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#241825 - 03/30/06 02:53 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

It seems you're undergoing what I might call non-standard training from your instructor, as compared to standard Goju curricula. Just as there are variant versions of Goju kata between different groups and schools, various groups may have incorporated other sorts of training.

Assuming that you're not having a variant spelling of the standard Goju kata, I would say you're instructor's training is drawing on instruction outside of Miyagi Chojun's teachings.

If that is the case you may find no one using the same material, except for those in the same direct transmission.

The standard Goju curricula is readily available almost anyplace on line. John Sells books Unante (I and II) define all the kata he's been aware of, and I don't recall these names in his encyclopedic (yet still not perfect) reference. Nor from Hiagonna Morio's books, nor from John Bishop's or George Alexanders writings on Okinawa.

Of course this doesn't mean your instruction is not true and worthy. It's just you are unlikely to find much about these forms in normal places.

One if you ever get any copies of them on mepg files or on video tape I'm willing to distribute them to select Goju practioners across the world to see if they know anything of them.

There are traditions that have kept private (such as Ryuei-ryu's or Motobu-ryu's previous traditions) and hence are relatively unknown.

For the record I do live in New Hampshire, so I'm in your neck of the woods, but I haven't heard of your instructor.
Just a fact, not with any meaning beyond the statement.

victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#241826 - 03/30/06 03:45 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Yuushi, for what it's worth, I've never heard of the kata names or as you describe...nor have I heard or can find reference to the people you mention as students of Toguchi or Sensei in New England (I'm in Massachusetts)....but thats not saying a whole lot since I don't get out much. lol

I'm afraid we'd need videos to even make a guess for you.

#241827 - 03/30/06 10:31 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Bushi Offline

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1
Loc: Australia
Dear Yusshi
I have been a practitioner of Goju Ryu for over 42 years, and I have trained in Japan, Okinawa, and China, where I managed to traced some White Crane masters who practiced wha they call Tig-wa, more like the Koryu of Okinawa (classical) Well, bugger if I ever came across the Kata you mention my friend. Either your teacher learnt these at some very obscure and unknown Okinawan island very few people knows about, or I'm George Bush!
Nevertheless, one can only learn from this masters, and I for one would love to be able to see what this forms are all about,maybe then I could be of any help, me thinks.

In the Arts

#241828 - 03/31/06 09:14 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Bushi]
Yuushi Offline

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
Ronin- There aren't any closed hand strikes in the beginning of the kata.

Victor- I believe you're right about these kata being outside of Miyagi's teachings. One thing I thought of, would it be possible that these are Japanese Goju kata instead of Okinawan?

Im going to get some .mpeg videos for you guys this weekend if I get time. Hopefully I wont be too busy.

Again, thanks a lot for the help everybody!
Now the shugyo begins!

#241829 - 03/31/06 10:09 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5846
Loc: USA

By and large Japanese Goju uses the same kata list as does Okinawan Goju.

There is nothing stopping a given teacher from adding whatever kata he/she wants.

Thing is, as I mentioned in my first post, I can seem to find those kata on anyones list--Shorin, Shotokan, Ruei-ryu, Goju, Uechi etc.

Might be a question of different names for the same kata--but I just don't know.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#241830 - 03/31/06 10:44 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: cxt]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I've seen a few times that instructors choose to take a segment from a kata (perhaps of the same curriculum, perhaps not) and practice it as it's own drill...they may even choose to name it.

In fact, the Goju dojo I started in, had what the sensei called 'nafuken' (sp?) series (not sure what that translates to, or if it even makes sense) with 5 parts. all 5 were taught to white-belts as a preliminary Gekisai study. all 5 parts had a "+" embusen. block-strike-turn / block-strike-turn / etc. It was not part of the curriculum for test past 10th kyu.

here's what they were (as I remember)
sanchin dachi - upper block, upper punch

zenkutsu dachi - mid block, mid punch

shiko dachi - down block, down strike

sanchin dachi - knife hand block, shuto strike

neko ashi dachi - open hand parry, closed hand punch.

#241831 - 03/31/06 11:58 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Many versions of Goju exist some are self made or thought to be improved verison. Ron Van Cliffs Chinese Goju is one of the Unique verison as is the late Grand Masters Peter Urbans USA Goju, you still see its roots in them.

But those are not traditional Okinawan or Japanese Goju forms. After six years for you to just to have found this out, I hope is not too shocking. How long has your Instructor been teaching and how many systems has he had instruction in.

This may be a synthenized system, I wish people would just change the name rather then stayed connected when they break away. Just my HO. I must asked after six years is the training benifical?

Edited by Neko456 (03/31/06 11:59 AM)

#241832 - 03/31/06 12:40 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Neko456]
Yuushi Offline

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
CTX- My teacher hasn't added or amended any of the kata in my dojo, he has only taught what was taught to him. I don't think that this is a case of a different name for the kata, or that the kata were amended in any way since the kata are very unique from any other kata I have seen.

Ed Morris- Thats an interesting idea, but these kata are as long or longer than Gekisai Ichi, and Hente-do/Do-Butsusan are brown/black belt katas, and contain upper level techniques.

Neko- I have known for years now that my forms are not traditional Goju kata, it's just that now I'm trying to find the roots of my system and my kata. My instructor has been teaching for about 25 years now in this style. He spent a short time in an Aikido and a TKD school, but found his calling at the Goju school led by Mr. Trombly. It was there that he learned these kata. And of course the training is beneficial. I have visited other dojos in my area, even a Goju dojo, and was unsatisfied with the level of discipline and instruction. I have never doubted my system.
Now the shugyo begins!

#241833 - 03/31/06 01:34 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5846
Loc: USA

"My teacher hasn't added or amended any of the kata"

If so then were in a bit of a pickle then are we not?

Those kata, under those names don't exsist in any style of Goju I am aware of.
Nor can I find them in various Shorin, Uechi, etc groups.

Not saying they don't exist, just that I can't find any reference to them--under those names anyway.

Maybe we can narrow it down this way--

Whom taught your teacher?

And whom taught HIS teacher?

Maybe if we trace it back we might find out more than we know now.

Just a thought.

Something else that might help--

What are the other kata in your system?

Maybe we can figure something out by a process of elimination.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#241834 - 03/31/06 01:36 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
neko, I hear your point about not changing curriculum...I'm assuming you mean the 12-kata 'standard' Goju mix. but is it really the kata curriculum that define a style? If a Goju school chooses to concentrate on Goju's 4 core kata (and all might not agree which those are), can't they still justify calling it Goju? I think they can.

Goju's main philosophies are a blend, and it's that blend which makes it Goju...not which combination of it's individual pieces.

Changing curriculum isn't the problem... it's prematurely changing things when it starts to go wrong. usually from incomplete training. It's not impossible to imagine someone having a sho-dan or 5-10 year knowledge of Goju, then independantly opening up shop. Is it Goju? sure, but perhaps only for mudansha students. If that owner decides to bump his own rank, lets say to go-dan...the advance training he is giving his yudansha is with a pre-shodan level of understanding in Goju. - since that is as far as he was instructed. people can't teach what they don't know.
...and when he/she starts changing things just because they can (or eliminating kata from the syllabus since they never learned it), thats when it starts turning into something other than the base style's philosophies.

On the opposite end, if someone is well trained in Goju and understands it, they may find in their continued research and teaching experience that adding/removing a drill, kata, bunkai kumite, etc may better fit the needs without comprimising the fundamental philosophies which make Goju a style.

so for advanced levels, for example if you learn and happen to study a white-crane kata which is not on a goju syllabus, but you study it long enough to see common principles to Goju...then when it comes your time to teach, you may choose to teach THAT kata at advanced ranks instead of a 'standard'.

Just some thoughts to add to the black or white thinking that kata / curriculum / styles should never change.

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