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#243461 - 05/08/06 11:47 AM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
On and on, we just keep on trying, and I laugh when I feel like crying, on and on, on and on, on and on.

Okay, lets go back to the differences of Shorin Ryu and why they exist. Great post Victor Smith. I think that most styles have the core and Kata intact, but the way may be taught much differently.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#243462 - 05/08/06 12:06 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Ed_Morris]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
OMG that was funny as hell. Turning japanese LOL

I really think so...
Darn in one of his e-mail Mr. Tosh suggested an uechi Ryu school
ran by a 20 something yr.old who earned his first or 2nd. degree bb my Master Allen Dollar, however, I checked out that school and I was not as impressed.

I come from a Taekwondo school and we do modern type practice. What I mean by modern is, we work with partners a lot, we spar or do sparring like exercises a lot. We use alot of focus paddles for our kicks, we do one steps, both for self defense and for sparring competition.

I am not sure if I can go back to a traditional form of trainnig, what I mean by traditional is. Standing around in deep stances supposevely working out your leg muscles. Doing solo forms durring class, without the instrcutor teaching the direct applications out of the kata. Spending an entire day practicing kata when we could be working with partners, which to me seems like a beneficial way of working out. Also I have notice that many schools although it's not considered kata, they have exercises which are idnetical to kata, these are personal exercises which the teacher has created. These can be more exercises tend to be more repititious and can be done as line drills, but I still wonder...whats the point, since we must practice these techniques and stances in kata why break them up into individual exercises. To me it's just another way of having us practice to kill time. When we could be practicing with partners.

In TKD when we do conditioning we do conditioning, we don't hide it by saying okay we are going to hold a sertain deep stance for 30 minutes. We do push ups, sit up, crunches, leg lifts, jumping jacks, mountain climbers, pilates, arobics, running, knee lifts. The whole shabang. And ten we get to the actal martial arts stuff.

But in Traditional training, we do some pushups, sit ups, maybe knee lifts, then we do stance training, holding the stance for 30 minutes,m then swithcing to a new stance for another 30 minutes. Or doing exercises which are similar to the original kata but yet are not the actual kata...

The above experience/training of what I consider traditional comes from my experience in Tang Soo DO Moo Duk Kwan, Kosho Ryu Kenpo, 7 Star Praying Mantis. However, you can generalize that all traditional TKD, all kenpo, kajukenpo and shotokan schools are taught this way.

Not sure if any actual okinawen style dojo's teach in this fashion; I've never taken okinawen style.

But I am asking if it is similar to the above mentioned?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#243463 - 05/08/06 12:39 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: TeK9]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
TeK9,

I don't believe there is a fair generalization that covers all Okinawan karate, nor all Shotokan or all of most systems.

For example following the lead of my Shotokan instructor we don't do warmup drills at all in the adult program, focusing on the study of karate instead. There is obvious value in strength and flexiblity training, but we focus on allowing the student to find those studies on their own efforts. The only thing that makes the execution of karate better is the correct execution of karate.

I have trained and experienced Okinawan schools that use similar training as you practice, and i have trained and experienced Okinawan schools that are quite different.

I have to be truthful, I've never experienced any school in any system that held stances for 5 much less 30 minutes (outside of a few special training sessions) over the years, though the system of tjimande I studied a bit did try and have its students on their first form work up to holding each stance in the form for 5 minutes (making the form an hour workout), but the indonesian arts, known for their deep stances and groundwork have a specific reason to strenghten the legs for their technique sequences.

As to where 2 person training enters the picture it depends on which two person training you're referring to. The game aspect of sparring may be taught the first night in some schools, or after several years training (when a school likes to have students actually able to use correct technique) in others, and still never used in yet other groups. There are very contrasting ways the studies are approached.

As for two person drills I can only speak for myself. Until a student can actually exceute the source technique I stress (almost all coming from kata) I find there is little reason to have them work those techniques against a partner. Instead I focus on those 'unrealistic' two person drills that are regularily knocked, but actually serve a purpose, learning how to enter an unfriendly space and deliver a basic technique. While I could show far more effective simple answers, to do so would stunt the development of real technique. Then in time (which takes years) when they can actually perform the technique, and they have worked on fitting into a space with a basic and unrealistic response from beginning training, do we combine those skills with the study of the movement theories to actually work on the infinite ways kata technique defeat attacks.

So if you dropped by my classes, what you'd see in any class would depend on the students, where they were in their studies, etc. The training the senior students practice for example are not open to public inspection by anyone. Simply becuase only those training work on them.

Of course its' easy to say a school's training is unrealistic when you take a simple glance. But is the goal only instant street defense. If that was the true goal I would teach very differently, but instead I teach the full art and as we're not in a war zone, I'm not looking for instant anything.

Not all schools or styles are created equal. TKD taught by a senior Korean instructor is very different from layers of other TKD programs, as an example. And as one of senior students is Korean, TKD in Korea is very different from TKD in the states, and in the states programs for Koreans are different from programs from non koreans.

Of course not picking on TKD, similar situations exist in amost every art.

Going back to Shorin based systems, they cover such a wide range of training there is no simple charaterization that begins to explain what they are.

Such is my experience.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#243464 - 05/08/06 12:43 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: WuXing]
motobusmonkey Offline
Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 85
Loc: St Louis
.


Edited by motobusmonkey (05/08/06 12:51 PM)

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#243465 - 05/08/06 04:51 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: motobusmonkey]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
good 'point'

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#243466 - 05/08/06 05:18 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Victor Smith]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
I really like Victor Smiths posts. We may not always agree, but if we do not, it drives me to research to either make sure I am right, or change my mind if he is. Thanks Mr. Smith for posting such good information, not just these posts but all posts.

One question, your signature says basically "Hand of the Warrior(actually Warrior of Hand) One Heart Way. Is this a system that you developed based on your training in Isshin Ryu?
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#243467 - 05/08/06 08:38 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Paul,

I really try to be an accurate reporter of what I've experienced, been taught or practice. I pick my topics I respond to because they are of interest to me, or because they cause me to state what I understand, to structure my thoughts. I may be less than right, but I try my best.

For the most part, the biggest problem in the internet is too much hasty generalization about everything. Too much I'm right and everyone else is wrong. Even being right isn't enough, for being right 99% of the time leaves a lot of room for improvement.

As to the genesis of "Bushi No Te Isshinryu", it's not a separate system, but something else. You have to go back decades, when there was no internet, few books and very restricted information avaiable. I had begun my youth program at the Scranton Boys Club and wanted to have a club name. But from the little piece of the world I saw back then, I already knew that the term 'karate' had been stolen. My interest then and today was first to try and undestand what karate was pre 1900, and to try and let that guide my program.

No Isshinryu didn't exist pre 1900, but the manner when karate was a very personal one on one experience with an instructor was what I wanted to preserve.

I didn't like what the name karate was becoming so I choose the only reference material avalabie, Funakoshi Ginchin's writings, where he explained an earlier name for the Okinawan arts was Bushi No Te or 'Warriors Hands - by the translation'.

All I was doing was teaching Isshirnyu, but instead of calling the program simply Isshinryu karate, I choose to make a statement and called it Bushi No Te Isshinryu. And of course it was so obscure almost nobody understood it, and it just became a name, which is all it really was anyway.

A few years later I joined with a group of cross system martial artists that used the name "Bushi No Te" as the group name. The name was purely concidence, and a decade later when I left that group (after much personal growth) my program was still Bushi No Te.

I still teach the Isshinryu I studied. I've also trained with a few instructors and honnor each of them by sharing a piece of their teachings with my students too.

So in a sense we've become something unique, and in a sense we're just an Isshinryu karate program. How much, how little I don't know. We just do.

Would I do the same today? No, I most definately would not. Along the way I've come to realize each generation on Okinawa pointedly went their own way. They remained grounded in the past, but they each grew and changed at the same time.

For the future I don't see any value to hanging on to Okinawn or Japanese terms (unless we're training there or that's all our instructor speaks), and as in Japan I'm sure except for a handfull of terms, they coach, practice and teach baseball in Japanese, and here (speaking for the USA) our true future is the same.

In similar light titles, rank and much else will undergo transformation. Rank will remain for beginners as a useful tool. Rank for long term students will be set aside. Nobody outside of your own dojo really cares about what you do anyway, and in the dojo rank is irrelevant for everyone knows who knows and does what.

The bad baggage about rank have been a canker from the beginnings in Japan. The Okinawan's made a big mistake setting aside their more reasonable traditions to ape those of Japan, IMO.

The word is not the thing, the map is not the territory, and Sensei, Shihan, Hanshi, and all the rest are not the man and or woman.

I respect all serious traditions, but I don't believe they hold a future that will last.

As each generation progresses they'll make their own choices, and not listen to ours, anyway.

My students will call what they teach as they will.

And the beat goes on, and on and on
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#243468 - 05/08/06 09:45 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Victor Smith]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Are you trying to win the Mr. Miyagi trophy of the year?

I really enjoy reading your post. It's a shame you don't live in Northern California, we need instructors like you. People who take the time to explain things and are not just technique demonstrators.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#243469 - 05/08/06 11:14 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Victor Smith]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
I understand where you are comming from, but I also ont agree with it all. You are very knowledgeable ina great system of Karate from Tatsuo Shimabuku. Tatsuo Shimabuku was a man that went against the grain, Eizo once said that he was sorry he stopped speaking to his brother. A great Martial Arts family is there for sure. I do see use in using the terms, but only to keep the spirit of the art. Sensei has always reminded me that my actions go a lot farther than I will know, so I had better act as if I have some common sense about things. I don't all the time, but I try.

About being wrong my Sensei taught me an important lesson. He sat me down one day and held up a ball. It was red in color and he held it with his index finger and thumb wrapped around it. He asked me the color. I said Red. He said he thought I was wrong and he thought the ball was surely blue. We talked about him being wrong, me being wrong and how it sometimes comes from perception or input. Turns out, I was half right. The ball was half blue and half red, but this lesson taught me to look at what others say and try to see it from the perspective they do. I am not always right, but I try to be. I can accept when I am not, and admit it. I know that you are the same.

You can say that again about not liking what the name Karate was becoming. What can we do? I try to keep an open mind but sometimes, the state of Karate makes me roll over laughing at some of the insane crap that people follow. How I wish for the Old Day's. Oh well, Learn from the past, live in the present, and look to the future.

Maybe one day we can get together and trade some Te between us. I would enjoy that as I have come to respect you through your posts.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#243470 - 05/08/06 11:29 PM Re: Anyone practice Shorin ryu? [Re: Victor Smith]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Victor,

That one simple post has has furthered my own personal journey more than anyone could have possibly imagined.

While I can not explain it, you have made a profound impact.

Thank you for all that you share and teach.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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