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#243451 - 05/07/06 06:24 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Ah, a deeper question. Shorin, is not one system, but a vast amount of systems these days. Original Shorin, or Shuri Te had almost all the moves as do the systems of Shorin today. Like the vertical or Sun fist of Isshin, it is part of our system. Same as the way to generate power by the whipping method. However, also there is the thrust techniques that most do not sometimes teach. What I believe happened is that the Old Karateka were all taught the system, they choose to modify it into different things as this is where they saw importance. Maybe it was because of their stature, if one were small, power against power would not be appropriate. Maybe it was based on actual available knowledge. If my Sensei were a bone doctor, he may have insight into Koppo techniques that another's may not. I hope that all Shorin has Tai Sabaki, but even this is taught differently among schools and groups. Actually, go to a Shorinkan dojo and train, later go to a different Shorinkan dojo. They will have a good amount of similarity, but they will also have differences. The things that should not change are Kata, Core concepts and Philosophy. My Sensei once told me that we take our Te and it becomes part of us, and we make it into our own. I believe this means that we interpret and transmit it different as well. This may be why there are so many schools teaching what would appear to be the same. To a lessor extent, it may also be driven by greed, recognition or reputation.

See, you admitted it, you have taught, so even if you don't claim it, you have been a Sensei.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#243452 - 05/07/06 06:49 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Ed_Morris]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
I think Nagamine Shoshin didn't learn Seisan. I've heard it said by someone, maybe on this forum, that he wasn't taught Seisan by Kyan because it was a "beginner" kata, and he already had experience in karate when he came to Kyan. He actually might have said or written that in one of his books. His first teacher was Kotatsu Iha of Tomari te lineage, of which seisan was not a part. I see Matsubayashi as unique because it has preserved several kata of the tomari lineage which do not exist in any of the other shorin ryu schools. Isshin Ryu also has tomari te influence, but not all the kata overlap, and Isshin ryu also has influence from naha te. Matsubayashi is also unique from the other shorin schools in its pre-arranged kumite sets, which Nagamine adapted from Motobu's teaching and principles.
I'm not sure that the break down of styles/ryus has a lot to do with comprehensive self-defense methods. It's mostly about lineage and politics. The specific kata curriculum is what differentiates them, I think. I've not encountered anyone who had a really convincing answer for what you're asking right now.
If you're good at karate, and people recognize you as such, but you have not received the stamp of "full transmission" of a particular teachers' system, what do you do? Should that prevent you from teaching, if you have the talent for it? You teach what you know or what you think is worth teaching, combining what you've learned from various teachers, and call your school's system by a new name. I think it's as simple as that. Sometimes you invent a new kata that strings together some basics to make it easy to remember them. I think in general, there is very little "fighting" going on in shorin ryu schools, so that there is really nothing to compare. Or the fighting looks like generic kickboxing/karate and the kata principles aren't really practiced, as in that video someone linked to of "shorin ryu" sparring.
In this day and age, the reputation of a particular school or system depends on the reputation of the founders and masters of its lineage. They are the most successfull and famous because they survived world war two, and had the drive to keep karate practice alive by opening schools for the general public. So they are respected and honored not necessarily for fighting prowess, but for their efforts in rebuilding and expanding Okinawan karate to the world.

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#243453 - 05/07/06 10:29 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I hope Mr. Tosh, wasn't refering to me in his message, I was just asking honest questions from people who I assume have experience. I don't think I ever bad mouthed anyone nor spoke ill about anyones style. I hope things don't get weird if I go to Mr. Tosh's dojo and ask questions...What an ackward position I feel I'm in, and I don't even know for sure if it's the style I wanna do.

On a different note, I can't believe I found my old instructor on the web. Master Murphy is head of some business/christian organization called Black Belts of the Faith International, any of you guys heard of this place or are members? Master Murphy now thats a guy who teaches no non sence self defense. Groin shots, eye gouges, throat chops. Multiple assailants: attack first ask questions later. Rule of thumb is it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Some one you old timers should know this expression I presume.

P.s. When we did light grappling, I was a lil freaked out when my MA instructor/pastor went straight to my groin to demonstrate how effective groin shot can be. Thank god he stopped at the inner thigh, freaked me out back then, looking back now I see how hillarious the circumstances were. I mean with all these priest being accused of touching people in the naughty spots.

I hope you guys get the joke.

Not that priest abusing children is a joke, but I meant about my MA instructor teaching me real self defense and him being a christion pastor and stressing real self defense like groin grabs/strikes. not that he ever really grabbed the juels but the inner thigh.

Ah crap maybe I should just erase this whole stupid post...
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#243454 - 05/07/06 10:57 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: TeK9]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
asking questions (which is all you were doing) about a prospective place to train should never make you feel awkward. ...just go and check the gym out. you've gotten more info here than what most get when they first begin training at a new place.

Thanks Paul and Wu. one thing that Wu said made me kindof grin...so Seisan is a more 'basic' kaishu kata than say...Ananku?

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#243455 - 05/07/06 11:13 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Yes, Tek, if I were Mr. Tosh, I would be impressed with your thoroughly checking me out. Most people just accept what is said to them and never ask questions.

If you do decide to train with Mr. Tosh, let me know how it goes. I would be interested to know how and what he teaches as he calls it Shorin so it is in my line. Never be afraid to ask a question, if the guy cant answer, accept it, nobody knows everything. However, if he tells you that he cannot share it with you, continue to ask more questions. These are the people that worry me.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#243456 - 05/08/06 06:08 AM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Ed_Morris]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Ananku is very "basic" also. I don't know what qualified Seisan as basic in his eyes, or Kyan's eyes. Maybe he just didn't like it and never bothered to really learn it. Maybe that was something Kyan determined, that Nagamine should start off with a different kata when he taught him. Alls I know is what was said.
I've hear that the goju version of seisan is longer and more complex than the version taught in shorin ryu. I don't know any version of the kata, so I really can't say any more. Dat's just what I heard.

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#243457 - 05/08/06 08:31 AM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: WuXing]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
At one level no kata is more basic or advanced than any other. Yet some contain less moves and others more moves, and some contain techniques that are executed in a simpler fashion than others.

Seisan being taught first, and of course becomes a beginning kata when it is, is not because Seisan is simpler. It's just there is an older tradition, before the Pinan kata, where some groups began students with Seisan.
[Aside, a senior Goju instructor maintains the most advanced Goju kata - Supreimpe - would be the best beginner kata too. The choice begins where your premises lie how beginners should be taught.]

In the Kyan lineage Seisan was taught first, and because it was the first kata Shimabuku Tatsuo studied (from his uncle and then Kyan), it is the first Isshinryu kata too.

While there are differences, the Shorin/Isshin style Seisan (descended from Matsumura No Seisan (as well as the Uechi Seisan from a different lineage), are longer kata than the Goju/Shito/Tomari ones. The Itosu/Funakoshi Seisan/Hangetsu are interrelated to the Matsumura ones in length.

Interestingly, except for those Shorin/Isshinryu groups that begin with Seisan, the remainder tend to make Seisan an advanced or a very advanced kata.

IMO, All of the Seisan are advanced kata, but the groups that begin with Seisan are simply having thir students spend more time studying it than those that teach it after black belt.

While Annaku (a kata Kyan created) is somewhat less complex and of less length than Seisan, Kyan didn't feel a need for it to become a beginning kata for his students. There are many different okinawan versions of Annaku and it's never become clear if they are descended from Kyan's creation, or whether they are from other traditions.

Of course as fascinating a chat discussing how to teach beginers is to beginners, looking more deeply at the advanced attributes of Shorin might be more yielding.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#243458 - 05/08/06 08:36 AM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: TeK9]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
TeK9

You ask, "How many styles of shorin, goju, uechi,isshin, shorinji ryu's can there be???"

George Donahue (Kashiba Juku in the Matsubayshiryu lineage) once explained to me on Okinawa there are maybe 90 Shorin dojo, and each of them is different from each other.

I always took his answer to mean each instructor adds the weight of their experiences to their teaching, and even with common roots, the styles will adapt and change.

Within my Isshinryu there are many times many different divisions and differences.

This is how the Okinawan arts evolved, IMO.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#243459 - 05/08/06 09:43 AM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Renshig]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Renshig

Thanks for your response. I also had an e-mail from Dan this morning. Very polite and reasonable. I'm slightly suprised that you're concerned about my post, as I didn't think that I'd said anything unreasonable, however Ill take a small amount of time to review yours;

"I am a student of Master Tosh. It is amazing how some people in this forum find it hard to believe that Master Tosh is a legit Master of the Arts."

Why. If they've never met the guy their opinions are only based on information that's available. Best method, go train with the guy.

"Is it really a rare thing to be a 9th or 10th dan? There are a lot of masters I have never even heard of that are in different systems."

Herein lies the problem. There are more 10th dans around than you could possibly imagine. Many of these are either self promoted or promoted by a group of freinds who promote each other until they gradually disappear up each others a$$e$.

"Does that mean they are not legit? I think not. Master Tosh is the Soke of ShorinKwoonDo Ryu Shorin-Ryu."

I'll admit that anyone who has the title "Soke" immediately goes to the head of my alarm bells list.

"He was presented the sokeship and also his 9th Degree creditionals at the 1998 San Jose State Gasshuku Masters Seminar."

Sounds exactly what I described above. A group of guys that get together to self promote each other.

"The Ceremony included a Demonstration by Master Tosh of tuite ( Secrete Kata technique) and then a powerful brick break with his fist."

When anyone says "secret" my alarmometer goes haywire!

"Dai Shihan Sig Kufferauth, 10th degree black belt and Soke Sid Campbell, headmaster of the World Okinawan Shorin-ryu Karatedo & Kobudo Association Co-chaired the Blackbelt Council that certified and delivered the new rank.
I bet you guys have never heard of these two mentioned above either huh?"

I'd heard of Sid Campbell before. Never trained with him, but another Soke? How many Soke's can you have?

"I do not know what most of you guys here need or want in a person to consider him/her a true expert/master."

I want good instruction. I don't want anyone who calls themselves Master, Grandmaster, Great Poombaa, or anything else.

"Don't think that you might have found an authentic Okinawen Shorin-Ryu. Know that you have. Don't let us convince you. Just come by the School a few times and check it out for yourself."

Isn't that what I suggested?

"Remember you may go into a school one day and see everyone standing on one leg humming. So as a result you will leave thinking it is phony."

No, I will leave knowing that it's phony!

"But on the other day that you fail to go you might miss something truly special."

If I find you floating in mid air while humming, I'm outa there!

"Also some say that a certain renshi
llowe received his black belt in 18 months.Is that so hard to beleive? Especially after having trained in a similar style?"

Yes.

"How many great masters of the past and present have received their black belt in fast amounts of time??? How many hold other rankings in more then one system? How many hold 2nd, 3rd, 4th degree blk belts in more then 1 or 2 styles without having trained that long in them. How can this Be??"

The self promotion within a group I mentioned before.

"I personally know Renshi Lowe and consider him a very knowlegdable person and teacher when it comes to the martial arts."

Great. I hope you enjoy it then.

"So JohnL come by the Dojo on Wednesday nights at 6pm for kumite(sparring) and then stay from 7pm-8pm to watch a little of the black belt class. We all tend to forget that at black belt level we are not masters yet. Only beginning students in the Martial Arts."

I'd love to. Whenever I travel, I always pack my gi.Why do I have to watch the BB class though. Why can't I join in?
_________________________
John L

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#243460 - 05/08/06 10:05 AM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: JohnL]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
...all excellent points John. but should we bother to get into this? anyone that goes to train there deserves to see the one-legged humming for themselves. although, I'd be curious which tune they hum...maybe 'Turning Japanese' by the Vapors?

ooops...crap...now we ALL have mail again.

lets move on...

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