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#247344 - 04/19/06 01:13 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: wristtwister]
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Member
Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 378
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Quote:
I thought that Professor Cates has about the best perspective on real martial arts of anyone I've ever met. He was business partners with Don Nagle (Isshin Ryu) and trained with some of the best people in American martial arts history. He trained Olympic competitors and was active in the formation of the USA's national judo programs.
Again, this is your perspective based on your experience with the man. I don’t argue it by any means. How can I? I have never met him. Every bit of what you claim may be true, but when it comes to a forum like the internet, none of this matters. Here, its ALL presentation.
Quote:
Like he said, the internet isn't the mats, and a lot of the "intellectual" internet martial artists have never set foot on them or had to block a punch to keep from getting their teeth knocked out, so their credibility is what is questionable... not the real players. They are like generals that never have been in a battle, so their perspectives, while they might be "intellectual" are way off in practice. A good old fashioned "a$$-kickin'" changes a lot of perspectives.
Gotta disagree again. Do you really believe that who can beat whose ass defines right of perspective?? Just because I have a different view of a certain technique, and just because you can kick my ass, doesn’t for a second mean I wrong!
Might does not make right.
Thing is, I see where you are going with this. I agree that experience counts for a lot, however, in a venue like the internet, experience means nothing. People’s claims to experience (I trained with so-and-so; I wont this and that tournament) cannot be verified. You say that you have the experience. I cant verify that, so it doesn’t figure into the conversation.
On the mat, absolutely. On the internet, absolutely not.
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I've said many times "it's all about intent"... if your intent is to make somebody look intellectually foolish and you're good at crafting your arguments to do that, then you better stick to the boards. On the mat, you'll get your a$$ handed to you.
Assuming that this is so, the opposite is true as well. If you can ONLY perform well on the mat, but cannot form a cohesive, intellectual argument, then you better stay on the mat. On the internet, you will get you a$$ handed to you.
Quote:
The old saying that "old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill" is true...
Ah the rallying cry of all aging warriors, and it isn’t true.
Tell me…how many professional boxers are there over the age of 50?? How many UFC / Pride champions are there over the age of 50???
Damn few, if any.
Why??
Because they CANT keep up with youth and skill. Hard pill to swallow, but true none the less.
Quote:
so let's keep it real, and remember that one of the reasons there are "old martial artists" is because they've been there and back... not just for the argument, but for the fight.
And herein lies one of my most basic points. Yes, the old timers (and God help me, I am becoming one) have been there and back, but you cannot expect everyone to bow and scrape to you simply because you have been around for 100 years. I have known plenty of old timers who are complete idiots (as well as some absolute brilliant ones as well).
You want to keep it real?
Then stop pretending that being experienced automatically means being right.
G
Edited by Galen (04/19/06 01:15 PM)
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!
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#247345 - 04/19/06 01:48 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: Ronin1966]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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Kinda with Ronin 1966/and Galen on this.
One of the advantages of the internet is that we can use it to get past notions of rank and status and focus on the quality of ideas presented.
Is this system perfect?
No.
Is it abused?
Sometimes.
But I think the advantages outweight any negatives.
I agree with the prof--except that I think various argeuments and sqaubbles have pretty much always been a part of martial arts.
Its not in any way "new."
Kinda saddened that its not.
Edited by cxt (04/19/06 01:49 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.
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#247346 - 04/19/06 05:33 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: cxt]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
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If you were a fly on the wall in any bar/pub on any friday/saturday night of the year you could hear any and all of the following: Humour, critique, lies, tall stories, knowledgeable conversation, heated argument, sexual banter, and all other variations on the human condition. That is all face to face RL interaction, and the internet merely reflects what humans talk about in general- the only thing that changes is that it allows you to be that fly on the wall and interact with the bar patrons at will.
My frustrations if i were coming from this professor's point of view, would not be the content of the internet chat rooms, but rather the human traits it brings so sharply into perspective.
as it is I am with Galen on this issue. Some posts are good, some are bad, I use my own judgement to take what I consider to be of value from the medium.
I am still very much in awe that we have such a wonderful tool as the net with which to be so dissatisfied.
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#247347 - 04/19/06 05:58 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: wristtwister]
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Dragon
Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
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I can sympathinse with Professor Cates feelings, but one need to keep in mind that if you fight battles on the internet, you pretty much have to accept the trash that comes with the venue. The equivalent, in person, would probably be like trying to have a serious discussion in an insane asylum.
Until a person has experienced the full scope of ugly ignorant prating that often passes for internet discussion, they will probably be in shock at some of the things said. Plus it will certainly make them appreciate a well managed site.
Still, the bottom line is that you need to value someone's words - to be wounded by them.
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#247348 - 04/19/06 06:34 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: Joss]
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Member
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 272
Loc: VA
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Anyone who wastes their time trying to prove a point across the net, without any real experience of that point, is ignorant.
_________________________
The only thing a belt is good for is to hold your pants up
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#247349 - 04/19/06 07:02 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: wristtwister]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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do you think the three things are mutually exclusive?
* good fighter
* good written/research/communication skills.
* good budoka
picture the people you've met in training...someone could be the nicest amd most polite person you could ever train with, very humble, has full understanding of what the Martial way is all about and has a supurb dedication to their study....but happens to be a horrible fighter. are they a paper tiger?
or, imagine someone who is a great fighter with poor communication skills, lousy attitude and always manages to rub people the wrong way. are they budoka?
then, imagine someone with so-so fighting ability, a good researcher and communicator with excellent attitude. where do they fit into a sterotype?
I've been on the forum for 1 year, one thing I've noticed is stereotyping, while at times funny, is a waste of time other than for the humor.
The only way to really get an idea of where someone is at in their training is to train with them in person...irregardless of their online personna. It has to be looked at on a case by case and in person. The 'silent but deadly' vs. the 'loudmouth kuchibushi' forum stereotypes do not always hold true when compared to in person.
as far as using real names, I agree. but I also understand the right to privacy. one thing I can say is if someone chooses not to use their real name, then that exempts them from the right to [censored] about others also choosing not to do so. since that would be as hypocritical as someone pretending to be something they are not.
Different yet similar in hypocracy to a style-founder or 10-dan recognized and awarded by an ego-stroking soke-council yet making observations of ego-centricity of online forums... while the person's fighting ability may be great, the person's integrity gets put into question.
The fact is, the forum is NOT a mat. therefore it's worthless to try and communicate like we are in that environment. If someone insists on putting things in those terms in a forum, then they should spend all of their online time trying to meet up with people to train together, instead of writing people off as 'intellectual therefore paper tigers'.
Edited by JoelM (04/20/06 12:05 AM)
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#247350 - 04/19/06 07:05 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: Galen]
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like a chiropractor, only evil
Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
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Galen, you make some good arguments, but some flawed ones as well. I guess that where we split on issues is where reality goes past virtual attitudes and imagination. Reaching level 7 on a computer game doesn't make you a "martial arts master", and when it comes to attitudes about techniques, I think I'll stick with experience and training instead of some internet attitude. Your obvious disdain for anyone who has "years of experience" is clear, so it simply points out that you have no respect for learning lessons for real or for your elders who have already done so. You're part of the group that somehow assumes you're right just because you think it and can "google" some kind of information that backs you up. This is exactly where Professor Cates case is proved. Martial arts are learned "through the body" not from conversation, and where your argument falls down is in your statement "might doesn't make right"... In the real world, good technique beats bull$*** every time. On discussion boards, you can say anything and if it's tolerated by the moderators, you get by with it. On the mats, the guy knocks you on your a$$, so you learn a lesson "the hard way". Quote:
You cannot expect everyone to bow and scrape to you simply because you have been around for 100 years.
Well Slick, I can't remember expecting anyone to "bow and scrape" anything, but your manners show quite well. If you actually have any training, it also shows how well your teachers have taught you to respect others. You see, the "courtesy" in martial arts is "military courtesy", and people with higher rank do take the lead. If you want to discount experience, go to a doctor that learned his medicine on the internet and has no experience... I'm sure he'll fix you up "just fine".
What's being taught in martial arts schools today isn't much at all "martial arts". Many of the "masters" opened a school a week after getting their black belt, so their depth of knowledge of deadly skills is as shallow as your respect for long-term training.
Unlike your generation, learning and teaching true deadly skills required that you spend the time to mold your character to be able to handle them. What's going on today, is like handing out guns in nursery school. When somebody gets killed, the teacher will be "real sorry", and look for another student to replace the one that was unfortunate enough to be on the wrong end of something that they weren't ready to know about.
I could waste my time trying to convince you that you're wrong, but after all, this is just another internet board where you can identify yourself as anybody and b-s your way to any level of competent knowledge, so what's the point? Unfortunately, there are some true martial artists that want to discuss actual issues, and it is there that Professor Cates' frustration arises, along with many others.
That's why we still go to martial arts camps and seminars, and train in each other's dojos, mindful of the respect due those that have fought and taught, and dedicated themselves to something higher than their game score.
I keep a sign on my computer at work that says "no amount of artificial intelligence will replace natural stupidity". It clearly puts "internet logic and 'virtual martial arts'" in its real place in the great scheme of life.
As for "old guys" competing, take any of your competitors to one of the national camps and challenge any of the master instructors. That might be a lesson worth watching... Seems to me, the "old guys" are always the coaches... wonder why that is???
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
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#247351 - 04/19/06 08:00 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: wristtwister]
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Member
Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 378
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Quote:
Your obvious disdain for anyone who has "years of experience" is clear, so it simply points out that you have no respect for learning lessons for real or for your elders who have already done so.
The leap in logic you make here is quite beyond me, but just for sake of clarity…
I do not have disdain for those with experience. I have disdain for those who are idiots. I never said, anywhere, that everyone with experience is an idiot, or wrong. What I did say is, and listen close because you clearly have an issue understanding:
Having experience doesn’t necessarily make you right. It doesn’t necessarily make you wrong either! It all about how well you can communicate your point, at least in an internet forum.
Quote:
You're part of the group that somehow assumes you're right just because you think it and can "google" some kind of information that backs you up.
Once again, a leap in logic COMPLETELY unfounded by anything I have said. I see a trend here…
Quote:
This is exactly where Professor Cates case is proved. Martial arts are learned "through the body" not from conversation, and where your argument falls down is in your statement "might doesn't make right"... In the real world, good technique beats bull$*** every time. On discussion boards, you can say anything and if it's tolerated by the moderators, you get by with it. On the mats, the guy knocks you on your a$$, so you learn a lesson "the hard way".
Hold on here…are you actually saying that if you can beat me up, that makes you right?
Interesting perspective…if you truly believe that, please lets stop talking now, because you are so far in the dark ages, I am not sure you understand the language I am speaking anyway…
More to the point though, I already admitted that experience counts for a great deal!! I never disputed that! On the mat is one thing, on the internet is another. Both are forums for demonstrating skill; one physical, one intellectual. If you ‘knock me on my ass’, as you so eloquently say, then yes, I have learned a lesson. If you get knocked on your ass intellectually, you seem to fall back on ‘Yes but I can kick you ass’. A little on the Neanderthal side, dontcha think??
Quote:
Well Slick, I can't remember expecting anyone to "bow and scrape" anything, but your manners show quite well. If you actually have any training, it also shows how well your teachers have taught you to respect others. You see, the "courtesy" in martial arts is "military courtesy", and people with higher rank do take the lead. If you want to discount experience, go to a doctor that learned his medicine on the internet and has no experience... I'm sure he'll fix you up "just fine"
Slick! I like that!
Anyway, bow and scrape was just an expression, so don’t get too bent out of shape, however the fact that you expect a certain amount of respect based on your experience shows that you completely miss my point. You so far have made no logical case. All I have heard so far is, ‘I have experience, so you should respect me.’
Sorry ace. You have to do better than that. You want respect? Earn it. Don’t waste my time with how much experience you have. For all I know, you are full of crap. I respect clear, logical arguments. So far I haven’t seen much of that from you, at least in this thread.
If I actually have any training…well, I would be contracting myself if I fell back on my training history, so I wont. My whole point is that it doesn’t matter how much training I have. What matters is how well I present my argument, and at the end of the day, on the internet anyway, that is ALL that matters.
Quote:
What's being taught in martial arts schools today isn't much at all "martial arts". Many of the "masters" opened a school a week after getting their black belt, so their depth of knowledge of deadly skills is as shallow as your respect for long-term training.
ok. Fine. You are right. Here on the internet, I don’t give a damn about experience. And since we are being SO polite to each other, I don’t think I have seen a bigger name-dropper than you, friend, so do I respect you? Cant say I do. Most of what I have seen from you is ‘I trained with so-and-so’ and ‘I have this much experience’ blah blah blah. In this thread, I haven’t seen anything worth respecting.
Quote:
I could waste my time trying to convince you that you're wrong, but after all, this is just another internet board where you can identify yourself as anybody and b-s your way to any level of competent knowledge, so what's the point? Unfortunately, there are some true martial artists that want to discuss actual issues, and it is there that Professor Cates' frustration arises, along with many others. That's why we still go to martial arts camps and seminars, and train in each other's dojos, mindful of the respect due those that have fought and taught, and dedicated themselves to something higher than their game score.
You realize that the venom you are spitting at me is as easily applied to you, right? Just so ya know…
Quote:
As for "old guys" competing, take any of your competitors to one of the national camps and challenge any of the master instructors. That might be a lesson worth watching...
OK…just go on believing that…
Quote:
Seems to me, the "old guys" are always the coaches... wonder why that is???
well let me give you a hint…because they cant compete anymore!!!! I admit freely that the more experienced are FAR better teachers!! No argument, friend. But if I am not mistaken, your tune is changing a little here. Actually, its changing a lot. Ah well…
Let me state my points clearly here, so that there is no mistake.
1) simply because you are experienced (at least you claim you are) does not make you right.
2) Experience counts for a great deal in the real world, but on the internet, it counts for nothing. Here, only logical, reasonable presentation is what matters. If your ego cant take not being respected simply because you ‘claim’ to be experienced, then stay in your dojo where everyone knows (or at least believes) what you say is true.
I haven’t seen much from you here in the way of logical, well thought-out argument, but at the end of day, I am glad we had this exchange. If nothing else, it reinforced my original opinion of you.
Galen
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!
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#247352 - 04/19/06 08:50 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: wristtwister]
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Member
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 26
Loc: toronto,ontario,canada
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Quote:
Reaching level 7 on a computer game doesn't make you a "martial arts master", and when it comes to attitudes about techniques, I think I'll stick with experience and training instead of some internet attitude.
Great. Do so and get off the website.
Quote:
Your obvious disdain for anyone who has "years of experience" is clear, so it simply points out that you have no respect for learning lessons for real or for your elders who have already done so. You're part of the group that somehow assumes you're right just because you think it and can "google" some kind of information that backs you up.
Galen’s point, I think, is simply that “years of experience” is not all there is to it. Any ‘instructor’ who has operated any school for more than (insert number here) years has “years of experience” and there are indeed a heck of a lot of idiots (sorry, bad martial artists), with experience, running dojos out there. You must agree with that, don’t you think?
Quote:
This is exactly where Professor Cates case is proved. Martial arts are learned "through the body" not from conversation, and where your argument falls down is in your statement "might doesn't make right"... In the real world, good technique beats bull$*** every time. On discussion boards, you can say anything and if it's tolerated by the moderators, you get by with it. On the mats, the guy knocks you on your a$$, so you learn a lesson "the hard way".
You are assuming that because Galen is merely posting on the internet that he has not learned ‘through the body’ and that he lacks good technique. We don’t know anything about the guy and for all we know he COULD knock you and me on our ass. That’s his point; on this forum the ONLY thing that counts is sound argument.
Quote:
Well Slick, I can't remember expecting anyone to "bow and scrape" anything, but your manners show quite well. If you actually have any training, it also shows how well your teachers have taught you to respect others. You see, the "courtesy" in martial arts is "military courtesy", and people with higher rank do take the lead. If you want to discount experience, go to a doctor that learned his medicine on the internet and has no experience... I'm sure he'll fix you up "just fine".
Well Namecaller, respecting an instructor in their dojo is a far cry from respecting them in an internet post. If I attend another teacher’s class it is my job to shed ego completely while there, give myself utterly to what is taught that day, and judge later while in the comfort of my home. On the internet. Bowing and scraping is perfectly appropriate behaviour in class. This website allows a freer discussion.
Quote:
What's being taught in martial arts schools today isn't much at all "martial arts". Many of the "masters" opened a school a week after getting their black belt, so their depth of knowledge of deadly skills is as shallow as your respect for long-term training.
Oh my, there you go again assuming that the guy doesn’t repect long-term training. I don’t remember him saying that.
Quote:
I could waste my time trying to convince you that you're wrong, but after all, this is just another internet board where you can identify yourself as anybody and b-s your way to any level of competent knowledge, so what's the point?
Sorry, what did you say? “B-s your way to any level of competent knowledge”? That’s precisely what you CAN’T b-s your way to. Galen’s point again.
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#247353 - 04/19/06 09:13 PM
Re: Professor Cates "nails it"
[Re: wristtwister]
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de riddim master
Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
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The internet shouldn't be a place for negativity when you want to talk about your passion or hobbies. It's a great way to kill them.
If I ever come across a site or person on a site that puts me, my art, my other passions down, I'll simply not come back here again, you can bet on that. I don't know why Black Belts are getting offended....you're a Black Belt meaning that you must have (hopefully) gained SOME faith in your art and not let people put it down so easily and control your mind to believe less in your art. If you are one of those easily manipulated people, get off the site and don't stop training. I would hate to have negativity in my mind about my Martial Art, my music, myself. If this happens to you, get off and regain your touch.
You do have control over this, you know.
_________________________
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."
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