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#240139 - 03/20/06 09:14 PM What I hate about groundfighting...
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast. I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.

I took this class, among other reasons, to help get me in shape. But I feel like I need to join Gold's Gym or something to ever achieve success.

Thoughts?
_________________________
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#240140 - 03/20/06 09:24 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
ScottO Offline
de riddim master

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
Quote:

...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast. I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.

I took this class, among other reasons, to help get me in shape. But I feel like I need to join Gold's Gym or something to ever achieve success.

Thoughts?





To get in shape, join a gym. That's what they specialize in. If you want to defend yourself, join a Martial Art. Or buy a gun, I don't know.

If the same guy keeps getting nosebleeds, it's either his fault or he's working out with the same person. You have got to have control when grappling/groundfighting. I would hate going to class if I always got hurt. It actually IS possible to grapple realisticly without killing each other. You should suggest to the instructor to enforce this law more. I'm not saying he's not doing a good job, he sounds like an excellent instructor.

Just clear something up...when you say you start out in randori...I thought floorfighting is when one person is on the ground and the other isn't. Grappling is when they're both on the ground. Perhaps grappling is the same as groundfighting. Oh well, screw the formalities (I'm sure I'm going to be flamed for this )


Why would a wrestler clean house? He wrestles. I'm sure he is a good wrestler....but if we're talking about you training self-defense groundfighting....it's just two seperate things.
_________________________
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#240141 - 03/21/06 07:21 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast.




It all comes down to the coach/instructor. It is HIS responsibility to get certain points across to all who are training. He should work to demonstrate the necessary energy needed during specific training modalities. He should also be knowledgeable enough to create certain specific drills and to explain how and why itís important to dial the energy up and down during training.

Perhaps your coach just doesnít have enough experience coaching.

Quote:


I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.




First of all, you donít HAVE to train and roll with people who you don't trust! In order to have a great experience that wonít lead to burn-out and injury, you have to have a certain amount of trust in your training partners. Everyone should know that they are there not ONLY to improve themselves but to improve their partners as well. This isnít done when theyíre always dominating every facet of the training. But again, I have to place the blame here on the coach at some point.

Quote:


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.




I think youíre giving your instructor too much credit. Itís his responsibility to create a safe and productive training environment. Does it seem like he has achieved this in YOUR opinion? Iíd say not, based on what I've read in your post.

A good coach will put people of similar ages, sizes and experience levels together during training drills, etc. He will allow those who want to roll with greater intensity to pair up with each other. That way everyone improves and everyone is working with people who are "on the same page" as they are.

During rolling of course, EVERYONE can roll with whomever they want. But that's always YOUR choice (with whom you roll).



-John

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#240142 - 03/21/06 05:23 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
This is a common problem with instructors who are underqualified or underconfident (regardless of rank) to teach grappling.

I have seen many multi degree back belts/ red & white belts in traditional JJ who, although have many years of practice doing high speed, advanced newaza techniques for demo purposes were literally white belts when it came to rolling and actually playing the game.

Anyone who wants to teach groundfighting in my opinion, should be able to get on the mat and roll with every one of his newer students and be able to handle them all with technique, without hurting them. I feel pretty strongly about this.

An instructor that won't do this...or can't do this, will probably run classes where students routinely get injured. It will happen because the instructor will not have the confidence or competence to teach and show technique without resorting to physical attributes and students will get the message through his inattention that going full blast is how to train.
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#240143 - 03/21/06 07:08 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fletch1]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I haven't really got anything to add except to say what it is about groundfighting that I hate.
It's so bloody knackering.
I've been doing JJJ for a few months now that has a Russian, Greco-Roman wrestling champion as a co-instructor so we do a fair bit on the ground.
I just wish to state for the record that I have the utmost respect for the level of fitness needed to partake in this type of MA.
I thought I was fit till I started this groundfighting lark, now I feel like I ain't been off the sofa for the last 5 years.
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#240144 - 03/21/06 11:44 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast. I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.

I took this class, among other reasons, to help get me in shape. But I feel like I need to join Gold's Gym or something to ever achieve success.

Thoughts?




Be grateful. It sounds like a great environment to make real improvement.

Tough it out. You'll be glad you did.
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#240145 - 03/22/06 12:21 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: kusojiji]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Since I know all the people involved I'll chime in. I understand your frustration Sub. The truth is you could be injured. Stuff happens. I don't think the rate of injury is higher at our club than others. I spoke with our injured friend, after a while he acknowledged that he contributed to his situation. The desire to come out on top can get the best of all of us. As a new club in a new location we have alot of new guys. As I have rolled with the brown belts I find they are much more relaxed and aren't out to crush others. Alot of the new guys are big and strong. I have had to ask myself the same questions as you,like, "What the hell was I thinking". I'm not sure what to tell you other than that.
To John and Fletch,the teacher is experienced and capable. He has been coaching for 40 years. He has coached olympic judoka in Colorado Springs, and world champion sambo players. Thats not to say he could not be overlooking something when it comes to randori or partner selection. Both MattJ and Razorfoot have trained with him at my house. He has also authored 3 books that I know of, one specifically on coaching. Class is well ordered yet flexible with lost of reps ending with 30 minutes of rolling/randori. I have had minor injuries but none that were beyond what could be expected.OK I didn't expect to tear off a toenail but thats a different story. As I said earlier, "I hear you". And to be honest I don't know how long I will continue. It is hard as hell. I'm a gynormous wussy. There are real risks, and real rewards. I'm on the fence. Not because of the quality of instruction but the sincere question wheither I have it in me.

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#240146 - 03/22/06 12:14 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: oldman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Yes, that instructor seemed very competent to me. Injuries are bound to happen in martial arts practice. Last night in my ground fighting class, I got kneed in the face and almost hyperextended my right knee. I also elbowed 1 guy in the face and eyegouged another. All were accidents. All preventable? Don't know. Stuff happens.

Coming from a stand-up prespective, I agree that groundfighting is hard. And it does suck to get tapped out. But there is only one way to learn.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#240147 - 03/22/06 12:44 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think there is no better way to get in shape and burn calories then carry someone else weight or have them carry yours. Its done almost unconcisously because of the effort required in this discipline. of course weigh training and running helps tone and add to overall conditioning.

As for a wrestler cleaning house it depends on his experince of course if he is a high school or College Champion and you are 3-6 month old JJ r judo player you shouldn't and won't be able to compete.

But with same experinces a wrestler makes alot of mistake shooting and thinking hes safe because hes on top or on his stomach. He can be submitted easily because he is not trained to look or defend such moves.

But there is no doubt a well trained wrestler is hard to deal with stamina and power of move wise espeicailly if he in the mount. I find they almost give up once mounted because they are trying to defend against the pin, and we want their back!!!

Anyway keep training and be safe use technique rather then strength because that what stops you from hurting each other, the method of applying the techniques are designed to give you time to tap out. Like most MAs injuries can occur at any level but mostly in the lower kyu level because they don't know how to control their technique and still be effective.

As for fitness JJ/Judo/Wrestling gives you great level of fitness then just weight lifting, both would help overall.
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DBAckerson

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#240148 - 03/23/06 04:58 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
One time I was up in K.C. and I was working some ground stuff in this guys basement. We were just practicing and I "accidentally" elbowed him in the face. I said I was sorry and he agreed.

When you train,injuries happen,it's just a part of it and you have to decide for yourself if it's worth it to you to continue.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#240149 - 03/23/06 08:54 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: oldman]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Minor injuries are just part of MA. No argument at all.

But I'm in the same situation as Oldman as far as heavy mat work goes. The risk of more serious injuries gets to be a real concern with age (56+). Then you find yourself wondering, seriously, if it is worth it... but still not being willing to "wuss out".

It makes me look deeper into what I want out of MA when I wonder if I see walls I can no longer climb over. No matter how hard I train, my joints and ligaments are not going to grow better.

There's a paradox there when you discover that you're getting hurt maybe every tenth time you train - and you train to be able to not get hurt in a one in a thousand self defense situation.

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#240150 - 03/24/06 02:22 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Joss]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
A lot of good stuff here. I was a wrestler and enjoyed it thoroughly. Without being on a mat in over 16 years when joining martial arts I still did very well until other's techniques exceeded mine and then I started to hate it. I opted out of going to these classes as I almost had a fear inside me ... and ego was a hinderance as I did not like to accept loosing. Then one day I said screw it and I'm going to do it and now I find myself loving it and am training to compete.

Injuries do happen. I have several injuries from ground work such as the crushed vertebrea in my neck and the torn distal bicep tendon. These were all my own fault as I pushed the limits and I can't blame anybody else for them. And just a couple of weeks ago I broke my little toe just doing shrimping exercises across the floor. Not to mention my knee, though the torn ACL is a hyperextension from stand up ... but still affects my ground work. Things happen and you have to accept them and learn from them. I know I won't be doing a few things like that again. Some times I go too hard and this is where things can go wrong. Rarely ... if at all that I can remember, has anybody been seriously injured by another in our training.

My Instructor always says if you want to get better you have to train with better people. You have to be confident in your training partners and be able to work off of each other. You need to be able to stop and ask what they did and then work it so you both understand it more. You must be able to talk to your Instructor and have him/her explain things and show you.

Fletch brought up a good point. The Instructor should be able to roll with anybody with good technique. I also believe that an Instructor is the person who most of all has to leave the ego at the door because it serves no purpose. My Instructor went with David Meyer to teach a seminar at a BJJ club just this last weekend and their Instructor was asked after rolling with David if he ever lost to any of his students. The guy puffed up his chest and said never. This guy is doing it wrong and even though he was a BJJ black belt he was easily dominate by David's Blue Belts. He had too much ego and never trained with good people and set his standards as himself and because he could only teach so much to his class and wasn't willing to have others learn more to beat him so he was stuck at that level.

Ground fighting is not for everybody. It is tiring and even if you are a big cardio person it is a different kind of tired. Being cooked on the bottom with somebody putting their full weight on your chest or head can zap you especially if you are trying to push them off. We each have to find our own paths but I would suggest giving it time and then see as your views may change like mine.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#240151 - 04/03/06 01:00 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Dereck]
Diabolic Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 256
Loc: San Jose, California
I am new to the whole BJJ thing, only been doing it now for about 3 weeks and I have come from a wrestling background also.
No offense, but suck it up and learn. Pull them aside on open mat time and say, hey can you show me this or that which you did to me earlier. Don't have an ego, and learn as much as possible. Even if its from asking help from that cocky little wrestler.

I consider myself pretty good in wrestling, but what BJJ has tought me is to be patient. The explosiveness I was use to in wrestling doesn't really apply to BJJ. Against a good BJJ'er if I move to fast or do one mistake I'm tapping in seconds. Alot of this stuff is technique now, not really about strength and power. Yes it helps, but groundfighting is a whole dif ball game. As far as getting hurt, expect it. If I am not hurting or walking funny after BJJ practice, I did not give it my all.
_________________________
Never underestimate the little guys.

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#240152 - 04/03/06 05:35 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
Fiddler Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Have been lurking on this bbs for a bit, enjoying the topics and discussions that come up and wanted to jump in on this one. Nice to meet you all.

Subzero, sounds like you have an awesome dojo to train at and fellow judoka with great spirit. However, you are being confronted with an opportunity to test your learning, your fitness, and your fighting spirit. I have trained at many clubs, some very recreational, and some where it was just a survival exercise for me, my skill and fitness were barely enough to keep up. Everbody seemed to be going full out the whole time, you couldn't work on any good technique because if you made a mistake you would get hurt. I got very disoucraged sometimes, and injured too. The answer (for me) I figured out was that I needed to look at why I was doing so poorly, and train on it long term. So when randori time came I would just say to my partner, "only %50 ok?" If they wanted to fight like crazy, then I wouldn't bother, I only worked with people who would go easy for a while so I could work on technique without getting injured. Second, I picked a couple of black belts who had styles and techniques that I liked and did uchi-komi and randori with them whenever I could. Started trying their moves over and over. Funny thing, if you start copying somebody a lot, they notice and then usually start helping you at those techniques because they are their own favourites so it is fun for them to instruct you. For a whole year, I took it gradually, fought 50 to 80 percent,increased my fitness and improved my technique and after that time I found that I was able to do randori with pretty much anyone at the club and practice well. I have just recently been promoted to Ikkyu and feel like I have to start this process all over again because at my last tournament I discovered what a difference it is to be bottom dog fighting brown and black belts instead of top dog fighting blue and under.

Another thing I realized along the way was that learning and improvement in most martial arts training environments is left largely up to the individual, not structured like it would be in a school. The sensei is often someone who has some excellent knowledge and skills to pass on, but they have no formal training on how to teach it, they just do their best to explain when students ask questions or when they try to teach a technique to the class. I find most black belts in Judo to have a good general knowledge and at least one or two really good techniques, you just have to figure out how to get it out of them. The dojo is a place to come and train and learn and pass on knowledge in a kind of free association style, which can be hard to figure out how to learn from but eventually I think leads to a stronger more confident Judoka because ultimately you direct your own learning and develop your own style.

Sorry if this is sounding too deep, I sympathise with your situation especially about the chance of injury but ultimately you have to make your own rules about how you want to train and what you can take away from your class. Maybe this club is not at the right level for you and a more recreational club would be a better choice, but for me I would try and stick it out there and see if you can learn from this guy and then start kicking some butt out there yourself.

F
_________________________
You can't control the waves, but you can learn how to surf.

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#240153 - 04/03/06 08:31 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Excellent post, Fiddler! Welcome to the forums. That is a great idea to modulate intensity when sparring - especially when injured. I have asked people to do that for me at times.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#240154 - 04/03/06 10:23 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: MattJ]
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
Update: Well, I guess I don't suck as much as I thought...tonight my instructor told me he was moving me up from yellow to green. Also, I guess the thing about the 6 month slump is true...I rolled with someone newer than myself (probably had several pounds on me) and tapped him twice, once with a figure four arm lock(?) and then with a choke. Feels good to win once in a while...lol
_________________________
"**** OFF! Judean People's Front...We're the PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!" - The Life of Brian

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#240155 - 04/03/06 10:26 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
Diabolic Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 256
Loc: San Jose, California
Welcome to the forums Fiddler. Great post, can't really add much to that.
_________________________
Never underestimate the little guys.

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#240156 - 04/03/06 11:53 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Diabolic]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
It isn't the falls or the fighting I hate... it's all that "getting up"... I've done judo longer than many of you have been alive, and it isn't the falls that kill you... it's all that stinkin' gettin' up to start over...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#240157 - 04/04/06 02:45 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: wristtwister]
ScottO Offline
de riddim master

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
Make sure you have room to get up. Make sure a punch isn't in your face when you do!

You want to get up as soon as possible, but make sure the guy isn't storming at you! On ground, you want to keep a movable position so if he tried to tun behind you, you can turn and keep him in your sight. On your buttocks. If he gets too close, strike with your feet or if you can, sweep him...lock his ankle and push at his knee....NOW you can get up. Once he is subdued, let's say.

Then there are other cases. Environment, Multiple People...."depends on the situation"

I could have just said that but I didn't want to leave it an empty shell. Those words sadly will lose meaning to some people.


But to put everything in perspective once again, this is a website. Instructors are the ones that ultimately clear things up for you, not text. If not, find a new instructor.
_________________________
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."

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#240158 - 04/04/06 05:29 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Great post Fiddler and welcome to the forum my fellow Albertan. Man we are good guys aren't we?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#240159 - 04/04/06 06:04 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Dereck]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I've done judo longer than many of you have been alive, and it isn't the falls that kill you... it's all that stinkin' gettin' up to start over...




My apologies to anyone too stupid to understand that was a joke.

Some of you guys need to stay on your medication... (no need to send me more hate mail... that was a joke too)

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#240160 - 04/04/06 06:07 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Dereck]
Fiddler Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Howdy Dereck, what part of this yahoo province are you in? If you are interested in seeing a huge Judo tournament there will be one this Sat. April 8 at the West Edmonton Mall. Juniors will likely fight in the moring and IJF and Seniors start a bit later. Great public forum for a tournament to get people interested. I have to work so I won't be able to go but many good judoka will be there. It should be fun to watch, especially the team tournament at the end.


Also about this groundwork thing, I have also found lately that working on constantly changing techniques while practising or during ne-waza randori is helping a lot. If you just try to force one or two moves all the time you quickly lock into a stalemate with your opponent, or he/she just starts countering you and then beating you. If you always keep changing, going for what seems most obvious to you until you finally get something locked in really good then it does a few things, it keeps you constantly thinking about your moves, keeps you moving at at steady pace (instead of locking up really hard on one technique) and it keeps your opponent working too, less time for them to think. I am just throwing this out as a training method right now, but I have had some success with it in competition too except that in shia you are fighting so much harder it is often dangerous to work through techniques you are not so good at.

F
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#240161 - 04/04/06 06:25 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Howdy Dereck, what part of this yahoo province are you in? If you are interested in seeing a huge Judo tournament there will be one this Sat. April 8 at the West Edmonton Mall. Juniors will likely fight in the moring and IJF and Seniors start a bit later. Great public forum for a tournament to get people interested. I have to work so I won't be able to go but many good judoka will be there. It should be fun to watch, especially the team tournament at the end.




I hail from just outside of Edmonton and am aware of this event at West Edmonton Mall. We recently had a Judo guy join our school to cross train to learn some stand up and to learn more ground fighting skills with BJJ/JJJ. He was training with me and we both were going to compete in a no gi submission grappling tournament in Edmonton. He got injuried (not by me) and was unable to and he wanted to heal up as he will be doing this. I will be dropping by to watch him compete.

Back on this orginaly thread, when I was training for this tournament (my first) I wanted to go but also I was frightened and didn't want to go. I went and am glad I did.

The light heavy weight (myself) and the heavy weights fought in a cage similar to the UFC. After my first match which came to a draw I crashed physically and mentally and wondered why I was doing it. I wanted to quit and scratch my name off of the list. I didn't and I said to myself I will do one more and I did that. Then I did another and another until I had 8 matches. I had 2 wins, 5 loses and 1 draw. I learned things I need to work on. I learned I panicked a few times and could have easily got out of things if I had just calmed down. I learned I have good stand up and am hard to take down, which I think comes from my earlier wrestling days. I learned that I actually love it and that there is no shame in tapping out because I can learn from losing more so then winning. Sometimes you just need to face things head on and see how things turn out. Sometimes they are bad but then there are times they are great. Now I want to do more. Back to class tonight to train.

SubZero I'm glad you are sticking with it and you were able to tap out some people. If this boosts your to the next level then excellent. You can learn far more from people that are better then you then if you are better then them. Good Job
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