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#241656 - 03/29/06 03:11 PM Bunkai deadliness?
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
As most of us know here bunkai is not for sparring,it is meant to be an attack ender right from the start.
In some kata there are neck,arm,or other bone breaks. There are strikes to vital areas that would kill too,but isn't it just all hypothetical?
There's no way of testing it,no way of proving it.
Ed has been looking for a way to test these theories through computer animation,but it still would be hypothetical,right?
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#241657 - 03/29/06 03:23 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
It might be possible to extrapolate the possible severity of injury based on the rate and amount of injury during controlled training. If someone had statistics they might be able to devise a model even if the injuries were accidental.

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#241658 - 03/29/06 03:42 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Brian,

On the whole there are very few who really want to go all out on most karate technique applications because they don't want to hurt their partner, or suffere those effects themselves.

Rightly techniques that can break and/or dislocate are no fun to experience. In fact most times you're probably talking about types of dislocations, breaks are potentially there but require very specific conditions, imo.

The neck of course is an exception, its susceptable to a very wide range of strikes and other potentially fatal occurances, as if pain and KO's were not enough, or even the manipulation of the carotid sinus stopping the heart beating for the KO, etc.

But proof of the results of impact from technique application isn't really an issue. Almost anually somebody gets hit in the chest by a baseball and dies almost instantly as they can't get the appropriate medical attention soon enough. The mechanism is that they were struck in the chest as their t-wave tops (only 1/50,000 th of a second), and their heart stops beating. Serindipity or not a strike could potentially do the same thing.

These things can't reliabily be modeled, the individual varilables are too great to do more than crudely approximate.

Reasonable people will understand some of the risks behind kata application and train appropriately. And yes, in use extreme results may occur for a wide range or reasons (serindipity, a persons medical condition, or other factors.

But the reason to use the kata technque application should override such occurances.

There is just technique and application potential, imo.
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#241659 - 03/29/06 03:56 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Just an observation but, whatever "deadliness" exists, isn't it sort of irrelevent to bunkai and more related to the more or less basic technique the bunkai sets up?

I'm probably not saying this real well, but bunkai seems (at the bottom line) to take "weird attack situations" and sort of resolve them by teaching you to work your way to the point that you deliver what is pretty much just a basic technique.

At the end... where you deliver the finishing technique... it's still, as an example, just a knife hand strike to the throat, or an elbow strike to the back of the neck. Or a stomp, kick, punch or whatever.

Maybe it would be simpler just to analyze the "deadliness" of certain techniques. If they occur in a bunkai - they are still no more or less deadly.

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#241660 - 03/29/06 04:06 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
am I? I think I asked sometime before if there were software that models body dynamics.

but similar subjects you bring up have been talked about before. I think last summer, when we had discussions about how many psi of pressure would it take to break a rib or something.

we came up with you have to punch hard enough to break about 4 x 1/2" pine boards to equal breaking a rib. thats a fair enough test without having to actually break someone's rib.

you could do the same type of test for an elbow break. Find out what diameter dowel is equivalent strength as an elbow. wrap it in padding to simulate flesh and to protect your arm, and attempt to snap it with an elbow break. I haven't tried this, but it would be a good enough test for me.

After you know that, next time you are doing bunkai with a partner, be aware of what force would be needed if it were real.

other than that, it's just faith....and hopefully, you'll never have to actually test it.

btw, medical sources have maximum stress measurements of human bones and joints.

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#241661 - 03/29/06 04:12 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Thanks for all the quick replies.

It is faith,but some things are obvious too. If I hit you between the asophagus and your neck from the side just right with a spear hand do I really need to contemplate what might happen?
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#241662 - 03/29/06 04:29 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
If you were the "Myth Buster" crew, you'd probably buy a dressed out pig see what it actually takes to "kill it again".

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#241663 - 03/29/06 04:36 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Interesting post this, whilst its not plesant looking at real situations (ie under stress, admitidly non/little trained people) then its obvious that in some cases extreme levels of violence CAN cause severe injury.

So looking at a conditioned, skilled karateka makes things a little different IMO, the big difference as I see it is expierience, accuracy, conditioning and knowledge of anatomy.

With that in mind im fairly convinced that extreme damage could be caused if we so wished, fairly easily - but our training makes us not to wish this to happen but to resolve things in the most peaceful and appropiate of ways.

but its the application thats the real skill, under fire.....this is where most fail, including me at times
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#241664 - 03/29/06 05:14 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Joss]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
myth busters is one of my favorite shows. I wrote to them a few months ago giving them suggestions on how to go about investigating the myth of 'one punch, one kill'. I suggested they bring an impact pad measuring force to a Kimura Shukokai head instructor and use that reading as their baseline.

suggestions for the show are royalty-free, so if you ever see that episode...know that you heard it here first

btw, I think their results would be inconclusive as in: possible, but unlikely.

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#241665 - 03/30/06 06:16 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Lets be simple on this, the majority of our 'effective' strikes are practised in a dojo under relativly controled circumstances.

Real situations involve a whole load of other dynamics and stress, all against our effectiveness.

As a whole I keep it simple, strike hard, or lock someone up quickly - dependant on situation, with that in mind im fairly sure that a half decent trained karateka could then deliver alot of damage if needed, but its about survival at the front end and escape.

Now I have trained with a few 'deadly' karateka in my time and im under no illusion that they could proberly deliver severe damage from the first movement, however all of these people have over 30 years training and can be considered very special.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241666 - 03/30/06 07:32 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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so about 30 years is the general line between being deadly vs....hurtful?

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#241667 - 03/30/06 07:39 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I always ponder if the "finishing blow" in karate is something other than a killing movement. Otherwise, there's no real reason to keep beating the corpse...

I always studied bunkai as "options" from the "standard technique"... in case the 32 killing movements of the initial move wasn't enough to finish this beast...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#241668 - 03/30/06 08:03 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL,

not just time im afraid but it also seems to be directly related to the said old timers expierience and training methods.........

Nothings fixed of course but 30 years seems about right if they started young!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241669 - 03/30/06 10:27 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I personally think a lot of the said "old timers" learned by a lot of trial and error as well. Number one everybody does not have the potential to achieve the same level of effectiveness. I feel with decent athletic ability and a good amount of talent and fighting skills and dedication it takes about 3 years to become effective and 10 years to reach this "deadly" skill. However, the deadliness in my eyes is not some mystical power that allows you to take an opponent out with one hit, but rather a systematic way of defending through offense in which you control your distance with body movement and combination striking, close the distance, unbalance, damage, and control your opponent through strikes, sweeps, locks, and borrowing balance and finally put your opponent on the ground to deliver debilitating attacks via strikes, locks, or chokes. Ikken hissatu refers to the finishing strike in a combination of attacks.

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#241670 - 03/30/06 10:35 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think a karateka 'effectivness' has many, many factors much as you say.

10 years hard training does alot for most, but life expierience cant be snatched and simply comes with time....

The main two karateka im thinking of are both 60 plus and very much capable, however I persoanlly think men aged around 40-50 could be considered in their karate 'prime', ie with 30 years plus training behind them.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241671 - 03/30/06 05:16 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
McSensei Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Not long to go then, eh Jim?
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#241672 - 03/30/06 09:23 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You're exactly right... every factor you are studying has a purpose in the karate technique, and collectively they are the "deadly skills" that we all study.

I was probably in my best physical shape with 10 years training. I was in my best "fighting shape" with about 20 years training. My skills were excellent through my 30 years of training, and with 40 years, I understand all the previous training.

When I trained my senior student, I told him on many occasions "you won't understand this for at least 10 years", and he has come back to me repeatedly and said that as he was training, the light would come on and he'd understand completely something we trained in years ago. The only thing that beats experience is learning from it, and having the background to have had the lessons taught to you

.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#241673 - 03/31/06 06:05 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: McSensei]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
what till your 60 mate, nah not long
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241674 - 03/31/06 06:09 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: wristtwister]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think were all on the same page on this one, perhaps different paragraphs!

Whilst i agree that 10 years as a guide is good and many are able to perform things well, the real understanding of application IMO comes later, after 21 years of training I still feel like a baby and see alot of learning ahead.

Knowledge is power after all........

This reminds me of something that I have been told about alot and witnessed - old mans karate, economic, effective and discreet something that matures like good cheese........

Also whilst 'fighting' ability is often percieved to be in the toe to toe format (often competative), perhaps the real ability is to defend oneself on the street - physical ability and conditioning is important but proberly not the absolute primary factor in reality???
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241675 - 04/01/06 07:13 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Quote:

As most of us know here bunkai is not for sparring,it is meant to be an attack ender right from the start. In some kata there are neck,arm,or other bone breaks. There are strikes to vital areas that would kill too,but isn't it just all hypothetical? There's no way of testing it,no way of proving it.





Aside from the fact that everything is hypothetical in terms of bunkai, I suppose that the old masters captured their enemies and pummelled them in a variety of different ways in order to find out exactly how to break bones and stop there heart with a single punch!!! You can just imagine:

Uber Master: You dead yet?
Unfortunate Captured Person: No you didn’t quite get me.
Uber Master: How about that?
Unfortunate Captured Person: Little to the left!
Uber Master: How about that?
Unfortunate Captured Person: Ow that hurt!

These days we’d have to use monkeys or something; except they’d probably kick our arses.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241676 - 04/02/06 12:34 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
founderoffriedfish,

Whilst I appreciate your humor I would like to stick to real theories with fighting applications.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#241677 - 04/02/06 08:48 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Well you could get hold of a few human corpses and test out your theories. People do sometimes leave their bodies for scientific research.

Surely it is worth asking whether it is at all likely that the old masters who created kata would have experimented on live or dead humans. Personally I don’t think either of these cases is very likely but I could be wrong.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241678 - 04/02/06 08:59 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

am I? I think I asked sometime before if there were software that models body dynamics.

but similar subjects you bring up have been talked about before. I think last summer, when we had discussions about how many psi of pressure would it take to break a rib or something.

we came up with you have to punch hard enough to break about 4 x 1/2" pine boards to equal breaking a rib. thats a fair enough test without having to actually break someone's rib.

you could do the same type of test for an elbow break. Find out what diameter dowel is equivalent strength as an elbow. wrap it in padding to simulate flesh and to protect your arm, and attempt to snap it with an elbow break. I haven't tried this, but it would be a good enough test for me.

After you know that, next time you are doing bunkai with a partner, be aware of what force would be needed if it were real.

other than that, it's just faith....and hopefully, you'll never have to actually test it.

btw, medical sources have maximum stress measurements of human bones and joints.




Just in case anyone missed it:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15786375/an/0/page/22#15786375
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#241679 - 04/02/06 10:06 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
It might be assumed effective techniques were developed in one single generation. I imagine it to be a constantly evolving process.

Think of all the adjustments, tweeks, deliberate and/or consequential changes to a technique over several generations of acually using them - full power, full force, intent to kill in a war setting. It's a very different mindset that I only know enough to realize I can't even imagine about. As passed down, each generation wants to give their next the best of what they've learned and improved upon. next gen does the same and so on.

Your tounge in cheek example is not so outrageous, but the timescale spans over centuries not a single battle. If you look into the fairly well documented history of the development of warfare during the middle ages in various parts of Europe, you'll see how weapons/techniques/tactics progress in blended stages.

H2H development should be no different- I think it's reasonable to assume it develops along the same learning and adjustments curve in any part of the world....the needs dictated the skill. The needs were to defeat as fast as possible.

Melee combat on ancient battlefields is a fact. people East and West DID fight with swords at one time...they DID need to know how to kill someone in the quickest amount of time to lesson chances of being skewered from behind as oppossed to trying to 'tap' their opponent out on the ground.

If history is not ignored, it is a certainty that men in all 'civilized' societies had training methods and a knowledge base of methods.
I believe in it's beginning stages, efficiency of training those methods of quick killing was formed into kata as a recallable and consistant training tool.

The methods and needs of the warrior gradually changed with technology...calling for less and less H2H for military purposes...meanwhile, some ex-military guards employed to protect a temple or castle (still talking generically East or West), incorporate their training, but choose not to train the battlefield murder-moves and instead focus more on defense, control and restraint...and perhaps even methods of non-lethal crowd control. Of course they still trained and passed on the battlefield knowledge, but maybe it gets transfered to less and less people after each generation.

More centuries pass with kata being reshaped along the way to the needs of the people in occupation to use them as a training method.

Eventually, kata goes thru another revolution of changes, this time with civillian self-defense in mind. The people using and training this way, over time, over generations form the practice of kata to their self-defence needs.

In the line of thinking that I'm following, Kata went thru yet another series of 'adjustments for the needs' when introduced as a fairly safe practice of physical fitness and rudamentary skill building to the teenagers of well-off families in schools which were more than likely destined to become officers/soldiers during the first high-technology driven war...WWII. The history from there is more or less documented.

A possible way I see kata developing into, is for a practice of well-being, moving meditation, perhaps even 2-person moving meditation. The threat, to justify inordinate amounts of time practicing self-defense, is just not there for most people in suburbia during the 21st century. A bit of street smarts, awareness and technology(cell phones, protection devices,etc) is sufficient enough for more than most.

If kata practice moves that way for the mainstream, fine ...but it doesn't need to be justified by ignoring kata's original very probable battlefield intent.

It's almost like people need to justify in their minds what they do, even if that involves ignoring sensability.

I understand the motivation...the market is heading towards well-being, not self-defense - whoever comes up with a good sounding theory as to how and why kata should be practiced for well-being, gets to open the first book and gym-chain. going a step further to seal the deal would be to come up with a theory of kata's original intent of well-being...eons ago...predating it's Martial training use. It's romantic and it would sell. Actually, I'd like to believe it myself - it would give a nice 'full circle' in people's minds on the history of kata practice.

It's not a bad thing...everyone has a right to make a living. It is what it is.

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#241680 - 04/04/06 07:17 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
I suppose you could get some soldiers together and get them to make their own kata for killing people h2h and compare it to karate kata. But if you are saying that the kata themselves have changed over time then this is all just speculation, “hypothetical” as Victor originally said.

Quote:

I would like to stick to real theories with fighting applications




… said Victor. By real I assume he meant testable… I could be wrong though.

Hmmm… just to recap we need some soldiers and some corpses… why not visit a war zone somewhere? (not me though)

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241681 - 04/04/06 08:29 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
nope. don't need to time-travel to a H2H battlefield with corpses...just find a good instructor to convince you. We can only find something when we know what it is we are looking for. either we know it when we see it, or we don't and pass it by.
There is an element of testability but there is also an element of faith. and by the use of the word faith, I don't necessarily mean spiritual, sipping kool-aid, or sensei-envy. I mean the kind of faith that when you see/feel something working you have a eurika moment and honestly say to yourself...now THAT makes sense to me.

An application in which someone has faith, confidence and practice in is the most effective. whether your app is ending confrontations or in new-age well-being methods (not me though), if its effective for you, then you are accomplishing what you set out to do.

The only time people need OTHER people to believe in what they are doing, is when they are selling it. Thats why the best stuff is the hardest to find and the crap is in the mall.

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#241682 - 04/05/06 04:49 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think we have to accept certain things, as they are presented to us and as we test them for ourselves.

For example, for years I was told that reverse punch to the solar plexes was deadly (Im sure it could be), first time I 'used' one all out, the guy said good shot and hit me back - this was in a very hard contact training session, I thought my punch was weak from then on and that my karate instructor was talking rubbish (with hindsight he was about many things!).

Roll on about a year and in a competition I landed the exact same punch, difference was I had evaded a front kick and pulled the opponent in slightly, he had turned a little and I hit him in the side, lower rib area, about 50% power I guess - almost a snap reverse punch,

He went down like a sack of spuds and couldnt continue, I was reliably informed later that he had suffered 2 cracked ribs (and he was a fit, capable man), all of a sudden reverse punch had more meaning........

poor examples Martin but i hope you see my point.

Our training centres around freeplay for kumite, against common methods of assault, this helps us see that our defense is 'effective', well effective enough to accept and move on.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241683 - 04/05/06 02:59 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
So we are back to either personal truth and/or your sensei’s personal truth. So the answer is yes, it is all hypothetical.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241684 - 04/05/06 03:36 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Martin with respect I think you are making to much of this aspect of the arts, of course certain things are hypothetical, to test them could be very unplesant.

Add to this the chaos of a real encounter, whilst science and philosophy can show us many things, who really knows the outcome......

So we relie on our own perspectives/expierience, as you say personal truths - my truth is that I am sure many karateka can deliver much damage and held within the kata is deadly (as well as healing), ancient knowledge that should be studied with respect and preservered for future generations.

It would seem that I am not alone as many of my Seniors, whom I respect much for their expeirience and ability seem to agree, and IMO the history avaliable supports this view.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241685 - 04/05/06 04:44 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
technically yes, it's all hypothetical...till you ask someone who knows what they are doing to show you...then it won't feel hypothetical.

I once asked an instructor to show me what he was talking about on a particular sequence...and perhaps senseing a bit of reluctance to believe that it could work on my part, he proceeded to 'show' me at full speed...

At first, it's not the technique or theory you have faith in, it's having faith in the instructor....nothing hypothetical about that. Either we find someone who can open our eyes....or we pass it by.

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#241686 - 04/05/06 07:14 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
So it’s hypothetical, but it doesn’t feel hypothetical, loads of people agree it doesn’t feel hypothetical, now and throughout documented history. Sounds like a religion. See my very first post…

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15831922/an/0/page/0#15831922
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Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241687 - 04/05/06 07:32 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Guns don't kill people, people do. Karate does not kill people, people do. Karate is designed to give people a chance and put them in a good position to be successful, whatever your idea of success in a fight is. Guns are generally considered deadly. However not everyone who is shot dies. Not everyone who is shot center mass dies. Does that mean guns are not deadly? A gun's deadliness increases with the skill of the shooter. Someone with a high level of skill with a gun is very deadly with a gun, and is also the safest person with a gun not only for others, but for themselves. An unskilled person with a gun is dangerous for them and for you. The same is true of karate. Karate is used to develop attributes needed in a phsycial altercation. Once those attributes are obtained the karateka drills them so he/she can respond in specific ways to physical violence. Given the karateka is able he can respond to physical violence better than he/she would with no training. The success of the responce is completely up to the ability of the karateka. Really, this stuff is really simple, if you strike a person hard enough, multiple times, in the right spot/s THEY WILL DIE. Now, do you have the ability to do such is the question. Does anyone question whether this is true or not? Just like with a gun, hypothetically if I shoot a person in specific spots they will die. However, the only way to test this is to shoot and kill someone. Keep training, fight hard, and let God sort'em out.

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#241688 - 04/05/06 09:27 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
and you make your point using a hypothetical conversation manufactured to demonstrate your own point?

You use the word religion like it's a bad thing. whats wrong with having faith in something? do you have faith in your 5 senses? do you have faith in pain or pleasure?
I have faith in being shown a movement, then feeling the pain of it applied...it doesn't take much leap of faith to realize: "hey, that was only half speed ...if it was done full power, I'd be out. -that might be a good one to have down cold in case I'm ever attacked."

I suspect you've only ever trained with the one-step kumite-like training interpretations of kata...the stuff that wasn't meant for application - they are training drills. Useful in their own right for their own reasons. But the instructors you might have been exposed to told you "these are the effective real-life self-defense movements." ...so at first you believe it, then after years it dawns on you that they are useless for that claim. You get frustrated and come up with your own. Failing that, you question the very idea of kata itself with philosophical suppositions. ...in varying degree, many have probably gone thru kata-identity crisis.

There are non-commercial things out there that are being taught for free, not on DVD, not in books, not at a shaolin temple 6-month tour, not at an Okinawa visit during shore-leave. stuff thats not necessarily private or secret either, just stuff that is subtle. people miss it because they want the right now, gimme gimme gimme.

How many people do you know that would stick with something knowing full well in advance that it may take 5 or 10 years in order to notice improvement? not many. talk about faith. but you know something? Those are the only ones who can really tap dry what a kata has to offer.
stand in front and train with a person of this calibre sometime, nothing hypothetical about it.

I'm not suggesting I'm anywhere near there...but I've seen enough thru the years to know it IS there.

maybe you are specifically choosing to not look for self-defense techniques in kata because you believe you can come up with a new-age use for kata and hence, a product. Is that fair to say or am I out of line?

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#241689 - 04/06/06 12:33 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shihan_chris Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 64
You can say that a ridge hand from hell would only hypothetically break somebody's neck, or that a good wrist lock would only hypothetically break somebody's wrist or that sticking your thumbs into somebody's eyes would only hypothetically hurt them or that a punch with a thousand
p.s.i. would only hypothetically break a rib or rupture a bladder or that pushing somebody's chin down and trying to turn their head around 360 degrees would only hypothetically break their neck.........

but the fact of the matter is, if the moves are realistic and you're not holding a crystal ball trying to steal somebody's "chi" or "ki" it's usually pretty easy to tell if a move would work or not. if you doubt a move or don't see how it could work, then find out. just make sure that the person showing you is profficient enough not to either kill, or injure you, or show u a bunch of BS that will get u killed.

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#241690 - 04/06/06 11:08 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shihan_chris]
GuitarNinja Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
Indeed, i have faith in all my techniques, they dont always work... thats not the techniques fault. I suffered kata identity crisis, lol... im just glad I started questioning the techniques very early in my training.

As far as deadliness goes, isnt that all apart of the mental attitude ?? Seriously though, the concept of your whole energy -- mind, body, spirit -- going into a technique , isnt that what makes it the deadly technique, as opposed to someone just doing a complicated hand waving gesture ?

Im sure if I were to grab on to someones head with the intent of snapping the neck (one hand on top of head, other on jaw) and perform the standard "karate punch" ... it would most definately break that persons neck... (if it doesnt, then my defense will just continue) If you doubt your technique effectiveness, you will hesitate and die... life is no joke, knives, guns, gangs, blab blah, actually exist ... the world really is filled with evil...

Whoever said if you doubt bunkai, play around with someone who is a master at bunkai application in free sparring, I agree totally... it will open your mind so far, you wont need to worry about emptying your cup because you wont ever fill it after that.
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#241691 - 04/06/06 01:12 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
on the other hand....there are limits one should observe to find a qualified instructor:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/201892/1/.html

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#241692 - 04/06/06 04:30 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: GuitarNinja]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I believe that there are 6 types of techniques in karate to try to control the adversary.
Dislocations, hurting or rupture of muscles and tendons, sealing the breath, attacking veins and artories, attacking chi points, throws.
The point of karate was in my opinion not about deadliness but about overcoming and controlling your adversary. I ken no kon means train the fist to penetrate the spirit.
However certain techniques on certain area's can result into death. Much howevere also depends on the mental and physical state of your adversary.
I do believe howevere more in the principle of I ken no kon.


Edited by CVV (04/06/06 04:31 PM)

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#241693 - 04/09/06 10:44 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
There is nothing wrong with having faith in something, although I do think that this could be made more transparent to beginners. I’m sure that many techniques from kata are quite capable of causing someone serious injury and in some cases death. However, if you are facing an “unwilling” opponent then this becomes exponentially more difficult to achieve. As you’ve said, one step kumite interpretations of kata are not useful in this respect but that is not the reason I don’t think kata contain deadly techniques. The reason I don’t think that kata contain deadly techniques is that this is a hypothesis that can’t be tested. Why should I commit myself to something that can’t be properly tested? What’s more if I were to make a kata that did contain obvious methods of maiming or killing (attacking obvious weak spots like eyes, neck, wrist, fingers, groin) I guarantee it would not be stylistically similar to karate kata. If you think about it, there might be a reason that “many have probably gone thru kata-identity crisis.” and this reason might also explain why it takes so long to make kata “work” in such a way that the discussed hypothesis starts to seem non-hypothetical. I do not choose not to look for self defence or deadly techniques in kata, I choose to look for what is there. The fact I have come up with a “product” based on what I have found does not detract from my goal of objectively studying kata. Hence the reason I did not come onto this site proclaiming that double hand grappling was the solution to everything.

Martin
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Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241694 - 04/09/06 05:27 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

What’s more if I were to make a kata that did contain obvious methods of maiming or killing (attacking obvious weak spots like eyes, neck, wrist, fingers, groin) I guarantee it would not be stylistically similar to karate kata.




I find this very strange. When I look at kata and train it and investigate it or see people investigate or demonstrate classical kata (handed down to us from the 19th and early 20th century), I see nothing but "methods of maiming or killing (attacking obvious weak spots like eyes, neck, wrist, fingers, groin)".
I see this not only in style I study (goju-ryu) but also in other styles (Okinawan or Japanese).
Because a movement is standardized does not mean that the application is standardized. Chojun Miyagi said on the matter of bunkai 'think, you will figure it out yourselve'. The reason why there are so many versions of bassai or sesan is because people think. There is not one answer to a technique in a kata. This is the genuis of karate. For me that's why it is an art.

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#241695 - 04/10/06 04:36 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
"The hypothesis can't be tested"

Geez...really? Common sense can be tested...apparently. How much brain stew do you have to eat to 'figure out' what would probably happen if......? How about what the people who made the kata? Were they just messing with the future generations when they passed it on?

What type of kool-aid do you drink man?
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#241696 - 04/10/06 07:06 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Brian, unfortunately your references to “kool-aid” are lost on me, presumably you have formed some sort of prejudicial opinion of me, I don’t know. What I do know is that your grammar has prevented me from understanding you. Perhaps you could rephrase the following sentence? “How about what the people who made the kata?” Also perhaps I should have said “The reason I don’t think that kata contain deadly techniques is that this is a hypothesis that can’t be PROPERLY tested.” But as you’ve already pointed out “There's no way of testing it,no way of proving it.”

CVV

Quote:

I find this very strange.




Yes it is strange isn’t it.

Martin
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Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241697 - 04/10/06 11:43 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
brian, remember the forum rules of engagement they put up on bullshido? one of them was (paraphrase): 'When you are loosing an argument, attack their grammer.' lol

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#241698 - 04/10/06 11:59 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
LOL Ed, I forgot about that rule,but hey,I'm from Arkansas. We are permitted and expected to have bad grammar. One things for sure though. We know what kata are for,lol. sip,sip,sip...

FOFF,
Yes.
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#241699 - 04/11/06 08:59 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
PegLeg2 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 60
If you ask me its all just prancin around anyway. Fighting is fighting. If you got to ask what it is its a waste of my time.

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#241700 - 04/11/06 09:26 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: PegLeg2]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Nobody asked you pegnerd. Please exit the kata forum before it get's ugly.
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#241701 - 04/11/06 09:59 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
jees here we go

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#241702 - 04/11/06 10:05 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: PegLeg2]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
If its not you cup of tea just move on to another forum.

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#241703 - 04/11/06 10:37 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
'Also perhaps I should have said “The reason I don’t think that kata contain deadly techniques is that this is a hypothesis that can’t be PROPERLY tested.”'

There is no logical causitive connection between not being able to test a hypothesis and its being true or false. Your statement says that since "Hypothesis X" can't be properly tested - then "Hypothesis X" must be false. That is absurd. It would be equally absurd to insist that all hypothesies that can't be tested must be true.

In the absence of a "proper" test, perhaps you might participate in an imaginative - approximation of testing. You are on record as saying that bunkai are not deadly. Please consider allowing this to be tested on you by one of the senior karateka here. I'm not suggesting an actual test; only that you imagine submitting to the bunkai with only the protection you've stated: that the hypothesis can't be properly test so you must be safe. The reluctance to participate in this might be a pretty honest reality check.

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#241704 - 04/11/06 10:46 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Joss]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
in simple terms,

let me poke you in the eye, really hard to see if it hurts alot? OK

No i didnt think so...................

Whilst Martin brings alot of thought to this discussion I am starting to doubt his reasons for doing so, we all have our expierience of course........

Recently I was forced to use the first movements from seisan(although i didnt realise it at the time), uchi uke - reverse punch in simple terms, in a self defence situation.

it worked, im a believer............
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#241705 - 04/11/06 04:32 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: shoshinkan]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
Apologies for criticizing grammar but I really did not understand what was written. Obviously I need to become more familiar with the way people write in Arkansas. I appear to have misstated my point. Of course there is no logical causative connection between not being able to test a hypothesis and its being true or false. However, why should I commit myself to something that can’t be properly tested? The fact that an application of a kata could be deadly does not mean that is what the kata is describing. If you are facing an “unwilling” opponent then making it deadly becomes exponentially more difficult to achieve. Furthermore if I were to make a kata that did contain obvious methods of maiming or killing (attacking obvious weak spots like eyes, neck, wrist, fingers, groin) I guarantee it would not be stylistically similar to karate kata and I don’t think poking anyone in the eye is going to change that.

Martin
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Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241706 - 04/11/06 04:50 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Thats a good idea...I'd be interested in a kata or even one step sequence you come up with. see the self-defense forum sticky for common types of attacks to come up with defenses for.
Then try your defense against a partner and imagine if it would work or not (without actually hurting each other). Then when you have a good one, note your movements and try it solo. record that movement and lets have a look.

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#241707 - 04/11/06 08:42 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Ed_Morris]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
I was thinking of doing one for self defence and one for killing/laming people.

By the way, if anyone is reading this who thinks that kata are a waste of time for learning either of those two things, I agree. I’m only doing it as an experiment to compare with karate kata and have no real intention of using them as teaching aids.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241708 - 04/12/06 07:43 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
.... even when they work.... obviously.

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#241709 - 04/12/06 07:51 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
and training non-SD wrist grappling to drumbeat using suppossedly useless kata, isn't a waste of time... o...k.

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#241710 - 04/12/06 07:54 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Oh... and by the way... perhaps we might all agree that a proper carotid or airway rear choke is a DEADLY technique, simply by definition. It is also one of our school's bunkai results from Wansu kata. Ergo - deadly bunkai.

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#241711 - 04/12/06 01:28 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Joss]
founderofryoute1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Birmingham, UK
All bitching aside, I’ll let you know when I’m done.

Martin
_________________________
Martin Clewett - Ryoute - Double Hand Grappling, Grip Grappling and Double Circle Grappling

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#241712 - 04/12/06 02:04 PM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: founderofryoute1]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Just don't use all the toilet paper.

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#241713 - 04/13/06 12:11 AM Re: Bunkai deadliness? [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Martin,
Whatever floats your boat homeskillet.


In seiunchin,the third set of movements. Attack is from the front,be it a punch or grab which goes into a wristlock brought down to waist level and attacker is put to the ground.This is followed by a shuto to the temple,carotid,or various targets in that area followed by a knifehand 'stab' to the larnyx,but I suppose this only tickles.

Sanseru, From punch or grab(however you get the arm) Elbow smash to the back of attackers elbow while pulling inward,followed by colon punch,and then a sidekick to the knee. Not deadly at all.
Should I even get into all the strikes in tensho,lol?
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