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#246257 - 04/15/06 01:05 AM ISSHINRYU WANSU KATA
ETHOS Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 17
Hi All

while doing wansu kata, i wondered why in the final move after the double shutos why is the hand on the obi open? all the previous katas that i've learned end with hands closed. since when you stack your hand it signifies that you are grabbing something; then how come in Wansu the hands are open. thanks in adv.

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#246258 - 04/19/06 08:28 AM Re: ISSHINRYU WANSU KATA [Re: ETHOS]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Good question. I've heard that the open left hand on the obi is a threatened technique that's not needed, as the opponent concedes defeat.
_________________________

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#246259 - 04/20/06 03:38 PM Re: ISSHINRYU WANSU KATA [Re: ETHOS]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ethos,

There is not a simple answer for your Wansu ending, unless your instructor/school/group have an offical answer. Of course you should first check with your instructor about that.

There are a number of different Wansu ending variations I'm aware of. In fact the version I use is slightly different and my answer would not help you.

If you think of the simplest answer, that the right hand is performing a backhands strike to the neck, perhaps the left hand is just being chambered at the same time to accentuate the right strike.

Then if you get into the variances of movement, various arm or leg traps might be used with the left hand as the right hand strikes.

There are a number of clear options.
1. Whatever meaning(s) were used by Isshinryu's founder (they were not passed down through my instructor's teaching).
2. Movement flow analysis of the motions involved.
3. More liberally if the timing and sequencing of those final applications were changed other potentials are expressed.
4. On a far different level, those movements may be incorporated into other Wansu kata techniques for an application.
5. On an even different level, those movements may be incorporated into other Isshinryu kata techniques for application study.

As a student your instructor will define the lines.
As a researcher or instructor you have the option to use the system as you feel appropriate.

As is the case for almost all Okinawaan karate, there is no simple defined answer.

Historically Shimabuku Sensei's Wansu kata is a variance of Kyan's Wansu with an entire series of new movements (the side kicks, the elbow strike, the ending kicking sequence (two variations - knee strike then kick, or just front front kick) and the closing. The entire ending being Shimabuku Sensei's unique additions.

In fact I wonder if Wansu as a creation was a precursor to his SunNuSu kata. In SunNuSu he developed the elbow (sure it's a forearm but elbow works) striking sequences much further.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#246260 - 04/20/06 05:31 PM Re: ISSHINRYU WANSU KATA [Re: ETHOS]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

Our explaination is likely quite different from most/many "Isshin camps"

The previous movements (what you call "double shuto") has an upward and downward aspect embedded in that movement. If successful with the upward portion the opponent will have their ribs in the ideal position for that short distance open handed palm strike.

If unsuccessful, (or merely not as effective as planned) the downward aspect can redirect their arms-body just enough to slip the palm inside the ~opened drawbridge~ of their floating ribs.

Something to consider, and as always I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff (Gladly can explain in smaller detail if not sufficently clear re: the so called "double-shuto")


Edited by Ronin1966 (04/20/06 05:35 PM)

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#246261 - 04/25/06 09:07 PM Re: ISSHINRYU WANSU KATA [Re: Ironfoot]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ironfoot:

<<I've heard that the open left hand on the obi is a threatened technique that's not needed, the opponent concedes defeat.

You are kidding... right?!?!?!

There might be angles or directions not perceived by/on the "surface" of a particular defense. But the palm is entirely viable and has ZERO to do with my palm being on the attackers belt/belt line... "as a threat"

J


Edited by Ronin1966 (04/26/06 12:08 AM)

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