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#245759 - 04/19/06 09:12 PM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by wristtwister -

Quote:

The statistical data is always impressive and depending on whose numbers you use, you'll get different kinds of results




Touche.
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#245760 - 04/20/06 11:38 AM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: MattJ]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"The statistical data is always impressive and depending on whose numbers you use, you'll get different kinds of results"

What I would imagine is that the test results show punching power under ideal circumstances.
I doubt very much that you would get the same results in the middle of a full on fight, without rules.
This leads to my (and my instructors) argument that to train for the KO punch to the exclusion of all else as short sighted and foolish. Which brings me to...

"Nishiyama Sensei told me at a luncheon meeting in the 1980's that he felt that karate teachers didn't spend the kind of time it took to teach students how to "make power" in their punches. If your punch isn't a "knockout punch", then it needs work. "Ikken Hisatsu" isn't just a rhetorical aspect of karate, but a foundational basis of the development of the techniques. "To kill with one stroke" was a mandatory development for empty handed fighters during the era of the Samurai, because if they didn't kill their adversary, they were the next in line for a dirt nap."

With all due respect to Nishiyama Sensei, I believe that this is a very "Japanised" view of karate and very much depends on how you view the history of the art.
You mention about the use of empty hands against samurai, well, I've got to disagree. I do not believe for one minute that the Okinawan art of Te has anything to do with fighting Samurai.

"that's also why we study "pressure points", so you know where to "apply" your technique."

This I agree with, although from my own practice I have found that PPs do not require the kinds of force that you are stating. In fact to try and strike PPs with full force actually hinders the accuracy of the strike and is therefore counter productive. Less power and the use of one knuckle (and similar) strikes would be the order of the day.

As I said in my first post, I think that the different applications are just two points on the same continuum.
Both have their uses and both should be trained for.
Just not one to the exclusion of the other.
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#245761 - 04/20/06 07:03 PM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: McSensei]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

"To kill with one stroke" was a mandatory development for empty handed fighters during the era of the Samurai, because if they didn't kill their adversary, they were the next in line for a dirt nap."





Didn't mean to imply they were just fighting against Samurai... "ERA of the Samurai," is what I said, which involved all kinds of people carrying swords, spears, knives and the like. There were also many others that wore armors of different kinds, and that too dictated "accurate" strikes and pressure point hits necessary to stay alive.

I won't disagree with you that Nishiyama Sensei is "Japanese" in his thinking, but he's also about the top technical expert in karate from Funakoshi's line; so I wouldn't discount his concern or his expectations for what karate should develop.

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#245762 - 04/21/06 03:16 PM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: wristtwister]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Guys thanks for the input. But maybe it is better to continue this topic on striking you are focussing on in a separate post( in the martial arts talk perhaps). I'd love to comment in such a thread.
This one however was intended to hear about other peoples experiences in jiujitsu.
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#245763 - 04/21/06 06:40 PM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: Ives]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've often tried to make my students think of jujutsu as "what's next" when they're doing karate. Once you block a punch or side step a kick, what do you do? Of course you can hit the opponent, but that's not "control", so where do you take your next movements to control the situation?

Atemi IS a great deal of jujutsu, so it's in its proper place here, but as far as experiences go, anyone training in karate should be doing jujutsu as well, if for no other reason to be able to expand their bunkai in kata. As a self defense art, it encompasses most of the others, and many of them are derivitives of different types of jujutsu styles.

Whether its called jujutsu, jujitsu, chin na, or whatever "ryu" you want to call it, there's a "taste of jujutsu" in almost any art you study, so when your schedule frees up some time, go ahead and jump back in... there's plenty to learn and lots of places to start.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#245764 - 04/21/06 06:52 PM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: wristtwister]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
WT,

I'm glad we finally reached a point on which we can agree.
The best thing I ever did to improve my understanding of kata bunkai was join a jujutsu club.

Most of what I had learned still had a kind of misty shroud over it until I went to watch a JJJ class.
Kata applications were literally pouring forth from every corner of the dojo and I could not wait to get started.

Ives,
Get in there and train, my good man. It will be the making of you as a karateka.

Sounds kinda odd though doesn't it?
Go to a JJJ class to get a better understanding of karate.


Edited by McSensei (04/21/06 06:53 PM)
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#245765 - 04/22/06 06:13 AM Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* [Re: McSensei]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
"Get in there and train, my good man. It will be the making of you as a karateka.

Sounds kinda odd though doesn't it?
Go to a JJJ class to get a better understanding of karate."

It does sound odd, but I see what you mean!
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