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#239976 - 03/19/06 10:55 PM Neck cranks
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
This might be too difficult a topic without 'showing'. but I'm interested in how you guys view/train neck cranks, head manipulation/takedowns/throws/breaks. I have zero formal expereince in MMA or ground grappling ....but this is relavent for some Goju stuff I'm working on.

maybe to narrow it down, some suggestions for subsections to the topic could be addressed if you want:

* as a general rule, do you 'soften targets' first, prior to attempting taking control of the head?

* how do you address a smaller defender vs larger/stronger attacker? (in regard to head/neck manipulation)

* what is the reliability of pulling off a head-trick during full-resistance drills?

* as a civillian self-defense method, is neck/head twisting considered as a 'last resort' method? overkill in most situations? is it even allowed in what you train?

* How does your method defend against your head grabs/twists/locks?


lots of ground to cover...I'm mostly looking for principals and philosophies, but if you need to explain specific techniques, go for it - it won't be easy for me to visualize though...so pictures go a long way when citing specifics.

thanks,
-E

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#239977 - 03/19/06 11:08 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Borrek Offline
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Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
nvm


Edited by Borrek (03/19/06 11:24 PM)

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#239978 - 03/19/06 11:19 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Borrek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
hmmm...maybe this isn't such a good topic...I wouldn't want anyone without an instructor present to be trying this stuff on each other.

If we can keep the thread in terms of principles, we might be better off.

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#239979 - 03/20/06 12:02 AM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Principles...

1.Control the head, control the body.

2.Where the head goes, the body follows.

I can give you fun experiment to work with a partner. You can do it back and forth. Put your left hand behind your partners head and your right hand on their chin. Tell them to resist your attemp to turn their head counter clockwise. Gently but firmly begin to apply pressure to turn their head. They should be able to resist a good amount of pressure. Now do it a second time. This time as you cup your right hand under the persons chin apply pressure with you right thumb to the point on their chin directly under
the right corner of their mouth. That is imagine drawing a line from the corner of the mouth down to the chin. Pressing on that point properly causes their ability to resist the turning dramatically. It can be a fun exercise.

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#239980 - 03/20/06 12:17 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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We worked neck cranks quite a bit in my former JKD class, in practice and in sparring. Have to be QUITE careful with those in sparring, as it is very easy to FUBAR your partner.

I was actually somewhat disappointed to learn that they are somewhat frowned upon in BJJ (at least where I currently train), but meh. Probably better off without them.

Neck cranks/crossfaces were the "fall-back" technique in the case of almost any choke that the opponent would not let you get (ie; tucked his chin so that you couldn't get to his neck). Pretty reliable, IMHO.

Goos stuff to know, as long as you are super careful in training.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#239981 - 03/20/06 12:59 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: MattJ]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Neck breaks work with the element of surprise.

Neck cranks are difficult unless you are already in a position of domination. I have seen people teach the head twist tactic to escape mount, neck cranks to escape back mount, etc. I would disagree with that.

Neck cranks can be used to set up chokes & locks and escape headlocks pretty well though.

They are rough training though and leave everyone sore for a week.
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#239982 - 03/20/06 01:50 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Fletch1]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
We train as such still but with care and attention and usually only with an advanced class. Sore necks ... yah that happens. But sore necks happen from throwing, sweeping, tossing and falling technique days as well ... it just goes with the territory.

I agree with Fletch the neck crack are usually used in a domination stage but sometimes they present themselve otherwise and maybe not so much in a friendly roll would I use it without warning my partner but in a competition that may be a different thing.
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#239983 - 03/20/06 03:00 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

* as a general rule, do you 'soften targets' first, prior to attempting taking control of the head?




Within grappling Ed we don't usually soften the target ... or maybe not the way you are referring to. When do a Pancration type of training (stand up/takedown/grappling) we may with kicks and punches and such but basic grappling not so much. Once locked in or clinched up we may jam the legs or try to tie the legs up prior to trying to control the head to throw them off. The leg thing might work and then forget the head and hip toss them or what have you.

Perhaps you mean softening up similar to how Oldman referred to above with his statement when you control the head the body will follow. When we lock up you have to get them off balance and so you may have to jam left and then jam right, push backwards or pull forwards almost like a dance with repeated steps never letting them know which way you are going to take them. When they least expect it then you take them down. This may be softening of a sort.

Quote:

* how do you address a smaller defender vs larger/stronger attacker? (in regard to head/neck manipulation)




The techniques we learn in any aspect of our training never really takes into affect these factors. Sure with tossing or throwing you may have to lower yourself in order get your hips below a smaller person but for the main part we train the same way. Of course larger/stronger opponents will be harder ... not impossible ... but definitely harder and you may be the one being manipulated.

Now head cranking/manipulation may not be the advantage of the smaller person during stand up but might be more so when down on the ground if can get a dominating position.

Quote:

* what is the reliability of pulling off a head-trick during full-resistance drills?




I think it is like any technique, you attempt it but if failing then you abandon and try another technique, if you get another chance then try it again. If you are working specifically on this technique to get better at it then this may be different.

Quote:

* as a civilian self-defense method, is neck/head twisting considered as a 'last resort' method? overkill in most situations? is it even allowed in what you train?




To be honest I have never really approached it or remember it being taught in a self defense situation. Mostly this technique is in a more competitive nature though I'm sure it can be easily carried over. Like anything when dealing with self defense, use what works at that time especially if your life or others are in danger.

Quote:

* How does your method defend against your head grabs/twists/locks?




To broad of an issue and would need to give more thought to.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#239984 - 03/20/06 03:29 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Dereck]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
by 'softening the target' I mean striking before seizing. a distraction, since nobody would let you grab their head. (wait, that sounds wrong. lol).

a kiss before going 'in for the kill'...that still doesn't sound right....

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#239985 - 03/20/06 03:43 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ed -

I think it is fair to assume that if you are in "neck cranking" range, you have probably already bypassed the striking range.

Many people do use strikes to "close the gap" into the clinch range (where you would be to do a neck crank). Is that what you mean?
_________________________
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#239986 - 03/20/06 04:14 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I think I know what you are referring to.

The whole concept of softening a target was a big part of my traditional JJ training where the uke would grab my wrist or lapel and then I would deliver a finger, palm strike, etc. to "loosen" him up a little before flowing into some wristlock takedown or something.

In BJJ however, even the SD tactics are generally structured so that the initial "softening" is not as critical, as the close quarter confrontation that ensued when the uke started resisting, was generally something that the BJJ student was more comfortable with anyway.

I remember at least 100 variations of self defense against a wrist grab from Traditional JJ. In BJJ, you punch him, clinch with him or a combination of both. That's about it.
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#239987 - 03/20/06 05:15 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Fletch1]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
fletch, matt, et al...yes, what you are describing is what I meant. I'll make it easier, lets say it's not a life-death self-defense situation.
like matt said, lets assume we are in good reach of the guy's noggin. take the best case scenario...ie you've got him just where you want him. you are both standing up and you have the advantage. if you were to give him a standup submission using any neck/head technique, what would it be?

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#239988 - 03/20/06 05:40 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Hopefully in this scenario he has his head down and then I'd choke him out with a single arm choke where you wrap your arm around his neck, grab your own shirt/collar, lower my stance and arch my back. If he wants to push forward then I'd let him and lead him to the ground and then wrap my legs around his body and lock it in tighter till he passes out.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#239989 - 03/20/06 05:51 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Dereck]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I'm sure you know which choke I'm talking about but I thought I'd try to find a picture none the less. I didn't but I found this link which I really enjoyed and I thought you would as well.

The reason I'm sticking it in here is because I think it fits in well plus I think it has the "softening" idea that Ed was talking about. This you will see later towards the end when they do it in stand up. Watch it and enjoy it.

http://www.grapplearts.com/My-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Download.htm
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#239990 - 03/20/06 09:16 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Dereck]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats cool dereck, thanks....got a defense for it? other than 'no be there'.

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#239991 - 03/21/06 12:01 AM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
A good example of "softening" in BJJ (Vale Tudo) is punching someone from the mount until they turn and give you there back for the choke.

I think in the BJJ SD techique against an over arm bear hug from the front, there are knee strikes prior to setting up the hip throw (ogoshi).
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#239992 - 03/21/06 01:18 AM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

thats cool dereck, thanks....got a defense for it? other than 'no be there'.




If you are talking about the clip ... not yet. I sent the video to my Instructor and he said he knows it well and used it just this last weekend. He joined David Meyer (Machado BJJ) to help train in Regina, SK. First seminar was with the police force. The next seminar was the Regina BJJ club. The third seminar was at an Akido club. Three seminars in 2 days ... he said it was rough and enjoyed every minute of it. Back to the video. I was hoping to go over it with him but did not get a chance thought I was there for 3.5 hours. The last 1/2 hour was discussing his trip. I will see about Wednesday. Once I can learn the actual choke then I would look into learning its escape. For me I'd rather know it first without knowing the escape and take it one step at a time.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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