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#240149 - 03/23/06 08:54 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: oldman]
Joss Offline

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Minor injuries are just part of MA. No argument at all.

But I'm in the same situation as Oldman as far as heavy mat work goes. The risk of more serious injuries gets to be a real concern with age (56+). Then you find yourself wondering, seriously, if it is worth it... but still not being willing to "wuss out".

It makes me look deeper into what I want out of MA when I wonder if I see walls I can no longer climb over. No matter how hard I train, my joints and ligaments are not going to grow better.

There's a paradox there when you discover that you're getting hurt maybe every tenth time you train - and you train to be able to not get hurt in a one in a thousand self defense situation.

#240150 - 03/24/06 02:22 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Joss]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10417
Loc: Great White North
A lot of good stuff here. I was a wrestler and enjoyed it thoroughly. Without being on a mat in over 16 years when joining martial arts I still did very well until other's techniques exceeded mine and then I started to hate it. I opted out of going to these classes as I almost had a fear inside me ... and ego was a hinderance as I did not like to accept loosing. Then one day I said screw it and I'm going to do it and now I find myself loving it and am training to compete.

Injuries do happen. I have several injuries from ground work such as the crushed vertebrea in my neck and the torn distal bicep tendon. These were all my own fault as I pushed the limits and I can't blame anybody else for them. And just a couple of weeks ago I broke my little toe just doing shrimping exercises across the floor. Not to mention my knee, though the torn ACL is a hyperextension from stand up ... but still affects my ground work. Things happen and you have to accept them and learn from them. I know I won't be doing a few things like that again. Some times I go too hard and this is where things can go wrong. Rarely ... if at all that I can remember, has anybody been seriously injured by another in our training.

My Instructor always says if you want to get better you have to train with better people. You have to be confident in your training partners and be able to work off of each other. You need to be able to stop and ask what they did and then work it so you both understand it more. You must be able to talk to your Instructor and have him/her explain things and show you.

Fletch brought up a good point. The Instructor should be able to roll with anybody with good technique. I also believe that an Instructor is the person who most of all has to leave the ego at the door because it serves no purpose. My Instructor went with David Meyer to teach a seminar at a BJJ club just this last weekend and their Instructor was asked after rolling with David if he ever lost to any of his students. The guy puffed up his chest and said never. This guy is doing it wrong and even though he was a BJJ black belt he was easily dominate by David's Blue Belts. He had too much ego and never trained with good people and set his standards as himself and because he could only teach so much to his class and wasn't willing to have others learn more to beat him so he was stuck at that level.

Ground fighting is not for everybody. It is tiring and even if you are a big cardio person it is a different kind of tired. Being cooked on the bottom with somebody putting their full weight on your chest or head can zap you especially if you are trying to push them off. We each have to find our own paths but I would suggest giving it time and then see as your views may change like mine.

#240151 - 04/03/06 01:00 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Dereck]
Diabolic Offline

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 256
Loc: San Jose, California
I am new to the whole BJJ thing, only been doing it now for about 3 weeks and I have come from a wrestling background also.
No offense, but suck it up and learn. Pull them aside on open mat time and say, hey can you show me this or that which you did to me earlier. Don't have an ego, and learn as much as possible. Even if its from asking help from that cocky little wrestler.

I consider myself pretty good in wrestling, but what BJJ has tought me is to be patient. The explosiveness I was use to in wrestling doesn't really apply to BJJ. Against a good BJJ'er if I move to fast or do one mistake I'm tapping in seconds. Alot of this stuff is technique now, not really about strength and power. Yes it helps, but groundfighting is a whole dif ball game. As far as getting hurt, expect it. If I am not hurting or walking funny after BJJ practice, I did not give it my all.
Never underestimate the little guys.

#240152 - 04/03/06 05:35 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
Fiddler Offline

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Have been lurking on this bbs for a bit, enjoying the topics and discussions that come up and wanted to jump in on this one. Nice to meet you all.

Subzero, sounds like you have an awesome dojo to train at and fellow judoka with great spirit. However, you are being confronted with an opportunity to test your learning, your fitness, and your fighting spirit. I have trained at many clubs, some very recreational, and some where it was just a survival exercise for me, my skill and fitness were barely enough to keep up. Everbody seemed to be going full out the whole time, you couldn't work on any good technique because if you made a mistake you would get hurt. I got very disoucraged sometimes, and injured too. The answer (for me) I figured out was that I needed to look at why I was doing so poorly, and train on it long term. So when randori time came I would just say to my partner, "only %50 ok?" If they wanted to fight like crazy, then I wouldn't bother, I only worked with people who would go easy for a while so I could work on technique without getting injured. Second, I picked a couple of black belts who had styles and techniques that I liked and did uchi-komi and randori with them whenever I could. Started trying their moves over and over. Funny thing, if you start copying somebody a lot, they notice and then usually start helping you at those techniques because they are their own favourites so it is fun for them to instruct you. For a whole year, I took it gradually, fought 50 to 80 percent,increased my fitness and improved my technique and after that time I found that I was able to do randori with pretty much anyone at the club and practice well. I have just recently been promoted to Ikkyu and feel like I have to start this process all over again because at my last tournament I discovered what a difference it is to be bottom dog fighting brown and black belts instead of top dog fighting blue and under.

Another thing I realized along the way was that learning and improvement in most martial arts training environments is left largely up to the individual, not structured like it would be in a school. The sensei is often someone who has some excellent knowledge and skills to pass on, but they have no formal training on how to teach it, they just do their best to explain when students ask questions or when they try to teach a technique to the class. I find most black belts in Judo to have a good general knowledge and at least one or two really good techniques, you just have to figure out how to get it out of them. The dojo is a place to come and train and learn and pass on knowledge in a kind of free association style, which can be hard to figure out how to learn from but eventually I think leads to a stronger more confident Judoka because ultimately you direct your own learning and develop your own style.

Sorry if this is sounding too deep, I sympathise with your situation especially about the chance of injury but ultimately you have to make your own rules about how you want to train and what you can take away from your class. Maybe this club is not at the right level for you and a more recreational club would be a better choice, but for me I would try and stick it out there and see if you can learn from this guy and then start kicking some butt out there yourself.

You can't control the waves, but you can learn how to surf.

#240153 - 04/03/06 08:31 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Excellent post, Fiddler! Welcome to the forums. That is a great idea to modulate intensity when sparring - especially when injured. I have asked people to do that for me at times.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#240154 - 04/03/06 10:23 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: MattJ]
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
Update: Well, I guess I don't suck as much as I thought...tonight my instructor told me he was moving me up from yellow to green. Also, I guess the thing about the 6 month slump is true...I rolled with someone newer than myself (probably had several pounds on me) and tapped him twice, once with a figure four arm lock(?) and then with a choke. Feels good to win once in a
"**** OFF! Judean People's Front...We're the PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!" - The Life of Brian

#240155 - 04/03/06 10:26 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
Diabolic Offline

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 256
Loc: San Jose, California
Welcome to the forums Fiddler. Great post, can't really add much to that.
Never underestimate the little guys.

#240156 - 04/03/06 11:53 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Diabolic]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
It isn't the falls or the fighting I hate... it's all that "getting up"... I've done judo longer than many of you have been alive, and it isn't the falls that kill you... it's all that stinkin' gettin' up to start over...

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#240157 - 04/04/06 02:45 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: wristtwister]
ScottO Offline
de riddim master

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
Make sure you have room to get up. Make sure a punch isn't in your face when you do!

You want to get up as soon as possible, but make sure the guy isn't storming at you! On ground, you want to keep a movable position so if he tried to tun behind you, you can turn and keep him in your sight. On your buttocks. If he gets too close, strike with your feet or if you can, sweep him...lock his ankle and push at his knee....NOW you can get up. Once he is subdued, let's say.

Then there are other cases. Environment, Multiple People...."depends on the situation"

I could have just said that but I didn't want to leave it an empty shell. Those words sadly will lose meaning to some people.

But to put everything in perspective once again, this is a website. Instructors are the ones that ultimately clear things up for you, not text. If not, find a new instructor.
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."

#240158 - 04/04/06 05:29 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fiddler]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10417
Loc: Great White North
Great post Fiddler and welcome to the forum my fellow Albertan. Man we are good guys aren't we?

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