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#249954 - 04/30/06 11:33 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: GuitarNinja]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
GuitarNinja,
you realize of course that none of these people actually trained in a karate school to do that, so it doesn't count. If you train for it, you can't do it.

"I do believe in ghosts,... I do... I do... I do believe in ghosts" (Cowardly lion in "The Wizard of Oz")

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#249955 - 04/30/06 05:00 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

You might find this thought interesting. One of my friends/ students is Chinese. He has an interesting thought on the derivation of one strike killing based on the very poor diets of China's masses in the past. His thought is some struck with enough force who was in a near starvation diet because of being poor, might have been a contributing factor to the origins of the concept.

Or equally somebody who had some unknown alilment might have their condition agravated by a powerful strike.

Of course my doctor simply says get real. Who kills people and can demonstratably do so with a strike every time.

Yes happenstance might strike the chest when the heart is at the top of the 'T' wave and make it stop beating. It does occur, but as regrettable accident, not by design, for who can know when it's the right 1/50,000th of a second.

On the other hand, one strike that can reasonably KO or truly daze an opponent, or one strike that can drive someone down to the ground, and the knowledge how to set it up for such a strike to work, gives a situation where you might then do almost anything to such an incapaciated person, sort of one strike as good as a 'kill'.

But if I had to I'd rather blow out their knee just letting them try crawling after me than take the time to injure my hands...... theoretically speaking of course.

It's funny though how many want to cling on killing and karate.

BTW my father was a butcher and he could kill bulls with one finger 100% of the time, a finger on a 22..

And I've see the Oyama films, long ago. Don't recall much, but I understand bulls and even if tied you can hit them hard enough to put them down..... god bless one getting in the way of that strike.
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#249956 - 04/30/06 05:47 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

It's funny though how many want to cling on killing and karate.




Victor, I don't think its a matter of "killing and karate", it's more a discussion of whether karate can do what it's advertised to do through traditional teaching. I think that GuitarNinja more than proved that people can be decimated by one punch, even untrained, so it's a bit more rational to think that it's not only possible, but likely, that a trained person could effect the same thing.

For whatever reasons, we study pressure points attacking nerve centers that directly affect various organs in the body, points that cause disruption of the artery system, and then turn around and argue that our art and science can't do what we're teaching people to do in the bunkai and kata of karate.

The art of karate has built-in overkill in almost all it's techniques, with repeated follow ups and additional punches and kicks in almost every arena of kata and waza. I just think it's a little high-handed to tell the students that "all this stuff works"...and in a later time, tell them "not quite like we said". It either works as advertised, or it doesn't.

Personally, it's a goal, not a "description"... but I hit hard enough that it's not enjoyable for them... as do most of us.



Edited by wristtwister (04/30/06 05:51 PM)
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#249957 - 04/30/06 06:54 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
The 'sick or starving' bull theory is kindof what I was getting at with the Oyama story...more than meets the bullseye. plus, haven't people already been taught this lesson? remember reading the stories of Matsumura 'conditioning' the bull prior to him facing it? with Oyama, it was kindof the same deal except it was the people he conditioned to believing what they saw.

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#249958 - 04/30/06 09:07 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: wristtwister]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Wrist.... But I think a more interesting question is who really advertises that karate can kill with one blow. In my short 33 years training with many people I've never seen an instructor, or school, or heard of one making such claims.

Yes I've read the historical concept, and discussions that instructors in some styles in Japan for example claim thats the power to be working towards.

But really it only seems like yak, just like the purpose of trianing is to make one a warrior. More yak.

I've had instructors that were trained in the Marines but never used such claims, and instructors who can break you but still never made such claims.

In fact the most powerful instructor I trained under went extremely out of his way to reinforce that those 'kill' concepts have absolutely nothing, ever to do with real karate training.

So where's the real beef?
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#249959 - 04/30/06 10:02 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
the real beef is in taking it with a pinch of salt and a heap of mashed potatoes on the side... if people want to add gravy, whos to fault them?

its just a figure of speech used to describe intent - making each shot count I thought is the basis of kata study.

end the threat as quickly as possible.
make each shot count.
no thought, single objective.

whatevah is your flavah of gravy, baby.

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#249960 - 04/30/06 11:17 PM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Quote:

its just a figure of speech used to describe intent - making each shot count I thought is the basis of kata study.

end the threat as quickly as possible.
make each shot count.
no thought, single objective.

whatevah is your flavah of gravy, baby.




Well said, as I said before, I would never doubt it or believe it, just that I have never seen it. Like people from MO, "show me" but if it worked I would be dead so what would I have gained? Train to be the best that you can, I hope we all can agree on this.
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#249961 - 05/01/06 02:57 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Victor Smith]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

You might find this thought interesting. One of my friends/ students is Chinese. He has an interesting thought on the derivation of one strike killing based on the very poor diets of China's masses in the past. His thought is some struck with enough force who was in a near starvation diet because of being poor, might have been a contributing factor to the origins of the concept.





A simular explenation is found in the book from Eiichi Miyazato (Okinawa den goju ryu karate do).
"In the South of China, malaria was widespread and many people became sick with the disease. Because of the nature of the illness, a strike to the abdominal region was fatal, and for this and other reasons, this area became a target in Southern kenpo.
The lifestyle environment is reflected in the different kenpo styles."

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#249962 - 05/01/06 06:52 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
Forest_Tiger Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 2
I have to agree with Mr Morris.

I was trying to find the reference to this in one of Funakoshi's books but I couldn't. I was sure it stated that each strike should be made with the feeling or spirit of ending the fight with that blow.. i.e. each strike is made with full commitment and power with the aim of ending the fight, as opposed to throwing jabbing combo's etc, trying to wear down an adversary.

I think this is a perfect example of how perfectly good traditional concepts are disregarded as junk because they are given no more than a superficial glance.

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#249963 - 05/01/06 07:31 AM Re: One punch,one kill [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Personally, it's a goal, not a "description"...



Quote:

its just a figure of speech used to describe intent - making each shot count I thought is the basis of kata study.




I think, for once, we agree

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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