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#249292 - 04/27/06 10:55 AM "Okinawan" kata in some form?
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Good Morning:

Many Okinawan karate kata have been transported across the globe in many different forms, emphasis and "flavors". Whether those movement patterns have been kept intact or have been mutated beyond recognition... or something between the two is always an interesting question. If, if the art you practice either acknowledges an Okinawan influence, or has a direct time-line to "Okinawan relatives" (ie Okinawan Kata) somewhere in the recent past... does your practice maintain any of the following Okinawan kata in some variation/form?

Seisan aka Hangetsu
Seiuchin aka Tekki
Chinto
Sanchin (A "breathing" form)
Tensho (A different "breathing" form)


If you DO possess any of these forms, what are they called??? (Note: I am truly interested in direct Okinawan arts to Korean direct transfers. But acknowledge transfers from the Japanese variations of the original Okinawan kata are likely more common. As such massively problematic re: WW2 and 5 decades since many initial exposures) Several hopefully connected question. My apologies for not being more concise...

Jeff

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#249293 - 04/27/06 11:12 AM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: Ronin1966]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
You came to a korean forum using japanese words. Probably best if you were to use english terms instead.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#249294 - 04/27/06 11:35 AM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: Ronin1966]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
http://www.jenningscc.com/TaeKwonDo/PalgweToTaeGuekSwitch.htm
Quote:

Those studying what Korean Tae Kwon Do stylists call the "Pyong-An" patterns, will either be intrigued or alarmed to discover that they are exactly the same patterns practiced in Shotokan karate. In Japanese they are called "Heian". Tae Kwon Do black belts who, as part of their traditional curriculum, studied patterns called Bal-Sek, Chul-Gi, or Kong-San-Koon would do well to know that these patterns are also traditional Shotokan forms with the Japanese names Bassai, Tekki, and Kanku, respectfully. Even the WTF-recognized Palgwe patterns have Japanese origins. If you examine the Pyong-An (Heian) forms, you will see many of the movement sequences are copied directly into the Palgwe patterns.




Check here for TKD forms:
http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#249295 - 04/27/06 10:46 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: Ronin1966]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Ronin,
I wouldn't say the entire form would appear the same,but you can see many of the similar movements within forms.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#249296 - 04/28/06 03:45 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: BrianS]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello BrianS:

Of the quicklist I gave (assuming variations via cultural transfer & time factors)


Seisan aka Hangetsu
Seiuchin aka Tekki
Chinto
Sanchin (A "breathing" form)
Tensho (A different "breathing" form)


Which do you/your art possess? In Korean what are their names?

Jeff

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#249297 - 04/28/06 03:53 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: JoelM]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Joel:

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately, though extensive the only way to determine if the Korean name has any bearing to the Japanese (originally Okinawan kata) seems by watching each and every one I'll have to hope the five I'm after "trensferred" by somebody...

Any chance you know of specific breathing forms done in Goju similar/parallel fasion???

J

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#249298 - 04/28/06 04:30 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: Ronin1966]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Unfortunately no, Jeff.

Although I am 99% sure that the ones you are looking for, if they are on that site, would be in the leftmost column under the Tangsoodo/Taekwondo title.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#249299 - 04/28/06 06:45 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: TeK9]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Tek:

I appreciate the thought, thank you. I use English at every opportunity and feel fairly strongly there runs a serious danger of either cyclical references (ie the Yin/Yang phenomina) and/or using deliberately foreign terminology to obfiscate.

However given my/the header I believe at least am on safe ground in this particular instance... Kata in the generic martial context seems a term embedded in American ~martial culture~ today. Am I genuinely speaking some truly ~alien language~ with that particular term, even here in the forum of our ~Korean airborne Brethern~ (generic)?

Kata (sic. badly translated) might in English be "form"? Similar to an outside observer to the Korean Hyung, Poomose(s), etc. in many gross ways. Merely kata being a term indiginous specific to the Japanese-Okinawan heritage arts.

Jeff

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#249300 - 04/28/06 08:21 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: Ronin1966]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I mean no offense by this. It is no secret that I have something close to disdain for the sport(yes thats correct) of Tae Kwon Do. I feel that it is a weakend, watered down version of Japanese Karate which is a weakend, watered down version of Okinawan Karate.

I have very close friends that are strong advocates of TKD and even with them I have never been impressed by form or function.

I will say that I have not seen all TKD so before I get slammed, I do realize that there must be something there of value(sporting, not martial) that makes it very popular. I only report what I have observed.

Also I will say that I do appreciate the overall athleticism of TKD. TKD practioners very generally are quick, in shape and able to some very impressive acrobatics. No doubt that it takes skill, concentration and dedication. I just don't see its martial aspects, especially where grasping the fundamentals of Okinawan kata application.

What prompted me to stop here was the question about some Okinawan kata.

Of the kata that you mentioned, I practice Seisan and Chinto. These are Okinawan versions (Matsumura Seito in particular) that I have found to have very little similarity to Jspsnese versions. I can only imagine what they would look like from the TKD perspective.

Having said that, If you are not pi$$ed off, I would gladly answer questions you have.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#249301 - 04/29/06 01:20 PM Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? [Re: BuDoc]
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Grab a Tang So Doo school and look at their forms

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