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#241666 - 03/30/06 07:32 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so about 30 years is the general line between being deadly vs....hurtful?

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#241667 - 03/30/06 07:39 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I always ponder if the "finishing blow" in karate is something other than a killing movement. Otherwise, there's no real reason to keep beating the corpse...

I always studied bunkai as "options" from the "standard technique"... in case the 32 killing movements of the initial move wasn't enough to finish this beast...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#241668 - 03/30/06 08:03 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL,

not just time im afraid but it also seems to be directly related to the said old timers expierience and training methods.........

Nothings fixed of course but 30 years seems about right if they started young!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241669 - 03/30/06 10:27 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I personally think a lot of the said "old timers" learned by a lot of trial and error as well. Number one everybody does not have the potential to achieve the same level of effectiveness. I feel with decent athletic ability and a good amount of talent and fighting skills and dedication it takes about 3 years to become effective and 10 years to reach this "deadly" skill. However, the deadliness in my eyes is not some mystical power that allows you to take an opponent out with one hit, but rather a systematic way of defending through offense in which you control your distance with body movement and combination striking, close the distance, unbalance, damage, and control your opponent through strikes, sweeps, locks, and borrowing balance and finally put your opponent on the ground to deliver debilitating attacks via strikes, locks, or chokes. Ikken hissatu refers to the finishing strike in a combination of attacks.

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#241670 - 03/30/06 10:35 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think a karateka 'effectivness' has many, many factors much as you say.

10 years hard training does alot for most, but life expierience cant be snatched and simply comes with time....

The main two karateka im thinking of are both 60 plus and very much capable, however I persoanlly think men aged around 40-50 could be considered in their karate 'prime', ie with 30 years plus training behind them.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241671 - 03/30/06 05:16 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Not long to go then, eh Jim?
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#241672 - 03/30/06 09:23 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You're exactly right... every factor you are studying has a purpose in the karate technique, and collectively they are the "deadly skills" that we all study.

I was probably in my best physical shape with 10 years training. I was in my best "fighting shape" with about 20 years training. My skills were excellent through my 30 years of training, and with 40 years, I understand all the previous training.

When I trained my senior student, I told him on many occasions "you won't understand this for at least 10 years", and he has come back to me repeatedly and said that as he was training, the light would come on and he'd understand completely something we trained in years ago. The only thing that beats experience is learning from it, and having the background to have had the lessons taught to you

.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#241673 - 03/31/06 06:05 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: McSensei]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
what till your 60 mate, nah not long
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241674 - 03/31/06 06:09 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: wristtwister]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think were all on the same page on this one, perhaps different paragraphs!

Whilst i agree that 10 years as a guide is good and many are able to perform things well, the real understanding of application IMO comes later, after 21 years of training I still feel like a baby and see alot of learning ahead.

Knowledge is power after all........

This reminds me of something that I have been told about alot and witnessed - old mans karate, economic, effective and discreet something that matures like good cheese........

Also whilst 'fighting' ability is often percieved to be in the toe to toe format (often competative), perhaps the real ability is to defend oneself on the street - physical ability and conditioning is important but proberly not the absolute primary factor in reality???
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241675 - 04/01/06 07:13 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Quote:

As most of us know here bunkai is not for sparring,it is meant to be an attack ender right from the start. In some kata there are neck,arm,or other bone breaks. There are strikes to vital areas that would kill too,but isn't it just all hypothetical? There's no way of testing it,no way of proving it.





Aside from the fact that everything is hypothetical in terms of bunkai, I suppose that the old masters captured their enemies and pummelled them in a variety of different ways in order to find out exactly how to break bones and stop there heart with a single punch!!! You can just imagine:

Uber Master: You dead yet?
Unfortunate Captured Person: No you didn’t quite get me.
Uber Master: How about that?
Unfortunate Captured Person: Little to the left!
Uber Master: How about that?
Unfortunate Captured Person: Ow that hurt!

These days we’d have to use monkeys or something; except they’d probably kick our arses.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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