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#239976 - 03/19/06 10:55 PM Neck cranks
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
This might be too difficult a topic without 'showing'. but I'm interested in how you guys view/train neck cranks, head manipulation/takedowns/throws/breaks. I have zero formal expereince in MMA or ground grappling ....but this is relavent for some Goju stuff I'm working on.

maybe to narrow it down, some suggestions for subsections to the topic could be addressed if you want:

* as a general rule, do you 'soften targets' first, prior to attempting taking control of the head?

* how do you address a smaller defender vs larger/stronger attacker? (in regard to head/neck manipulation)

* what is the reliability of pulling off a head-trick during full-resistance drills?

* as a civillian self-defense method, is neck/head twisting considered as a 'last resort' method? overkill in most situations? is it even allowed in what you train?

* How does your method defend against your head grabs/twists/locks?


lots of ground to cover...I'm mostly looking for principals and philosophies, but if you need to explain specific techniques, go for it - it won't be easy for me to visualize though...so pictures go a long way when citing specifics.

thanks,
-E

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#239977 - 03/19/06 11:08 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Borrek Offline
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Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
nvm


Edited by Borrek (03/19/06 11:24 PM)

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#239978 - 03/19/06 11:19 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Borrek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
hmmm...maybe this isn't such a good topic...I wouldn't want anyone without an instructor present to be trying this stuff on each other.

If we can keep the thread in terms of principles, we might be better off.

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#239979 - 03/20/06 12:02 AM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Principles...

1.Control the head, control the body.

2.Where the head goes, the body follows.

I can give you fun experiment to work with a partner. You can do it back and forth. Put your left hand behind your partners head and your right hand on their chin. Tell them to resist your attemp to turn their head counter clockwise. Gently but firmly begin to apply pressure to turn their head. They should be able to resist a good amount of pressure. Now do it a second time. This time as you cup your right hand under the persons chin apply pressure with you right thumb to the point on their chin directly under
the right corner of their mouth. That is imagine drawing a line from the corner of the mouth down to the chin. Pressing on that point properly causes their ability to resist the turning dramatically. It can be a fun exercise.

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#239980 - 03/20/06 12:17 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
We worked neck cranks quite a bit in my former JKD class, in practice and in sparring. Have to be QUITE careful with those in sparring, as it is very easy to FUBAR your partner.

I was actually somewhat disappointed to learn that they are somewhat frowned upon in BJJ (at least where I currently train), but meh. Probably better off without them.

Neck cranks/crossfaces were the "fall-back" technique in the case of almost any choke that the opponent would not let you get (ie; tucked his chin so that you couldn't get to his neck). Pretty reliable, IMHO.

Goos stuff to know, as long as you are super careful in training.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#239981 - 03/20/06 12:59 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: MattJ]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Neck breaks work with the element of surprise.

Neck cranks are difficult unless you are already in a position of domination. I have seen people teach the head twist tactic to escape mount, neck cranks to escape back mount, etc. I would disagree with that.

Neck cranks can be used to set up chokes & locks and escape headlocks pretty well though.

They are rough training though and leave everyone sore for a week.
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#239982 - 03/20/06 01:50 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Fletch1]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
We train as such still but with care and attention and usually only with an advanced class. Sore necks ... yah that happens. But sore necks happen from throwing, sweeping, tossing and falling technique days as well ... it just goes with the territory.

I agree with Fletch the neck crack are usually used in a domination stage but sometimes they present themselve otherwise and maybe not so much in a friendly roll would I use it without warning my partner but in a competition that may be a different thing.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#239983 - 03/20/06 03:00 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

* as a general rule, do you 'soften targets' first, prior to attempting taking control of the head?




Within grappling Ed we don't usually soften the target ... or maybe not the way you are referring to. When do a Pancration type of training (stand up/takedown/grappling) we may with kicks and punches and such but basic grappling not so much. Once locked in or clinched up we may jam the legs or try to tie the legs up prior to trying to control the head to throw them off. The leg thing might work and then forget the head and hip toss them or what have you.

Perhaps you mean softening up similar to how Oldman referred to above with his statement when you control the head the body will follow. When we lock up you have to get them off balance and so you may have to jam left and then jam right, push backwards or pull forwards almost like a dance with repeated steps never letting them know which way you are going to take them. When they least expect it then you take them down. This may be softening of a sort.

Quote:

* how do you address a smaller defender vs larger/stronger attacker? (in regard to head/neck manipulation)




The techniques we learn in any aspect of our training never really takes into affect these factors. Sure with tossing or throwing you may have to lower yourself in order get your hips below a smaller person but for the main part we train the same way. Of course larger/stronger opponents will be harder ... not impossible ... but definitely harder and you may be the one being manipulated.

Now head cranking/manipulation may not be the advantage of the smaller person during stand up but might be more so when down on the ground if can get a dominating position.

Quote:

* what is the reliability of pulling off a head-trick during full-resistance drills?




I think it is like any technique, you attempt it but if failing then you abandon and try another technique, if you get another chance then try it again. If you are working specifically on this technique to get better at it then this may be different.

Quote:

* as a civilian self-defense method, is neck/head twisting considered as a 'last resort' method? overkill in most situations? is it even allowed in what you train?




To be honest I have never really approached it or remember it being taught in a self defense situation. Mostly this technique is in a more competitive nature though I'm sure it can be easily carried over. Like anything when dealing with self defense, use what works at that time especially if your life or others are in danger.

Quote:

* How does your method defend against your head grabs/twists/locks?




To broad of an issue and would need to give more thought to.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#239984 - 03/20/06 03:29 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Dereck]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
by 'softening the target' I mean striking before seizing. a distraction, since nobody would let you grab their head. (wait, that sounds wrong. lol).

a kiss before going 'in for the kill'...that still doesn't sound right....

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#239985 - 03/20/06 03:43 PM Re: Neck cranks [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ed -

I think it is fair to assume that if you are in "neck cranking" range, you have probably already bypassed the striking range.

Many people do use strikes to "close the gap" into the clinch range (where you would be to do a neck crank). Is that what you mean?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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