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#248710 - 04/25/06 02:19 AM Gracie vs. Hughes (spoiler now included)
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
It's coming up soon! Both have had some pretty harsh words for eachother.

I think Gracie will win by submission and hopefully Hughes will gain a little humility.

What is your take on this?

I used to not like Gracie or grappling altogether for that matter. His earlier matches in the ufc made him seem arrogant,but that was before I started groundfighting myself. He is now my hero!


Edited by Cord (05/28/06 03:30 AM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#248711 - 04/25/06 07:44 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I look at it this way; What are they’re strengths? Hughes is clearly stronger and has better wrestling and some stand-up (compared to Royce). Royce has what??? Jiu-Jitsu? EVERYONE has jiu-jitsu nowadays! Matt HUGHES has jiu-jitsu!

I CAN tell you this much, Hughes’s will get the takedown. I don’t think anyone is really doubting that much. Royce will probably not contest the takedown much so that he can pull guard. I doubt very seriously that he’ll shoot or try and clinch with Hughes.

So I see this fight being a guard battle. And that’s really nothing new to Hughes. Hughes will do nothing but train with a lot of jiu-jitsu guys for this fight. When he gets in the ring with Gracie, it will be nothing unfamiliar to him (not that it would be anyway, because he sees guard play all the time).

The question is, will Royce be wearing the gi jacket or not? I haven’t heard. Perhaps no one will know until fight time. So what’s that do for Hughes’s preparation? He’ll probably train against a guy wearing a jacket and then standard no-gi to mix it up (because if I’m correct, Royce fought without a jacket once recently?).

Either way, I really do not see this fight being much of a problem for him. Maybe if I’d just seen Gracie a little more than I have in recent years against fighters of worth I’d feel differently. We’ll have to wait and see if there will be any “special rules” for this fight…..

I like Royce. He even quasi promoted me (telling me several years ago to “go get yourself a blue belt”). And I like Matt Hughes. I don’t think he is nearly as arrogant as people think he is. I’ll watch this and won’t know whom to root for.


-John

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#248712 - 04/25/06 08:16 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
whilst I only have a spectators view point on such things, i do think that the advantage Gracie had in his hayday was based on BJJ/Grappling being an unknown quantity to the wider fighting community.

Hughes has youth, strength, striking, clinch, wrestling as advantages, and has shown himself to be great on the ground as well .

I think Gracie will play a spoiling game and hope for break in Hughes's concentration or fatigue to set in.

either way, he will be doing the grappling equivalent of looking for a lucky punch IMO.

Then again, what do I know? the last grappling I did was with a footlong double meat chicken teriaki from Subway
_________________________
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#248713 - 04/25/06 08:26 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Cord]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Then again, what do I know? the last grappling I did was with a footlong double meat chicken teriaki from Subway






SUB mission.

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#248714 - 04/25/06 08:40 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: oldman]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I've noted that Spike TV is currently showing a lot of Royce Gracie's old UFC fights. Presumably to justify and hype the up-coming fight with Matt Hughes.

The problem is, that every contest they've shown shows that the opponents have next to no knowledge of the ground game. It's a very different scenario now. All the top fighters are used to being on the ground and dealing with fighting there.

MH has youth on his side and my money's on him.

I'm kinda sad that the fight is taking place. I'd like to remember RG for what he did in his prime, changing the face of Martial Arts as it was known. Kind of like Ali in his prime.

Mind you, he's always been one tough guy and maybe he'll suprise everyone.
_________________________
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#248715 - 04/25/06 09:21 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JohnL]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Much respect for Gracie, he has earned it over and over. Hughes, I don't like his attitude since seeing the Ultimate Fighter 2 series, but he has earned his place and the title and he is good. Old vs. New. 100% that I do know, this is a money grabber for the UFC, plain and simple.

I see Gracie pulling guard after Hughes takes him down. Gracie will try to work things and creeping his legs up or looking for an arm bar from the bottom or something like this. Hughes will use a lot of strength and I believe he will pick him up and crash him to the matt repeatedly through the match. I think it will go two rounds and Hughes will come out the victor. Gracie will get his well deserved applause and Gracie will give props to Hughes and talk about he was the past and Hughes is the future and he wishes Hughes well. Hughes in his speech will give props to Gracie ... and everybody will be friends.

When it is all said and done, I have a hard time seeing the UFC putting up somebody that get beat Hughes at this time, though they would make oodles amount of money either way. When it is all said and done, St. Pierre deserves his title shot and should have had his opportunity already with Hughes ... but money got in the way for the UFC and Gracie was a better draw. IMO
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#248716 - 04/25/06 09:31 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
John,
I kind of figured you'd be rooting for the old guy.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#248717 - 04/25/06 10:15 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: oldman]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

Then again, what do I know? the last grappling I did was with a footlong double meat chicken teriaki from Subway






SUB mission.




Genius! Thanks Oldman, you have just given me my new sinature line
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#248718 - 04/25/06 10:23 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BrianS]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Anything can happen, as we saw from some of the last fights but I hope Gracie wins by submission. Did you hear how much money he is getting???!!!
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#248719 - 04/25/06 10:26 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
To me it seems Royce has nothing to lose by fighting Huges. I would imagine that most MMA folks when thinking of Royce consider him to be history. I don't mean that in a condescending way but that the game has moved on. The most compelling aspect of gracie story is smaller/weaker/and now older, practioner can be victorious. Certainly anything could happen. If Royce loses he still has his place in MMA history which nothing is going to touch. If he happens to win, he reinvigorate the Gracie brand inspireing a new crop of middle aged grapplers interested in BJJ. Again I don't mean this to sound condescending at all, perhaps pragmatic.

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#248720 - 04/25/06 10:51 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JohnL]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Quote:

I'm kinda sad that the fight is taking place. I'd like to remember RG for what he did in his prime, changing the face of Martial Arts as it was known. Kind of like Ali in his prime.




Yes, I feel this too :-(
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#248721 - 04/25/06 11:08 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: oldman]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I've seen many of Royce's fights; will the fact that he will not be wearing a judo gi become an issue? In all of his fights he was very dependant on his lapels and sleeves, Matt Hughes on the other hand is just phenomenal. This is a fight I'm dying to see, unfortunately someone will lose.

I agree with you oldman, that Royce has nothing to lose; he will always be considered a legend. But it's never great to see legends lose.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#248722 - 04/25/06 02:26 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: TeK9]
EL_MARIACHI Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 22
Loc: ILLINOIS
Hopefully, Royce has expanded his arsenal since the last time he was in the UFC. Royce was and is a great fighter, so is Ken Shamrock and look what happen to him when he fought Tito Ortiz. Anyway UFC is going to make lots of money if they keep on booking new school vs. old school matches.
_________________________
"What we do in LIFE echoes in ETERNITY"

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#248723 - 04/25/06 02:53 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: EL_MARIACHI]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I don't think its a question of whether he has expanded his aresenal, I'm sure all the techniques common to the UFC are already in Gracie jujutsu, however, my question is whether he has had enough time to practice without using his judo gi. Matt has had so many matches and practices w/o using a gi.


You know who I would really like to see in the UFC...Mike Tyson, I think with his style of boxing and with a few grappling skills he could be a great UFC fighter.

I mean he's already used the basic elbow shots and arm lock durring his boxing days. I'm sure he could easily switch over in sports.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#248724 - 04/25/06 03:59 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: TeK9]
EL_MARIACHI Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 22
Loc: ILLINOIS
Its gonna be a geat fight, kinda like a Gracie vs. Shamrock for 2006. Gracie has nothing to lose. I'm not as familiar with Matt Hughes' career, has faced anyone similar to Royce Gracie?
_________________________
"What we do in LIFE echoes in ETERNITY"

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#248725 - 04/25/06 04:26 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: EL_MARIACHI]
GuitarNinja Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
This is going to be a good one, definately the last ppv I order, I still have to pay for the last 2

Honestly, I think Gracie has this, he is stronger than people think he is.. not as strong as matt but who is besides the heavies ? Huges had a hard time with pierre until pierre got caught with the armbar off the kimura, pierre has stated he LET him get it because he thought the clock would run out before it was sank in.. he apparently underestimated his strength to pull his arm into full lock.

Anyhow, gracie is a BJJ monster... he and matt have the same attributes both intense workaholics with probaly the best knowledge of the game between the two. I would imagine gracie would spend a great deal of time rolling with bigger an stronger guys than matt who are better on the ground. Id even go as far to say he might bring in some top wrestlers.

He has to worry more about his brute strength and getting slammed into tommorow and the striking game, gracie sucks at striking but he should realize this and work on it ALOT for this fight, they both know this is the big one. Regardless of who wins its going to be awesome, two of the best champions of the UFC demanding each others respect.

Gracie wins in 2 by submission, or matt wins in 1 by knockout.. probaly a slam because you know gracie will pull guard.

EDIT: This is actually a good tester IMO, world class wrestler vs world class bjj.. wrestlers rely on alot of strength and BJJ on sensitivity. According to many TMA ie: wing chun, tai chi, aikido, jj, etc.. etc.. strength can be overcomed by sensitivity. Who knows, just my thoughts.


Edited by GuitarNinja (04/25/06 04:31 PM)
_________________________
Mastery is in the practice itself.

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#248726 - 04/25/06 05:27 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: GuitarNinja]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I've been watching those old fights this week. Man I gotta say that Royce had some difficulty even beating some of those Tomato Cans from yester-year!

His takedowns looked like garbage and his ground game against guys unfamiliar with the ground looked like garbage as well. I mean, compared to what we know NOW....his skill was really lacking.

And that's saying something when you talk about the Gracie's.

God FORBID if he hasn't improved in some ways now because if NOT, Hughes is going to spank him HARD!

The thing about Gracie is, he's the most NON athletic looking guy I've seen competing in this stuff. I guess if HE can do it, anyone can.

And I LIKE the guy!


-John

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#248727 - 04/25/06 05:45 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: TeK9]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

You know who I would really like to see in the UFC...Mike Tyson, I think with his style of boxing and with a few grappling skills he could be a great UFC fighter.





The closest Tyson ever got to MA was considering a big money contract with K1 in Japan, but I think having seen how Botha faired in the transition, he decided against it.

He is a 39 year old, chain smoking, hard drinking guy who has not been in competetive shape, nor mentaly composed for well over a decade, and he has sensibly retired from competition, and if he did come back, it would be to what he knew, not to a lesser paid unfamiliar sport where he stood a greater chance of losing.

Gracie is to BJJ what the English are to soccer- just because you are responsible for introducing something to the world at large, does not by default make you the best at it. Things move on.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#248728 - 04/25/06 06:38 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Cord]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Listen it is not like Royce hasn't been beaten before. Wallid Ismail choked him out in a pure jiu jitsu tournament. Sakuraba beat on Royce in Pride to the point that Gracie's corner threw in the towel.

Of course Hughes has been beaten before too. but I'm going with Matt. He reminds me of my old wrestling coach.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#248729 - 04/26/06 12:59 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: GuitarNinja]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
It's not a matter of who is demanding respect, its obvious from the face to face interviews that each of them have it for one another. Matt is looking at the face of an icon/revolutionary. Gracie, definatly konws he is starring into the face of probably the UFC's greatest athlete/competitor.

Hughes definatly has more power, will probably shoot and try to slam Gracie. However, Gracie being the spider man that he is has the skill to keep that from happening, but who knows how well his grip will be since he wont have his trustee judo gi to help him.

Looking back on Gracie fights, he has terrible ground and pound, he relied on heel kicks to the opponents ribs.

The ground and pound I think is something that has really just been discovered, almost like a glitch button in a video game. And everyone uses it, even if they arn't good with it.

I think the reason why Gracies ground work in the old days didn't look so good was because it was more of a revolutioized martial arts type of approach. Now the sport has grown so much, that the techniques he used have been refined and are now common.

Wouldn't it be INSANE if Royce worked on his stand up game, and just rocked Matt Hughes a couple of times. That would be a serious surprise.

I only hop that when Royce pulls gaurd, that the ref will break it up and stand them up again. The rematch between Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie was 35 long minutes of pure Bu/L $hi+. It was like torteses mating... It could have been shown on animal planet.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#248730 - 04/26/06 03:09 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: TeK9]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
I'ts really funny how people are judging Royce from his early UFC fights. Anybody been watching him lately? Yeh its been some 15 years since then.. he was on top then, and he has only had 15 years more training himself. Hughes technique doesn't even begin to compare to Royce's.

Unless he is unfortunate, I give this fight to Royce.

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#248731 - 04/26/06 07:17 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I'ts really funny how people are judging Royce from his early UFC fights. Anybody been watching him lately? Yeh its been some 15 years since then.. he was on top then, and he has only had 15 years more training himself. Hughes technique doesn't even begin to compare to Royce's.





And HUGHES has had years of experience fighting upper shelf oppponents.

Who has Gracie fight??

You really also think that Hughes doesn't have technique?

He wins by submission frequently.



-John


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#248732 - 04/26/06 11:27 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
1neikoot Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Candy Land
I think Hughes and Gracie will lose as well.

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#248733 - 04/28/06 03:06 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
Lol, who are these upper shelf opponents? Guys from the UFC? Japan is where you will find these 'upper shelf' opponents. Japan is where Royce has been fighing and constantly winning.

Who has Royce fort? Are YOU serious?

Yeh hughes wins by submission frequently.. true. But his technique is far from gracies. A dodgey kimuru from half guard is far from good. And IMO I'ts really really easy to submit people who know about as much jiu jitsu as they know what the back of their head looks like. Especially if you are strong... Hughes is strong!

Gracie all the way.

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#248734 - 04/28/06 07:49 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JamesLightningBolton]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Lol, who are these upper shelf opponents? Guys from the UFC? Japan is where you will find these 'upper shelf' opponents. Japan is where Royce has been fighing and constantly winning.




Not against anyone of "worth".


Quote:

Who has Royce fort? Are YOU serious?




I couldn't tell you, but I'm sure they weren't pleased. Is forting on an opponent even ALLOWED in these events? If it is, I'm going to be forting when I have the mounted position on people.

Now as far as Gracie is concerned, a quick look on Sherdog.com will reveal that his opponents as of late have not exactly been the "Upper Shelf" as it goes within MMA.
If you don't believe me, look for the top ten rankings and see where those opponents fall....



Quote:


Yeh hughes wins by submission frequently.. true. But his technique is far from gracies.




His technique could in fact be BETTER compared to Royce Gracies. Isn't Gracie a "Gracie"?

Saying the Hughes technique doesn't match the Gracie's is mere bias. Any discerning fight fan will clearly see that Hughes technique has been phenominal! To admit otherwise is to admit that you're possibly a personal student/friend of Royce's.

Hughes has submitted todays MMA fighters. That alone is telling, because it's hard to do (considering that EVERYONE studies Gracie/Brazilian jiu-jitsu these days).

Royce was the past. He is NOT the future of MMA.

Quote:


A dodgey kimuru from half guard is far from good.




"Dodgey"???

It worked, right? Didn't it tap a guy out who is KNOWN for his "strength"? Isn't that what it is supposed to do??

If they answer to those questions is yes, in any way - it's FAR from "dodgey".

Lets see Royce do a "KIMURA" to Diesel Riggs. He'll not get the chance because after Hughes beats him, he'll probably not return to the Octogon.

Quote:


And IMO I'ts really really easy to submit people who know about as much jiu jitsu as they know what the back of their head looks like. Especially if you are strong... Hughes is strong!




So you think that today's MMA fighters are NOT all training jiu-jitsu and haven't been? Do you honestly believe that it's not being done?

Let me answer that for you....

EVERY FIGHTER in the UFC, Pride or anywhere ELSE is and has been training in jiu-jitsu, if they are fighting at a high level venue

That's simply because you HAVE TO if you want to compete in any way with the other fighters.


Quote:


Gracie all the way.




Yes, Go Royce. I would like to see him win as well.



-John

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#248735 - 04/28/06 11:53 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
If I was a betting man...Oh wait I am a betting man. I love watching and wagering on the UFC fights. I lost my A$$ on the last Liddel/couture fight! I made the classic mistake of betting with my heart not my head.

I have met several Gracies. Royce included. I have had a few opportunities to train with several of them. My girlfriend trains with Gracies. Very knowlegable and extremely talented, and warm and friendly to boot.

Matt Hughes is young and strong and very talented in all phases of fighting. Also he strikes me as a bit of a [censored]!

I really want to bet with my heart! I'm really struggling. But I will bet with my head on this one!

My money is on Matt Hughes. I really hope Royce wins. And it won't bother me to lose the cash if he does, but I just can't see it.

Football(American/NFL) fans in South Florida love to talk about the 1972 Miami Dolphins and the only undefeated season ever, culminating in a Super Bowl victory. Truly a great and glorius team that will go down in history and hold a benchmark that all teams will aspir to.

They can not however beat even the worst NFL by todays standard.

Time marches on. This in no way diminishes the mark made by our past heroes. They will be legendary for all time.

I think the world of the accomplishments of Royce and the Gracies. A couple young guys I train think that BJ Penn is the be all end all.

In 30 years their accomplishments as pioneers will still be recognized, but the game will have evolved and all the kids will realize that a new champion has evolved with it. Perhaps that champion will be DaDon1!

Page


Edited by BuDoc (04/28/06 02:38 PM)
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#248736 - 04/28/06 12:18 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BuDoc]
GuitarNinja Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
While the new fighters have evolved since MMA first hit the mainstream, dont you think Gracie has evolved as well ? They are obviously well educated martial artists who realize things change, they train with people who train with people, they all watch the fights, lots of them still do fight... the principles that guided their techniques 10 years ago are no different today.

The more I think about it, the more I think hughes will win though, budoc makes a great point... hughes has beaten the better fighters compared to gracie. Not just in the gym going 40%, in the ring going 200%, anyone can beat anyone in the gym, IMVHO this cant happen in real fights, I believe alot less luck is involved in this type of fighting than alot of people believe. Matt does have awesome technique along with enourmous strength, the dudes neck is as big as my waist... that scares me.
_________________________
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#248737 - 04/28/06 12:47 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BuDoc]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

My fiance'





For all Y'ALL that were not paying attenion.

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#248738 - 04/28/06 01:12 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: oldman]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I seen it ... I just thought perhaps he told us before I had forgot. Congrads Page.
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#248739 - 04/28/06 02:04 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: oldman]
BuDoc Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Oh. $hi+!! Here we go!

Thanks for pointing that out "Buddy"

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#248740 - 04/28/06 02:06 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BuDoc]
oldman Offline
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Posts: 5884
My work here is done.

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#248741 - 04/28/06 02:35 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: GuitarNinja]
BuDoc Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I'm sure that Royce has evolved as well. his stand up game may be far beetter than anyone expects. I hope it is true.

The reality is that Royce was a Jiu-jitsu ka, then a fighter, then an author,businessman,and seminar host, and now a fighter again. Alot has changed about the game since he was on the periphery.

Matt Hughes, by my limited understanding, has always been and continues to be a fighter.

Again, Royce is my hero. I want desperately for heart to win over all(I'm a hopeless romantic), but the reality is known when looking at the plus/minus column.

When talking trash with boys at the bar, I'd give you a hundred reasons why Royce will win that fight. That's the heart talkin'.

When I step up to the window and it's time to lay down the Cheddar, the head says Hughes.

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#248742 - 04/28/06 03:43 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BuDoc]
JKogas Offline
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Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
The thing about Royce is, he is really limited athletically. LOOK at him, then look at Hughes....

Royce has NEVER had good stand-up because he just doesn't have the athleticism for it. That's why his clinch and ground skills looked shakey to me (I have rolled with Royce whole wearing a gi and he knows his game there). Matt Hughes will NOT be wearing a gi however.

Matt has SEEN armbars from the guard. He's seen triangles. He's seen sweeps. There is no magical difference between the way that Royce does them and everyone else. Their "secrets" have been out for a long time.

At THIS level, it all comes down to who is better able to impose their own games, not who is able to "catch" the other with something that he's never seen before.

Look at those two and see who you think will be better able to impose his game.

-John

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#248743 - 04/28/06 05:02 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
GuitarNinja Offline
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Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
I pretty much agree, its just im SOO hopeful gracie wins, cause it still means better technique at something can still beat a bigger, stronger, faster opponent who isnt as good.

When it comes down to it, will hughes try to win by submission just to say "I tapped out royce" or just beat his face in repeatedly ? Is his trademark slam going to play a roll ? I definately think so, I feel when royce tries to go to the ground matt will slam him for a good KO or stun, then finish the job with strikes.

Im so anxious about this fight I cant make up my mind on anything!!!
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#248744 - 04/28/06 05:19 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: GuitarNinja]
JKogas Offline
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Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
GuitarNinja wrote:
Quote:

I pretty much agree, its just im SOO hopeful gracie wins, cause it still means better technique at something can still beat a bigger, stronger, faster opponent who isnt as good.





I know what you’re saying. But that’s just it….Hughes is “just as good”. That’s what I’ve basically been saying. In these days, the majority of the major league MMA guys have all the right skills. The winner is determined by who is better able to impose his game on his opponent.

When everything is equal, the body is the determining factor (size, strength, conditioning, etc). I truly believe that in terms of fighting skill, Hughes is every bit as good (if not much better) than Royce Gracie. My thing is, Gracie’s technique isn’t really all that impressive (to me). Hughes impresses me every time OUT.

And it’s NOT because of his strength either. Sure the guy is strong, but so was Riggs (his last opponent who in fact, may have even been stronger). Hughes isn’t WINNING with his strength so much as he is with technique.

IMO, “better technique” is still going to win out over strength in most cases. When you’re that much better skill wise than your opponent, it does mean a lot!


Quote:


When it comes down to it, will Hughes try to win by submission just to say "I tapped out royce" or just beat his face in repeatedly ? Is his trademark slam going to play a roll ? I definately think so, I feel when royce tries to go to the ground matt will slam him for a good KO or stun, then finish the job with strikes.

Im so anxious about this fight I cant make up my mind on anything!!!





Well, while I think that Royce isn’t the greatest athlete in the game, the guy IS smart. I don’t think he’s going to do anything to put himself in a bad position where a slam or what-have-you might be possible. That’s the thing about Royce, he uses his BRAIN. Of course, so does Hughes who is ALSO an intelligent fighter.

I don’t know if Hughes will be able to win with strikes though. Royce’s ground defense is pretty good. And I don’t know if Hughes will be able to get a submission for the same reason. I think Hughes will win by decision, not submission.


Who knows…


-John

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#248745 - 04/28/06 10:25 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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When's the fight?
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#248746 - 04/28/06 10:43 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
In MAY I believe...


UFC


-John

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#248747 - 04/28/06 11:27 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
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May 27th.....
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#248748 - 04/29/06 02:02 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
SEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
This will be a difficult fight for ol'Royce. For one thing, he's not fighting under "his" rules. He'll be fighting with no gi (usually fights with a gi), UFC 5 minute rounds (usually urges for longer rounds or, like his match with sakuraba, no rounds at all), and there will be judges (this is perhaps the biggest concern of all "his" rules, that the fight not be decided by judges).

Having said all that, I could see Gracie submitting Matt from his guard. His stand-up is suspect and he certainly doesn't have a chin like Cro Cop or Fedor. If he were facing George St. Pierre, I'd feel more nervous for Royce.

But Matt is no slouch! He's gonna take it to Royce and hand him his first real loss in the UFC...via GnP.

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#248749 - 04/29/06 06:13 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: SEAL]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Quote:

UFC 5 minute rounds




Royce's odds are looking slimmer and slimmer as this thread goes on. Does Royce need his opponent to be wearing a GI to be able to pull guard? Cause I remember JKogas pointed out that his takedowns aint too good...maybe it won't even go to the ground?
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#248750 - 04/29/06 09:12 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
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Loc: North Carolina
SEAL wrote:
Quote:

….Having said all that, I could see Gracie submitting Matt from his guard. His stand-up is suspect and he certainly doesn't have a chin like Cro Cop or Fedor. If he were facing George St. Pierre, I'd feel more nervous for Royce.




It could happen. I won’t take anything away from Royce. Matt Hughes though, is just not another average MMA fighter. That’s the problem I’m having with this. Royce should have came in and fought his way up. But he isn’t - he’s fighting the CHAMPION right out of the gate.

Truthfully, Royce probably deserves to fight him now instead of fighting his way up. At some point, LEGEND status has it’s benefits and this is one such case. Besides, he probably won’t be fighting much if at all after this. He’s 39. I sort-of see this as a one last blast type of thing.



Quote:


But Matt is no slouch! He's gonna take it to Royce and hand him his first real loss in the UFC...via GnP.




I think that’s probably a fairly accurate assessment. Don’t know if it’ll be a GnP win, though I do think Royce will get stacked & smacked a bit. Its really hard to call this fight. I see it going to the judges for some reason. That COULD be bad news for…….

Hughes.

Where is the fight being held? SoCal? Royce’s hometown and backyard??? Hmmm….

Can anyone say “Rubber Match”?




MiST wrote:
Quote:


Royce's odds are looking slimmer and slimmer as this thread goes on. Does Royce need his opponent to be wearing a GI to be able to pull guard? Cause I remember JKogas pointed out that his takedowns aint too good...maybe it won't even go to the ground?





It will DEFINITELY go to the ground because that’s where Royce wants it to go. Royce won’t be able to get him there unless he pulls guard. Hughes however may not take him down right away. He may feel him out a bit upstairs first and throw a few leg kicks, etc. Royce will do the same thing.

The BETTER grapplers never just shoot in anymore. They’re better able to TIME their takedowns by setting them up first with punching and kicking. Then when the moment is perfect, BOOM, down the guy goes. Think Couture vs. Belford (in their very first fight) and you’ll see what I mean.

I can’t wait. This should be a good one, from my perspective. It could in fact be boring for many fight fans.


-John

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#248751 - 05/03/06 07:52 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Dereck]
Blindsided Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 217
Quote:

Much respect for Gracie, he has earned it over and over. Hughes, I don't like his attitude since seeing the Ultimate Fighter 2 series, but he has earned his place and the title and he is good. Old vs. New. 100% that I do know, this is a money grabber for the UFC, plain and simple.

I see Gracie pulling guard after Hughes takes him down. Gracie will try to work things and creeping his legs up or looking for an arm bar from the bottom or something like this. Hughes will use a lot of strength and I believe he will pick him up and crash him to the matt repeatedly through the match. I think it will go two rounds and Hughes will come out the victor. Gracie will get his well deserved applause and Gracie will give props to Hughes and talk about he was the past and Hughes is the future and he wishes Hughes well. Hughes in his speech will give props to Gracie ... and everybody will be friends.

When it is all said and done, I have a hard time seeing the UFC putting up somebody that get beat Hughes at this time, though they would make oodles amount of money either way. When it is all said and done, St. Pierre deserves his title shot and should have had his opportunity already with Hughes ... but money got in the way for the UFC and Gracie was a better draw. IMO




Hughes beat Pierre for the title.

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#248752 - 05/03/06 08:39 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Jhkogas,

Hi there, I think you it the nail on the head about Royce not being to athleticaly. Looking back at his fights he doesn't show good stand up at all and I believe that it is because as you said, he is a jujutsuka- jujutsu man and not really a fighter or sportsman.

Coming into the UFC he didn't prove he was the best fighter, he wanted to demonstrate how effective gracie jujutsu is and I believe he did, he showed his dominance on the ground game which is what brazillian jujustu emphasizes.

Just like in his latest book which is on Gracie jujustu and self defense. He states that Gracie jujutsu is not just about ground grappling and sport. It is about demonstrating that just because you have been taken to the ground and are in the bottom postion (gaurd) that you are not helpless, that there is a way out and even a way to turn your situation over to your favor. I believe this is the reason why Royce Gracie participated in the UFC. Ofcourse this is way before the Ground and Pound trend came.

Matt Hughes on the other hand is built for this sport, weight lifts and trains wrestling, stand up and jujutsu.

If I had to say out of the Gracies which one was born and bread for competition I would probablu pick Rickson Gracie, that guy was the $hi+.
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#248753 - 05/03/06 10:17 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
There won't be one loser. There will be thousands who proffered their opinions... fortunately, I only bet on thoroughbred racing.

If George Foreman can do it as a boxer, why can't Gracie?

The idea is right about old and new school. You can see the evolution just by looking at who the top flight fighters were and what they did to contribute to the development of MA in general.

Here in Australia, Danny Green vs Anthony Mundine is even more exciting and partsian.
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#248754 - 05/03/06 11:26 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Mark Hill]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

If George Foreman can do it as a boxer, why can't Gracie?




Because the UFC is not boxing.
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#248755 - 05/04/06 12:39 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JoelM]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Maybe UFC but Randy Couture is still doing his thing at this age.

And George and Randy were about the same age.
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does not surpass his
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#248756 - 05/04/06 12:42 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JoelM]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
That's not a reason at all!

Highly conditioned athletes competing in a martial sport - different objectives...

From the criticisms of Gracie's chances John Kogas gave, stand up is harder for the semi-retired - so by that reasoning, Foreman should have got whupped.
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#248757 - 05/04/06 12:59 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Mark Hill]
TylerW Offline
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Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 76
Loc: washington state
Randy Couture retired though.

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#248758 - 05/04/06 04:39 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: TylerW]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Recently, but he was same age when Foreman became champ in boxing. I think one year less maybe.

Point is if Foreman can come back and be heavy weight champ, then so can Gracie; he can be UFC champ and this time actually fight guys in his own weight. Has anyone taken that into consideration? Gracie was fighting guys 50 pounds heavier than he was. Sometimes fighting 4 opponents in 1 day. You cannot dimiss this.

I think we all agree though that it sucks that any one of these 2 spectacular athlete/martial artist is probably going to lose. Am I the only one on this forum that is hoping for a spectacular fight with the ending of a DRAW.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
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master" - Leonardo Da
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#248759 - 05/04/06 07:10 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Mark Hill]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

That's not a reason at all!




Yes it is! It's just not an answer that you like. Don't be an ass.
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#248760 - 05/04/06 07:15 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JoelM]
BrianS Offline
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Joel,

I reserve the right to be an ass,Mark should be afforded the same priveledge.
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#248761 - 05/04/06 11:32 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Interesting observations by all. No way to tell for sure until game day.

As much as I would like to see Royce pull an upset, I don't see it happening. Royce was never a fighter. He was a kid that could use Jiu Jitsu. Other than incredible endurance, he is physically very average. It still amazed me that he got through as many of his UFC matches as he did. That was really a testament to his training.

Matt Hughes has been around the game and worked with better submission people than Royce I'll bet, and is prepared for Royce's closed guard attacks.

I see a replay of Royce vs Sakuraba but with time limits and Hughes being more motivated to punish Royce. If you watch the Sak fight, Royce was unable to do anything to him. I see that happening again.

Who knows though? Without the gi, Royce may be a tornado and steamroll Hughes. Not my bet though.
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#248762 - 05/04/06 05:34 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BrianS]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

Joel,

I reserve the right to be an ass,Mark should be afforded the same priveledge.



And I have a right to call people out when they are being an ass.


Royce will not win.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#248763 - 05/04/06 05:42 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JoelM]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Mark Hill -


Who did Foreman fight?

I can definitely tell you that it wasn't Matt Hughes, nor was it MMA. It was heavyweight boxing....both the sport and weight division with the most tomato cans of any competitive sport.


-John

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#248764 - 05/05/06 12:07 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: JKogas]
muaythaiguy Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Michigan, USA
I'm looking forward to this fight. I expect to see a chess match on the ground, and I think both have at least a fighter's chance of winning. This isn't as clean cut as some think, but I definitely think Hughes is gonna try to keep the fight on the feet, simply because Gracie's not known for any standup. It all depends on who works to the best advantage. I don't want to say for certain who is going to win, but I really just want to see a great fight.
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#248765 - 05/07/06 06:44 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: muaythaiguy]
Rhodes Offline
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Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 2
More than anything, I'm just hoping for a great fight, regardless of who wins. I'd love to see an epic battle.

For sentimental reasons I want Gracie to win. He's the reason most of us got interested in MMA, so it would incredible to see him pull it out, but Hughes is clearly the better fighter today. I give Gracie HUGE respect for having the balls to face Hughes. Say what you will about Royce, he's got guts.

I also don't think it's fair to say Royce has not evolved, although one can debate to what extent he's evolved. In the Yoshida fight, for example, Royce threw some decent strikes and his kicks looked pretty decent, so I expect we'll be surprised at some things when he faces Hughes. In the end, I still think Hughes will beat him, though. Go Royce!

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#248766 - 05/08/06 02:54 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Rhodes]
DragonTiger Offline
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Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 27
Loc: New York
I'm not sure if this has been said, but BJ Penn beat Hughes rather quickly w/ RNC. He might have been stronger than Royce, but I think Royce still has some tricks up his sleeve. I'm sure that Hughes has improved a lot since then, but maybe Royce has worked on his stand up game too. I'd like to see Royce win.

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#248767 - 05/08/06 03:53 PM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: TeK9]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
Quote:

. Has anyone taken that into consideration? Gracie was fighting guys 50 pounds heavier than he was. Sometimes fighting 4 opponents in 1 day. You cannot dimiss this.





Exactly!!! Hughes is arrogant. He needs to be handed an a$$ whoopin, and if it is not Gracie, then St.Pierre will do it whenever the UFC stops screwing him out of his title shot.
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#248768 - 05/10/06 04:46 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: fattts14]
streetfighter3 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 9
yer i got to admit hughes is a cocky arrogant kind of guy.. which i dont think has much respect for royce or his style!.. but i believe that royce is going to take this guy down.. a. because i believe even though matt is an allround fighter he still has lost to grapplers.. including bj pen which is a 2nd degree blackbelt in bjj.. royce is now a 8 or 9th dan now.. B. matt thinks he can take him on stand up.. but once royce grabs him and keeps him on the ground.. i dont think that matt could do much.. dont know if royce not wearing a gi makes much difference though. C. if u havnt seen royces latest fight against sakuraba then u really doesn't know how much royce has evolved. he is doing much more kicks.. and and he's striking ability has improved immensly. i believe that royce is going to choke matt hughes out. once he takes it to the ground..

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#248769 - 05/12/06 03:59 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: streetfighter3]
Diabolic Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 256
Loc: San Jose, California
Boo you moved the thread! Have you guys seen the ticket price for this fight? $1000 to $100 and the $100 are nosebleeds. I sense alot of people flying in to see Royce hence the rediculous price.
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#248770 - 05/12/06 05:54 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: Diabolic]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Physique is cool,technique is better. Royce will win. woot woot!!
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#248771 - 05/28/06 12:19 AM Re: Gracie vs. Hughes [Re: BrianS]
Eric4444 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 430
Didn't see the fight, but according to what I've read online, Hughes took the win in the first round, dominating the entire time.
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