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#243073 - 04/05/06 12:13 AM Base arts vs. "developed" arts
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
After several assaults by both email and on the boards by the national nit-picking society, a question came to mind that might be a good discussion. It was prompted by several electronic assaults over what I would term "developed arts", such as Aikido and Judo and "base arts" such as Jujutsu and Karate.

While many recognize Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu as the base art of Aikido, it offended some of the Daito Ryu people to even consider "their art" and Aikido as being the same or the techniques as having the same makeup. I even took a beating over one of the comments by a sensei who spoke of Daito Ryu as "the old style" of Aikido (again, no offense intended by either he or I). He spoke of it that way to differentiate between the "Daito" technique and "Aikido" technique.

Clearly, Judo developed from the roots of Kito Ryu and other jujutsu systems in Japan, and no one that I've run across in Judo seems offended to discuss Judo in terms of the Kito Ryu system... but even the Aikido people steam up at talking about Aikido in terms of it being a highly developed form of jujutsu.

As I see it, all technique is evolving, but there have to be some "base techniques" and "base arts" involved in all martial arts. It seems a little short sighted to go off like a bottle rocket anytime someone questions one of them, or brings a different perspective of the art's development, but that seems to be the nature of the beast here... too many "role players" to have a civil discussion.

All of the arts are highly developed today, but many of them are grounded in others that, at the time of their founders study, were not so highly developed, (which prompted the innovations) but have grown together with the "newer" arts as they were tested against other methods.

Thinking of karate as a "hitting art", jujutsu as a "throwing and pinning art", and Aikido as a "blending art", could we have a civil discussion of this without the flame war and hate mail?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#243074 - 04/05/06 12:32 AM Re: Base arts vs. "developed" arts [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia

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#243075 - 04/05/06 04:54 AM Re: Base arts vs. "developed" arts [Re: wristtwister]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand


Wristtwister. May I suggest something. If an Aikido-ka says he's an Aikido-ka, respect it. Don't go on saying "Oh, you dude, you're just doing a developed jujutsu". That's not nice. If a Judo-ka says he's doing judo, respect it. He's not doing an off-shot of jujutsu. If a Muay Thai boxer is doing MT, respect it. Don't go saying "You're doing Muay Boran blended with boxing".

Some arts has developed so far, it's no longer the same as the mother art, and thus sometimes do not acknowledge any relationship to it. Look at Hapkido, do you think the Koreans will say "We just copied Aiki-jujutsu and put in a little TKD techniques and put on another brandname to it". That's not right, as Hapkido is an art by itself.

Quote:

Clearly, Judo developed from the roots of Kito Ryu and other jujutsu systems in Japan, and no one that I've run across in Judo seems offended to discuss Judo in terms of the Kito Ryu system...


That's because Judo, is judo. It's a sport developed from theories of different jujutsu styles, put together with emphasiz on throw to make the sport we know today. What do you think if you told a Wado-ryu karate-ka he's doing jujutsu and claiming to be doing karate? Or a TKD practitioner he's doing Shotokan karate with more emphasis on high kicks. I doubt you will get positive answers.

I think, the best thing to do is; if they are saying they are doing an art, respect it. If they are doing Aikido, they are not doing a "developed form of jujutsu". Although the facts are right, it's not right in manners to say that. For example, if I drive a volvo and I say "I'm in an American car", I'd be offended if you came in and said "It's Swedish!" but Volvo got sold to Ford, so technically, it's American.

Anyway, feel flamed!
-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#243076 - 04/05/06 08:06 AM Re: Base arts vs. "developed" arts [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Taison,
all your points are correct and on target. I'm not accusing anyone of "doing another art", I'm looking at the development of the arts and how much of the "original" technique is left in them.

Sankyo, for instance, is in multiple jujutsu systems with minor variations and a major technique in Aikido. Regardless of whether the chicken or the egg developed first, the technique is there in those systems with differences, and I just find it interesting to watch people suddenly declare that it's not a jujutsu technique, but an aikido technique simply because they're holding their finger differently.

To go back to your car analogy, its like saying a red car isn't a car because it's a blue car.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#243077 - 04/05/06 11:51 AM Re: Base arts vs. "developed" arts [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Wrist

Your questions assumes that "arts" exsist without the human component.

That you can compare say "jujutsu" with "judo" and in concrete terms.

I am not sure that you can, to a great extent what an given art is "like" depends a great deal on the individual person doing it.

How "I" do Wado ryu karate may be very "jujutsu-like" another person may focus more on the strikeing and kicking parts.

Yet were both "doing" Wado ryu.

Another thing to consider is how are you going to view a "developed" art like Judo?

From what I have read and seen, the Judo of today is kinda different from the art Kano developed, techniques no longer done, done in different ways, etc.

(NOT BETTER OR WORSE--JUST DIFFERENT)

So which are going to use as your example of a "developed" art Judo circ 1910 or Judo circ 2006??

Just some thoughts---perhaps not very good ones
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#243078 - 04/05/06 12:51 PM Re: Base arts vs. "developed" arts [Re: cxt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
That's the most thoughtful context, and you're right... I might have been leaving out the "personal" aspect of the techniques, but I was looking at the technical aspects of techniques for what was involved in them, and not so much the execution of them.

In the aspect of looking at a "developed art", you're exactly right... are we looking at today's model of the art or the originally "developed" art? Personally, I think all of the arts have migrated from their starting positions, and do with each teacher's positions on specific items contained in them.

While I have great admiration and respect for Kano Sensei and Ueshiba Sensei, it is clear that they didn't invent their stuff, they refined it. Both were innovators, and both took something already well structured and restructured it to accomplish their vision.

I think there must be a way to compare the arts in concrete fashion, but I'm guessing that it would be done in combat rather than analysis, and again goes back to the human aspect of it. Whoever's the better player would win.

Thanks. That gives me a lot of what I was looking for in my question, and it brings up a lot of others in my mind. As you said:
Quote:

NOT BETTER OR WORSE--JUST DIFFERENT




_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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