 08/17/07 10:01 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Alabama_Samurai]
chunky_chicken Offline
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Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 70
Loc: Merrillville, Indiana, USA
i was told of an old MA master that would take a hammer, rock, or whatever and would break his hand. then he would put it in the shape of a fist and wrap it like that to heal. the bone would come back harder and stronger, and hed do it again. repeating this over and over until the filled in the parts of his joints and he no longer had a "hand", but a giant bone block on the end of his arm. now, getting hit with this once, in the right spot, and try to say your not gonna die.

but truthfully how many people are going to do this. probly no one, maybe 1. it seemed to be pretty well agreed throughout this thread that yes, it is possible, but not probable.

though the origanl question was not can any person throw one punch that will kill. it was can one punch kill, and yes it can.

even if it comes after a several dozen

-ET

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#250020 - 08/17/07 10:27 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: chunky_chicken]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
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please find the person who told you that story and laugh at them for me.
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#250021 - 08/17/07 11:47 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: student_of_life]
chunky_chicken Offline
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Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 70
Loc: Merrillville, Indiana, USA
ha, hey now, theres a chance its true, people have done some pretty crazy things

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#250022 - 08/20/07 02:54 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: chunky_chicken]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
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Registered: 12/07/03
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Wow! this is an hilarious thread,please keep the myth/jokes coming.;)
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#250023 - 08/20/07 07:24 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: chunky_chicken]
student_of_life Offline
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
and this one time at bushi band camp, hoan soken took choki motobu's eku and stuck it up funakoshi's , and thats why his stances were so high, lol.

i have my own idea of what the one punch one kill idea stands for. it could mean anything from finish the fight as quickly as posible, to apply the correct technique to the opponent so that his ability to continue the offence is destroyed, and that technique could be anything. judge the opponents attack and apply a single motion that will destroy his ballance and provide a good angle for a damaging attack, or a hard throw. i don't like thinking of it as punch only, more like attack.
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#250024 - 08/20/07 10:13 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: chunky_chicken]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
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Quote:

i was told of an old MA master that would take a hammer, rock, or whatever and would break his hand. then he would put it in the shape of a fist and wrap it like that to heal. the bone would come back harder and stronger, and hed do it again. repeating this over and over until the filled in the parts of his joints and he no longer had a "hand", but a giant bone block on the end of his arm. now, getting hit with this once, in the right spot, and try to say your not gonna die.




Oh my.
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#250025 - 08/20/07 10:16 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: student_of_life]
jpoor Offline
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Registered: 04/11/07
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Well, if you hit the nose just right and drive the cartilage . . . no, wait, that's not right


Sure, one strike can kill.
A blow to the sternum, or other points on the heart line can stop the heart.
A strike to the throat can crush the wind pipe.
A strike to the clavicle can break it and sever a major blood vessel causing death.
A strike that breaks the femur (tough to do at best) could sever the femoral artery.

And on and on.


The trouble with relying on those types of strikes is that those blood vessels and such are placed where they are in the body for a reason. The are well protected. Sure, one punch can kill, but so can one bullet, and far too many people survive each to rely on it.
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#250026 - 08/20/07 10:34 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: chunky_chicken]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Chunky

The story may be "true" in that someone may have done it--I just doubt that it had the result they hoped.

Certain folks go big on the conditioning thing, hitting the hands with hammers etc--but to litterally break then and hope it heals better and stonger than it was before is real reach.
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#250027 - 08/20/07 12:40 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
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Leaving the quest for karate myth aside it just occured to me another answer.

Having trained a little with the late Sherman Harrill and having seen the student who took over his dojo, with intense makiwara work over several decades there is no question one punch can drop someone, no matter where they hit.

Why does the saying need translated that the punch itself kills, rather the interpretation that one punch (stops the opponent offering the opportunity to continue as needed) is enough.
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#250028 - 08/20/07 12:46 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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well said
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#250029 - 08/20/07 01:36 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Why does the saying need translated that the punch itself kills, rather the interpretation that one punch (stops the opponent offering the opportunity to continue as needed) is enough.




Simple, because there are relatively few people who understand karate's application in combat.

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#250030 - 08/20/07 01:36 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Yes thats more feasiable and makes more sense. But in certain incidents one strike has killed, but I argue, no I debate that its not a principle you should wait or bank on in a conflict. Sometimes or most times it just don't happen.

As theories goes you hear alot things, such as the center mass kill zone 1 shot stop in combat handguning. Its been proven that though the human body, Is dead (r mortally wounded) in some cases its doesn't stop defending itself until you are dead. In rare cases some people can within stand 2-3 up to 8-10 direct hits and still keep fighting from a handgun.

We are blessed with an amazing gift, that spurs the body, the human will. I'd never bet against it. Better bring your "A" game.
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#250031 - 08/20/07 01:44 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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do you?
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#250032 - 08/20/07 01:47 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Victor Smith Offline
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Posts: 3219
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Just at the rare baseball strike to the chest kills, I'm sure that there have been rare instances of martial strikes that have done so too. But who can verifiable destroy life every time with a given strike? And even if they could would you have any desire to know them, and the prison they'd be living in?

One friend who is Chinese maintains that it likely did happen in China, but as the people were often with weakened bodies from continual starvation, it may not have been as hard to do with individuals at peak health.

All things may not be equal.

Frankly, I understand the theoretical discussion to a point, but I have absolutely no desire to train to kill with a strike. And I have grave reservations about anyone who has, does or will do so.

Many Okinawan's have expressed the highest karate-ka is the one who lives longest. While they train hard, there has been little need for killing power in a strike as an objective on Okinawa.

As a saying taking more out of it than just being a saying is likely wrong.


Edited by Victor Smith (08/20/07 01:49 PM)
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#250033 - 08/20/07 02:14 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
Neko456 Offline
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Granted. Just for the purpose of this thread in Okinawa there were several cases or stories of Karateka or future Masters killing with their h2h art. Yabu killed a solider, A wrestler was kicked and killed by a well known Karateka whose name escapes me, (who died early from appendicydist, I beleive) Oyama (probably in Japan or Korea) killed a sailor defending himself, its rumoured.

So the peaceful resolution of that your Karate is greatest if you live longer, maybe is just an old man's thought in hindsight. The Practice of Karate in itself will make you fit for a longer life, compare to inactivity, but it also brings you through the trenches when it has to.

One strike, one kill, is just a theory with scattered facts.
I train it, but I don't practice it, the human body in motion is too unpredictable to be captured in a test tube.

Each strike could, but if it doesn't the next move will and so on and so on. That is what Granteeds you get old, and then think ain't karate Great.


Edited by Neko456 (08/20/07 02:16 PM)

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#250034 - 08/20/07 03:05 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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The basics, yes. Shorin Ryu karate, that is.

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#250035 - 08/20/07 03:10 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

A wrestler was kicked and killed by a well known Karateka whose name escapes me, (who died early from appendicydist, I beleive)




Neko, I believe you are refering to Ankichi Arakaki, one of Shoshin Nagamine's early teachers.

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#250036 - 08/20/07 04:19 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
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Medulant You are right, that is the gentleman I spoke of.
This young Sensei taught several of the up and coming young Masters in his short life. Again another testimony of quailty of life/Karate not quanity that makes great Karate.

Though I want to enjoy both, thats the American way.
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#250037 - 08/20/07 06:36 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Saisho Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
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If someone trains, they probably train to be able to deliver a killing strike (we don't strike half-a$$ed). If someone trains seriously , they don't train to rely on that one killing strike to work. They are prepared to do more.
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#250038 - 08/21/07 12:03 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Saisho]
Neko456 Offline
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So what did you say different then what I stated? Now you made a statement, but some disagree and believe in one strike, one kill/stop. I've seen it where they almost freeze in almost a kata or fencing like motion.

What I'm saying I guess you are too, your motion should be fluid and continous, not stagnate. You may know this but everybody doesn't, from what I've seen. Of course plenty of skilled MAs are in tune to reality.
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#250039 - 08/21/07 03:16 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

So what did you say different then what I stated?




I was just quick-posting, not replying to you. So, I am actually not saying anything different but I did not see your post when I made mine.
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#250040 - 08/21/07 04:39 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Saisho]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree to disagree, that we agree.

I bow to your superior knowledge and wisdom. A Backhanded bow.



Edited by Neko456 (08/21/07 04:41 PM)

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#250041 - 08/21/07 08:01 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

I agree to disagree, that we agree.

I bow to your superior knowledge and wisdom. A Backhanded bow.




O.K.
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#250042 - 08/23/07 11:27 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Saisho]
Ogoun Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
I believe every August or every other August, they have a tournament on Okinawa. Currently, there is no kumite in that tournament, I was told, because one of the competitors died from a strike in the second tournament. That happened in the last twelve to fifteen years. Was is a single punch or more than one. However, the Okinawans felt it was not worth the risk, and the eliminated kumite from the tournament.
Some may not believed it happened, nut assuming that it is true, what do you take from it?

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#250043 - 08/23/07 02:44 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ogoun]
Neko456 Offline
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I think its an occupational hazard, high school kids are dying from athletic events like Football, Lacrosse, Hockey, Basketball and Track. Boxers die from their ring bouts, Kickboxers and Toughmen contest also. What does it mean? People are getting weaker, playing too much Game Boys or sitting around getting soft, maybe. Because its happens doesn't mean that these things are happening regularly or often enough to say Stop Kumite people are dying from it.
These are sad accidents thats all.

I understand the concern, but sometimes there is more to the story then whats on the surface. I know and believe it can happen (one strike kills) but its so rare that you/I shouldn't and can't bank on it.

Got to still be prepared.
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#250044 - 08/23/07 08:43 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
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Let's take this in a different direction... how about the frequency of the punch? A punch taking .01 of a second would have a different frequency than that of a punch of .005 of a second to deliver the same force. Now, with that in mind, is it possible to hit the "T-wave" at the right time to accomodate the one hit necessary for death?

Also, the skeletal system transmits shock throughout the system, so is it possible that the frequency of the punch is the actual culprit of causing the commotio cordis effect? (Hope I spelled that right)... Since it isn't the "force" that causes the problem, but the frequency of the heart's sinus rhythm, it seems logical to me...

Just wanted to throw that out there for discussion. If you've ever been hit by someone doing "vibrating palm" techniques, you'll already know the answer...

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#250045 - 08/23/07 10:39 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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'frequency' isn't exactly the correct term. I think you mean 'impulse' - which is basically an amount of force applied within a range of time. (the time of impact).

"Now, with that in mind, is it possible to hit the "T-wave" at the right time to accomodate the one hit necessary for death?"
of course it is possible. The question as it related to Martial Arts is: is it reliable? that answer is no. the reason is because you don't know what T-phase your opponent's heart is in -and even if you did, it would take advanced robotic precision to time it. even then, there are other factors which are dependant upon the health/resiliance/etc of the targeted heart.

If you attempt to hit an opponent in the chest (over the heart) with a punch...you'd only manage to make him annoyed, even in the unlikely event that it wasn't at least partially deflected.

compound that with the unlikely situation of not only trying to protect yourself, but also trying to kill the attacker.

All of that makes it an unreliable and unrealistic target. time is better spent training 'sure things' than long shots, IMO.

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#250046 - 08/23/07 11:52 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Wristwister You are getting technicail on me, I agree that if you use a technique at the right time of the day and to the right vital sign you could do lots of damage, even death in theory.

But what I was calling an accident is the strike like in glove or sparring period or in Football were it was an accident. You shouldn't stop sparring because of an accident. The guy that died could have had an problem that he was not aware of.

I'd have to say that I've seen strikes to the heart have people do everything from faint, loose their breath as if hit in the solar plex or just walk around dizzy and fall to the ground eyes open but unable to move. In the least I've seen them cough breathing problem and eyes water from a strike to the heart area. Of course I'm talking barefisted in dojo self defense scenarios or and in a conflicts that an assoicate was once in. Strikes to the heart are not to be played with in my small ho.

If deflected theres hardly any effect if the guys in shape, maybe a cough and a snort.


Edited by Neko456 (08/23/07 11:54 PM)
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#250047 - 08/24/07 12:05 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Usenthemighty Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
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Loc: Nash hood , TN
Well,I train for it. )8^) I practice doing my little air punching for speed,useless kata, and bag work for power. Except I do not expect to kill anyone with one hit. I do however believe it only takes a little to finish any encounter. Especially with out gloves. ( had a terrible experience)

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#428442 - 07/19/10 10:54 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
oliver555 Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 2
I've heard years ago it's quite possible to kill with a blow. You just need to strike upwards hard at the nose to drive broken bits of bone into the brain.

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#428443 - 07/20/10 12:23 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: oliver555]
MastaFighta Offline
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Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: oliver555
I've heard years ago it's quite possible to kill with a blow. You just need to strike upwards hard at the nose to drive broken bits of bone into the brain.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=511

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#428449 - 07/20/10 06:36 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Jordan Offline
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Burbank, California
One punch, one kill should not be taken literally. This does not necessarily mean killing your opponent. It can mean finding the weakest area and hitting it as hard as you can or honing your techniques to achieve maximum effect thus incapacitating your opponent and "killing" the attack or fight or "killing" your opponent's will to fight.

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#428452 - 07/20/10 08:57 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: MastaFighta]
oliver555 Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 2
Originally Posted By: MastaFighta
Originally Posted By: oliver555
I've heard years ago it's quite possible to kill with a blow. You just need to strike upwards hard at the nose to drive broken bits of bone into the brain.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=511



Dang. I've had that myth in my head for at least 10years. Thanks for that MastaFighta.

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#428462 - 07/21/10 07:59 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Mark Jordan]
Phenix_Rider Offline
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Registered: 07/03/10
Posts: 9
It absolutely is possible to kill someone with one strike. But not necessarily a body blow. Focusing on stopping the heart is silly. You don't need to. Collapse the windpipe, break the spine, block the carotid, shock the brain hard enough, arteries in the groin... Yes, boxers survive headshots all the time, and so do hockey players and football players. But the next step up from a concussion is brain damage, and from there death.

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#428529 - 07/23/10 03:23 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: oliver555]
JMWcorwin Offline
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It is possible to create a hemorrage in that sinus? cavity between the nose and the brain. Enough pressure could (very unlikely) build up to cause brain damage or death. But, it's still not pushing the nose into the brain. It's basically just hitting the skull hard enough to create bleeding in the space betweend the brain and skull. Enough of that can kill. It was explained much more eloquently by someone else on a different thread... but I don't have the time or patience to hunt that thread down. (it may be somewhere earlier in this thread. I didn't realize how long it was until after I was finished with my post)

There are plenty of ways to kill with a single blow, and most of them require some very special circumstances, and a few do not. Easiest one? Hit someone hard enough that they fall backwards and hit their head on the sidewalk, concrete, curb, rock, coffee table, etc. This of course leads us back to the scenario mentioned above. The rest require a bit of training and those special circumstances that I am not goin to get into here. And they are low percentage anyway. You're far more likely do achieve this entirely by accident... and the judge/jury probably won't care that it was.
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#428534 - 07/23/10 05:07 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: JMWcorwin]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
I always found this topic interesting.
Thinking about it, if you take out throat shots, then howcome blokes in the ufc (who hit a lot harder than most people out there biffing in the pub do) never kill eachother after big haymakers, elbows or kicks?

A punch could knock someone, dropping their temple onto the curb, or an object such as a table, leading to death, internal bleeding etc. But I would question as to whether the punch itself could do so. Mainly based on the lack of (really) serious head injuries in professional fighting.

Then again if bob sapp superman punched a librarian I wouldnt be so sure of what I just said. Tough one

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#428551 - 07/23/10 08:05 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: TheCrab]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Well, the first reason is the level of impact is severely reduced with a padded fist vs a 2 knuckle strike.

Remember, force is inversely proportional to the area of contact, that means a full power connection is reduced by 50% or more when a padded fist is compared to the area of 2 knuckles. That doesn't even take into account the padding which absorbs some of the impact as well.

Still, with all the "protection" guys are dropped in single blows, so it's not a stretch that an unprotected hand could cause enough blunt force trama (thank you NCIS) to cause death.

It's not easy, and by no means a guarantee, but certainly quite possible.

As for elbows, a grounded opponent with a full force inward (but striking down)elbow, I could see that being quite deadly. Knees worry me more though only because guys shoot in, and a perfectly timed knee to just the right part of the skull...yikes. And that is legal in the UFC.

Legs, not so sure, a stomp absolutely, but kicks tend to land with a large surface area as well, or by the time they reach the height of the head, acceleration is often not at it's peak.

Of course there are kickers who could deliver something up high with tremendous acceleration, but landing it would be quite a challenge.

Interesting, if not morbid to ponder.
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#428820 - 08/03/10 10:11 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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#428830 - 08/03/10 11:29 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Cord]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
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wow, very sad!! Can't believe he only got 5 years..
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#428833 - 08/04/10 06:12 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: JasonM]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
It's all about intent, and that was part of the reason I posted the link.

Nobody, the law included, considers a single punch from a naked fist, to be a lethal action by intent. If it had been proven to be a lethal form of attack, than every stupid bar fight would lead to attempted murder charges.

The vast collated medical and law enforcement data regarding punch related injury shows it to be, in essence, a non-lethal action. Despite what some karate practitioners may say to the contrary.
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#428840 - 08/04/10 11:42 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:
The vast collated medical and law enforcement data regarding punch related injury shows it to be, in essence, a non-lethal action. Despite what some karate practitioners may say to the contrary.


Quite true, and I would think most people who throw a punch are not even considering the outcome would be death. But when you take to violence and it's not clear cut self defense you are still responsible for the outcome.

I think in the US he would have been convicted on voluntary manslaughter.
Quote:
Voluntary manslaughter occurs either when the defendant kills with malice aforethought (intention to kill or cause serious harm), but there are mitigating circumstances which reduce culpability, or when the defendant kills only with an intent to cause serious bodily harm.


I think US/UK law is somewhat similar on this matter, his sentence would have been 3-18 years according to one state guidelines.
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#430314 - 10/05/10 10:05 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Kimo2007]
edytharceo Offline
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Registered: 10/05/10
Posts: 2
"I've heard years ago it's quite possible to kill with a blow. You just need to strike upwards hard at the nose to drive broken bits of bone into the brain."

I don't think so that a punch can kill with one blow. Maybe it depends on the strength of the one who will make the punch.

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#430327 - 10/06/10 03:19 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: edytharceo]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Read the previous page of this thread edytharceo.(pg.5) Your question was already addressed there.
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#430448 - 10/13/10 09:49 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
kristinapetrico Offline
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Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 5
"If someone trains seriously , they don't train to rely on that one killing strike to work. They are prepared to do more."

I totally agree with this, you should not rely on one strike because in Karate there are lot of strikes you can learn and be prepared to know them all.

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#430527 - 10/18/10 09:19 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: kristinapetrico]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
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I can't believe this thread is still alive,lol.
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#430557 - 10/19/10 08:31 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
kristinapetrico Offline
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Registered: 10/13/10
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Originally Posted By: BrianS
I can't believe this thread is still alive,lol.


Because this thread is doing good that's why it is still alive.

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Mod Note: Please no mechandise related links in signature, it is against forum policy. Thanks--Ames


Edited by Ames (10/19/10 08:51 PM)
Edit Reason: offsite merchandise link

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#430560 - 10/19/10 09:37 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: kristinapetrico]
Ames Offline
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Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Frankly, I don't know why this post went beyond Ed Morris' reply on the first page of the thread...pretty much summed it up.
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#431285 - 01/06/11 06:36 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ames]
MassAnarchy Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 1
I like browsing the web at night reading different articles trying to improve my knowledge and I fell upon this one so sorry to drag it on.

I read the first 10 pages which say much of the same but neglect to mention/cover a few aspects.

I have been doing karate for sum 8 years and have trained for more and I have achieved my Shodan and am a resonably able person ( I train 3 times a week, from weights to bag work, makiwara etc ). Added to that I am studying engineering so I look at things in a different way perhaps.

Firstly it was hinted at but not discussed, what I speak of is where the head ( in this example ) is at when struck. If the man is standing when struck there is almost no chance of a lethal punch. Why you may ask. Because firstly there is very little resistance to oppose the force of the punch, meaning the head will move in the opposite direction when struck and this will in effect absorb a lot of the effectiveness of the blow. To counter this the impulse of the punch has to be incredibly short with respect to time to deliver the force from the punch into breaking the skull etc. and not moving it. The chances of lethality increase if the person is moving towards the punching, thus increasing the opposing force. When this scenario changes to the mans head lying on the ground, its a whole different story. Their is as much force opposing the blow as you can muster in your punch. Therefore almost all the force is driving into breaking the skull etc. This paired with a short impulse and perhaps the middle knuckle making first contact ( seeing as the middle knuckle sometimes protrudes outward more than the rest ) can created enought pressure to crack the skull and cause verious other sorts of damage. Of course the person dilivering the blow needs to have trained for many years and would have to be very strong, but albeit few, there are such people.

So there is absolutely no cause to doubt that a single punch can kill a man. Sure there are certain circumstances that would be required for such a feat but it is in no way impossible.

However, most practioners of martial arts are useless. I have met many Shodans and Nidans etc. and maybe 1 out of a 100 can actually have a hope of winning in a proper fight. Because in the end, its the mentality of the person and their personal training which makes them effective. Its the artist that makes the art not the technique he/she knows.



Edited by MassAnarchy (01/06/11 06:39 PM)

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#431451 - 02/05/11 03:14 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: MassAnarchy]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
understood that it's "possible"...but I think the saying is misinterpreted when taken literally instead of philosophically. "One punch, one kill" is a state of mind, not a literal.

The phase comes from the samurai philosophy of commitment and intention of each attack. It was was a phrase later borrowed by Karate promoters (circa 1930's) to instill equal commitment.

Bottom line is, if someone is advertising/selling/promoting a way to kill with one strike: walk away. but if someone is warning a strike 'could' cause death in the right circumstances, then listen to them and use your judgment.

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#431465 - 02/08/11 10:41 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: MassAnarchy]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Massdanarchy wrote - However, most practioners of martial arts are useless. I have met many Shodans and Nidans etc. and maybe 1 out of a 100 can actually have a hope of winning in a proper fight. Because in the end, its the mentality of the person and their personal training which makes them effective. Its the artist that makes the art not the technique he/she knows.

Neko456 - Pending who the opponent is, I don't agree with your statement/opinion. I think we expect too much from these beginers most Shodan and Nidans on average are in better shape then the average couch potatoe or street bum. They know how to use there techiques and are in some kind of reasonable shape their timing and distance is sharpened and have some power I'd give the nod to the Shodan/Nidan or Martial artist in such a battle. Now against a seasoned street thug, or killer (they usualky prey on the weak) heads up I'd still give the odds to the martial artist, caught by surpirese the egde slips to the one that catches the other by surprised.

Now against a Pro contact fighter the average Martial artist would be at a disdvanatge intensity and training different.

Overall our training has taken us from the jaws of demises to survival. You just have to know your limitation.

One punch/shot;one kill is a Samuria or Sniper creed. In h2h its possible but not probable. Not something to bank on. Think combinations. Even snipers miss sometimes.


Edited by Neko456 (02/08/11 10:42 AM)
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#431467 - 02/08/11 12:27 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Neko456]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
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Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
As a KnockDown KarateKa, I don't believe that the One Punch One Kill exists, Boxers who are proven to hit harder than most Karateka are unable to "kill" their opponent although the luckily get a Shot to the Jaw that puts their opponent down.

Now I've been hit hard and fast by many a senior Karateka and yes I've had my ribs broke but I can't see it happening.

Todays karateka tend to put too much emphasis on pulling back their punch to even warrant a killer blow.

Now if someone trains daily with a specified punch over and over and over again then there is a possibilty but not in my lifetime I don't think, unless its Frank Dux or someone similar
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#431838 - 03/29/11 01:01 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Dobbersky]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
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EPIC Zombie thread!!!!! BRAINS!!!!!
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#431839 - 03/29/11 01:37 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: BrianS]
Matakiant Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Zombies? Ohh I'm there because I'm a necrop...........

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