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#240139 - 03/20/06 09:14 PM What I hate about groundfighting...
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast. I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.

I took this class, among other reasons, to help get me in shape. But I feel like I need to join Gold's Gym or something to ever achieve success.

Thoughts?
_________________________
"**** OFF! Judean People's Front...We're the PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!" - The Life of Brian

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#240140 - 03/20/06 09:24 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
ScottO Offline
de riddim master

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
Quote:

...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast. I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.

I took this class, among other reasons, to help get me in shape. But I feel like I need to join Gold's Gym or something to ever achieve success.

Thoughts?





To get in shape, join a gym. That's what they specialize in. If you want to defend yourself, join a Martial Art. Or buy a gun, I don't know.

If the same guy keeps getting nosebleeds, it's either his fault or he's working out with the same person. You have got to have control when grappling/groundfighting. I would hate going to class if I always got hurt. It actually IS possible to grapple realisticly without killing each other. You should suggest to the instructor to enforce this law more. I'm not saying he's not doing a good job, he sounds like an excellent instructor.

Just clear something up...when you say you start out in randori...I thought floorfighting is when one person is on the ground and the other isn't. Grappling is when they're both on the ground. Perhaps grappling is the same as groundfighting. Oh well, screw the formalities (I'm sure I'm going to be flamed for this )


Why would a wrestler clean house? He wrestles. I'm sure he is a good wrestler....but if we're talking about you training self-defense groundfighting....it's just two seperate things.
_________________________
"All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff."

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#240141 - 03/21/06 07:21 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast.




It all comes down to the coach/instructor. It is HIS responsibility to get certain points across to all who are training. He should work to demonstrate the necessary energy needed during specific training modalities. He should also be knowledgeable enough to create certain specific drills and to explain how and why itís important to dial the energy up and down during training.

Perhaps your coach just doesnít have enough experience coaching.

Quote:


I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.




First of all, you donít HAVE to train and roll with people who you don't trust! In order to have a great experience that wonít lead to burn-out and injury, you have to have a certain amount of trust in your training partners. Everyone should know that they are there not ONLY to improve themselves but to improve their partners as well. This isnít done when theyíre always dominating every facet of the training. But again, I have to place the blame here on the coach at some point.

Quote:


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.




I think youíre giving your instructor too much credit. Itís his responsibility to create a safe and productive training environment. Does it seem like he has achieved this in YOUR opinion? Iíd say not, based on what I've read in your post.

A good coach will put people of similar ages, sizes and experience levels together during training drills, etc. He will allow those who want to roll with greater intensity to pair up with each other. That way everyone improves and everyone is working with people who are "on the same page" as they are.

During rolling of course, EVERYONE can roll with whomever they want. But that's always YOUR choice (with whom you roll).



-John

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#240142 - 03/21/06 05:23 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
This is a common problem with instructors who are underqualified or underconfident (regardless of rank) to teach grappling.

I have seen many multi degree back belts/ red & white belts in traditional JJ who, although have many years of practice doing high speed, advanced newaza techniques for demo purposes were literally white belts when it came to rolling and actually playing the game.

Anyone who wants to teach groundfighting in my opinion, should be able to get on the mat and roll with every one of his newer students and be able to handle them all with technique, without hurting them. I feel pretty strongly about this.

An instructor that won't do this...or can't do this, will probably run classes where students routinely get injured. It will happen because the instructor will not have the confidence or competence to teach and show technique without resorting to physical attributes and students will get the message through his inattention that going full blast is how to train.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#240143 - 03/21/06 07:08 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: Fletch1]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I haven't really got anything to add except to say what it is about groundfighting that I hate.
It's so bloody knackering.
I've been doing JJJ for a few months now that has a Russian, Greco-Roman wrestling champion as a co-instructor so we do a fair bit on the ground.
I just wish to state for the record that I have the utmost respect for the level of fitness needed to partake in this type of MA.
I thought I was fit till I started this groundfighting lark, now I feel like I ain't been off the sofa for the last 5 years.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#240144 - 03/21/06 11:44 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

...is that someone with a wrestling background can just walk into the class and clean house. That and the fact that my instructor keeps telling the class to "have fun, you're not qualifying for the olympic team" and yet everyone STILL goes full blast. I've seen the same guy get his nose busted and his shoulder dislocated since I started the class last fall. This makes me wonder if I'm going to get crippled because of an overzealous randori partner.


Now, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the instructor's fault. I think he's a great teacher. In fact, in randori he watches and tells people to be careful if he sees something that might go bad and there are ground rules he sets (no heel hooks, etc.) I like the throwing but I guess I don't like the groundfighting so much, possibly because I suck at it.

I took this class, among other reasons, to help get me in shape. But I feel like I need to join Gold's Gym or something to ever achieve success.

Thoughts?




Be grateful. It sounds like a great environment to make real improvement.

Tough it out. You'll be glad you did.
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#240145 - 03/22/06 12:21 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: kusojiji]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Since I know all the people involved I'll chime in. I understand your frustration Sub. The truth is you could be injured. Stuff happens. I don't think the rate of injury is higher at our club than others. I spoke with our injured friend, after a while he acknowledged that he contributed to his situation. The desire to come out on top can get the best of all of us. As a new club in a new location we have alot of new guys. As I have rolled with the brown belts I find they are much more relaxed and aren't out to crush others. Alot of the new guys are big and strong. I have had to ask myself the same questions as you,like, "What the hell was I thinking". I'm not sure what to tell you other than that.
To John and Fletch,the teacher is experienced and capable. He has been coaching for 40 years. He has coached olympic judoka in Colorado Springs, and world champion sambo players. Thats not to say he could not be overlooking something when it comes to randori or partner selection. Both MattJ and Razorfoot have trained with him at my house. He has also authored 3 books that I know of, one specifically on coaching. Class is well ordered yet flexible with lost of reps ending with 30 minutes of rolling/randori. I have had minor injuries but none that were beyond what could be expected.OK I didn't expect to tear off a toenail but thats a different story. As I said earlier, "I hear you". And to be honest I don't know how long I will continue. It is hard as hell. I'm a gynormous wussy. There are real risks, and real rewards. I'm on the fence. Not because of the quality of instruction but the sincere question wheither I have it in me.

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#240146 - 03/22/06 12:14 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: oldman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Yes, that instructor seemed very competent to me. Injuries are bound to happen in martial arts practice. Last night in my ground fighting class, I got kneed in the face and almost hyperextended my right knee. I also elbowed 1 guy in the face and eyegouged another. All were accidents. All preventable? Don't know. Stuff happens.

Coming from a stand-up prespective, I agree that groundfighting is hard. And it does suck to get tapped out. But there is only one way to learn.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#240147 - 03/22/06 12:44 PM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: SubZero]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think there is no better way to get in shape and burn calories then carry someone else weight or have them carry yours. Its done almost unconcisously because of the effort required in this discipline. of course weigh training and running helps tone and add to overall conditioning.

As for a wrestler cleaning house it depends on his experince of course if he is a high school or College Champion and you are 3-6 month old JJ r judo player you shouldn't and won't be able to compete.

But with same experinces a wrestler makes alot of mistake shooting and thinking hes safe because hes on top or on his stomach. He can be submitted easily because he is not trained to look or defend such moves.

But there is no doubt a well trained wrestler is hard to deal with stamina and power of move wise espeicailly if he in the mount. I find they almost give up once mounted because they are trying to defend against the pin, and we want their back!!!

Anyway keep training and be safe use technique rather then strength because that what stops you from hurting each other, the method of applying the techniques are designed to give you time to tap out. Like most MAs injuries can occur at any level but mostly in the lower kyu level because they don't know how to control their technique and still be effective.

As for fitness JJ/Judo/Wrestling gives you great level of fitness then just weight lifting, both would help overall.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#240148 - 03/23/06 04:58 AM Re: What I hate about groundfighting... [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
One time I was up in K.C. and I was working some ground stuff in this guys basement. We were just practicing and I "accidentally" elbowed him in the face. I said I was sorry and he agreed.

When you train,injuries happen,it's just a part of it and you have to decide for yourself if it's worth it to you to continue.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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