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#241815 - 03/30/06 09:03 AM Help with identifying Goju Kata
Yuushi Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
I have been studying Goju Ryu for about six years now and am trying to research the backgrounds of my kata. The problem is that many of the kata my Sensei teaches are not traditional Goju kata. I was wondering if you guys might recognize the name of any of these kata. Any help is much appreciated!

Isshonisan (Together Three)
Ginchin (Destroy, Defeat)
JuHito (Ten Human)
Hentedo (Way of changing Hands)
Dobutsusan (Way of the three animals)

I'm not sure if the spelling is correct, but thats what they sound like.

Thanks a lot!
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#241816 - 03/30/06 09:09 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Those aren't goju kata.
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#241817 - 03/30/06 09:11 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
If your teacher elects to teach additional, non-classical kata, surely he must have said where/what system he took them from?

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#241818 - 03/30/06 09:23 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sounds very dojo specific. the background research of these may involve looking no further than your instructor.
The names are a bit strange...almost as if someone started with English words and then translated them to Japanese.

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#241819 - 03/30/06 09:51 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Uchinanchu Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
I have to agree with Mr. Morris on this. The Japanese usage is a bit on the simplistic side to be used for any traditionally named kata.
Sounds more like simplified Japanese terminology created by a non-native Japanese speaker.
If your instructor cannot give you valid sources for the history of his particular style, its doubtful that you will find anything about it on your own...
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#241820 - 03/30/06 11:20 AM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Yuushi

I have to agree with the other posters.

Those names don't show up on any Goju (or Uechi, or Ruei-ryu, or Shorin style for that matter) kata list.

Possible that they are different names for "standard" kata but if so I would want to know why the "other" names are being used.

If I was a student there.

BTW as already has been mentioned, the translations you post may MAY actually refer back to a specifc kata.

Gekishi "could" be translated as "demolish or destroy" MAYBE.

Shotokan has a couple of kata that "MAYBE" you could work into a somthing like "ten human" (well "ten" anyway)

Goju's Sanchin can mean "three battles" so its got the "three" in the "Togather Three" thing.

As the story goes Goju, Uechi, and the rest of the "Naha" systems pretty much focus on techniques from the Tiger, Crane and Dragon systems.

So maybe MAYBE the "Way of Three Animals" things refers back to that story.

Gotta tell you though, this sounds pretty weird to me.

As a VERY general rule I always do a "double take" when folks start pulling out non-standard terms for what they do.

Sure there is going to be regional differences in terms--but that is EXACTLY why most trades/hobbies etc have specifc terms for what they involve.

I ask a mechanic or carpenter for an Phillips Head screwdriver--don't care where in the States he is from, he better know what I am asking for.
I ask a plumber to hand me his "snake" I better get a drain cleaning tool
I ask a someone I am climbing with to hand me a "biner" and they had better know what I am asking for.

Weird, unusual, non-standard, terms that don't appear anywhere else in context with the hobby/profession etc that you are doing could very well be a red flag.

Just somthing to consider.


Edited by cxt (03/30/06 11:29 AM)
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#241821 - 03/30/06 12:58 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Yuushi Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
Thanks for the tips.

Ok, Ill start with the lineage of my school. I am studying under Sensei Van Norden. His teacher was a Mr. Trombly in Ft. Worth, TX. Mr. Trombly supposedly studied under master Master Seikichi Toguchi, who was one of Master Miyagi's students. My Sensei believes that maybe Mr. Trombly only studied under Master Toguchi for a short time. This may be true since we study Sanchin, Gekisai Ichi-Ni, Saifa, and Seiyunchin. I doubt that Mr. Trombly made up the kata I am trying to research. Those kata are very well detailed and flow smoothly. I believe that all of the names are in Japanese.
I will give a brief explanation of the kata.
Isshonisan
-It starts off going into a shikodachi then does a series of 3 steps forward with a spearhand following each step. 2 downblocks back left turn mantis block followed by a sidekick. do the same on the other side. step forward front snap sidesnap. it ends with cat stances. The kata uses open hand blocks.

Ginchin
-Starts off with an x block then front snap chop front snap chop.

Juhito
-Steps into shikodachi with double down block, then backfist 3 punches. same on the other side.

Hentedo
-Hard to describe but you have to step back down block step in spearhand step back double palm, grab and sweep.

Dobutsusan
-Way of the three animals, the tiger snake and crane.
-Starts off stepping back in a crane stance front snap and then doing a double openhand down block while moving back in the crane stance.

Harlan-Ive talked a lot with my teacher about these kata, but he's not sure where they came from either. They seem pretty classical. I believe they might be Chinese, theres a chance.

Ronin-I believe theyre all Japanese names. They are all empty handed. You might be right about the dialect. And we don't have any affiliation with any Okinawan/Japanese organization, but like I said Mr. Trombly supposedly studied under Master Toguchi.

CXT-My Sensei doesn't know any more than I do about the history of these kata.

Ill try and post a video of the kata when I get the time.

Thanks for the help!
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Now the shugyo begins!

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#241822 - 03/30/06 01:59 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Yusshi:

When combined all of that should be helpful information in one form or another. There are at least a few experienced Gojuryu folks here. For myself I'll see what I can dig up (if anything) which might be helpful... no promises... my Goju experience is truly small indeed...

Your Hente-do does seem to have a very definate "Tensho kata" flavor to it. Are both arms closed fisted in say the mid-body height as you first begin this kata???

J

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#241823 - 03/30/06 02:29 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Yuushi Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
Hmm... The Kata starts in Hakodachi with your fists out and then you bow in, but there aren't any mid-level closed fist strikes near the beginning of the kata.

This is very interesting, I am surprised that these kata are so mysterious. I hope the info helps.

Domo
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Now the shugyo begins!

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#241824 - 03/30/06 02:49 PM Re: Help with identifying Goju Kata [Re: Yuushi]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Again Yuushi:

<<but there aren't any mid-level closed fist strikes near the beginning of the kata.

After the bow,,, but I did not say strikes though. I simply indicated your arms were both mid-level, closed fisted and as if you were BLOCKING with both your arms at that height... no "hitting"...

Sound at all to be a familiar arm placement/positioning?
J

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