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#237423 - 03/09/06 10:13 PM Wrist grabs: how common are they?
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?

think from an attackers point of view...a single wrist grab gives the defender as much advantage as the attacker, since one hand is still available.

for a double wrist grab, wouldn't even a fake kick to the nuts be enough for an attacker to instictively let go, or at least bend forward off-balancing themselves for an easier escape?

but even before the wrist grab, while the aggresor is reaching out to grab your wrists, they are vulnerable. any person whos trained for a bit, would likely react prior to the person getting a full grip on.

why then are there all of these interpretations/books/articles/etc flying around about escaping from stand-up wrist grabs?

I't would be more impressive to hear how a Woman could escape a double wrist grab while she was on her back, being overpowered by a larger Man....that, to me, would be a much more likely scenario of double wrist grabs.

also as an aside... everytime I see someone interpret bunkai from kata as defense against a wrist grab, I can think of 2 more interpretations for the same movement that are against much more aggressive attacks.

what are your collective thoughts on this from a self-defense perspective...regardless of your Art.

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#237424 - 03/09/06 11:15 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
While most arts practice wrist grabs from the front, the most of them on the street are done from behind. It's one thing to grab a guy's wrist knowing he's going to knock your lights out with his other fist, and grabbing both wrists from behind or grabbing one and spinning the victim into your punch.

While my focus is jujitsu, I try to make it from realistic attacks and not from the "made up attacks" that you find in a lot of schools. I tend to work out things that will work from punches and grips that actually occur "in nature" rather than the classical attacks and wrist grabs from the front. Most of those occurred by trying to stop someone from drawing a sword or sai or the like, and there just aren't many people running around with them in their belts these days.

We do a lot of single and double wrist grips in aikido, but they are used to demonstrate principles more than actually being "street attacks"... but there again, every school has its own methods and focus.

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#237425 - 03/09/06 11:42 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I could see a bigger stronger man trying to control a smaller woman possibly for abduction by using wrist grabs.

They would definately let go if someone kicked at them,unless they were just dancing or something.

Quote:

also as an aside... everytime I see someone interpret bunkai from kata as defense against a wrist grab, I can think of 2 more interpretations for the same movement that are against much more aggressive attacks.






Bunkai,IMO,is way too open to the imagination and people come up with an idea and try to fit in their favorite kata,then you just have a silly dance routine that has nothing to do with the kata whatsoever.
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#237426 - 03/09/06 11:43 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
TylerW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 76
Loc: washington state
I think it all depends.

If neither of the people have MA experience, i doubt it would happen. Either the person trying wouldnt be able to pull it off, grab it correctly, or do anything with it once they get it.

If both or either, then maybe, but people on the street are unpredictable. Only way i see being able to grab a wrist is by complete surprise to the other person.

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#237427 - 03/10/06 02:02 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?





in my experience not at all. I have never seen an aggressor grab at their victims wrist(s), I have seen people in the transitional stage from verbal confrontation to being attacked grab at their aggressors wrists to hold them still in an attempt to calm them as they get more animated with agitation. I cant ever remember seeing this end well either.

If someone has the intent to do harm, they will always come in hard with a flurry of strikes of some description or maybe a headlock. The grabbing of a wrist is just not compatable with the goal or mentality of someone wanting to dominate another person physicaly.

If there is a verbal trigger initialy, leading to violence, then the escalation usually presents itself as a hard shove initialy, leading to an immediate retaliation, or just a fast hard flurry of strikes. With a verbal altercation as primary source of conflict, a shove is far more likley as there is not the same strength of intent as involved in a 'full on' out of the blue attack- it needs to be taken up through the gears.

Either way, grabbing the wrist(s) as an act of aggression is very rare.
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#237428 - 03/10/06 08:20 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Cord]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think you guys are biased....looking at it from a 'professional' point of view. A wrist grab, from my limited personal experience, is used when the aggressor doesn't expect resistance. Used on women and children as a control...a prelude to abduction or further violence.

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#237429 - 03/10/06 09:12 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
point taken. but lets use your example of a much stronger attacker... wouldn't the defender have their greatest chance of escape by kicking really hard? as oppossed to say, some of the escapes some find in kata interpretation?

I did a test with my 80lb 11 year old. He was allowed to do anything to escape from the strongest double wrist grab I could manage....he first tried going against the thumbs, but I held on firm. he eventually resorted to kicking me hard in the shin (he was wearing sneakers) and I instictively let go with a yelp lol. I had a black-and-blue for a couple days.

therefore, as far as I'm concerned, I'd have him practice power generation in shoe-donned toe kicking than any kind of fancy wrist releases.

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#237430 - 03/10/06 09:23 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think that 'you make karate your own'. An interpretation of countering a wrist grab doing an armbar technique presumes either skill or upper body strength...both of which I am sure most women and children lack.

While kicking is smart, again, it depends on the context. Martial arts, with known counters, vs. more 'civilian' events?

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#237431 - 03/10/06 09:38 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Wrist grabs are not common in my experience, but they do happen. I had a guy grab my wrist once, because he thought I was trying to get with his girl. (tee hee, actually I was, but I didn't know she had a boyfriend )

I was able to do the standard small circle escape and apologize. He was clearly not trained, although he was bigger than me.
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#237432 - 03/10/06 11:18 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: MattJ]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I like wrist grabs, myself - I happen to be short and strong and heavy, with very good hand strength and a very low center of balance. I am also left handed. I find that if I can grab, with my right hand, somebodies right hand when I am sparing, and hold it at my waist hight, or slightly lower, for 3-5 seconds, I basically can keep him off balance and open up his back for a few seconds. If I step on his right foot at the same time, I can usually get him on the ground, as well.

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#237433 - 03/10/06 11:51 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: harlan]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I think you guys are biased....looking at it from a 'professional' point of view. A wrist grab, from my limited personal experience, is used when the aggressor doesn't expect resistance. Used on women and children as a control...a prelude to abduction or further violence.




I have no doubt in this situation they may be more common, If a woman is grabbed by the wrists, the grabber will 'pull' expecting the woman to try and withdraw from him, i would say if able to act quick enough, this would be a perfect time to use his drawing motion to go with it and headbutt the creep. This could be made more possible as the chances are that he will be stood in such a way as to distance his shins and groin from attack (obvious targets), this will mean that his face is closer as he stoops forward slightly- WHAM! then run.

Just a thought.
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#237434 - 03/10/06 04:30 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Cord]
Lord_Morningstar Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 36
Iíve always viewed wristgrabs as being part of an abduction-style attack rather than a beating-up style attack. Regardless of how common they are, I think a lot of schools start teaching self-defence with escaping from wrist grabs because theyíre simple. Itís an easy point at which to begin.

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#237435 - 03/10/06 05:00 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Lord_Morningstar]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The wrist grab is common when an opponent thinks he is stronger or wants to control and convince and halt your movement. Its common when a attacker approaches a woman or when a aggressive male may try to seduce a unlikely male subject. The idea is to be close and controlling and not get hit standing or sitting. Its not thats common but it can happen its best to know how to quick release from this controlling grasp then to have to go into ground work or grappling. Unless its really serious I see it as a no win situation, if you know a quick release its done and you can start the verbal assault and escape. Usually thats all thats neccesary because the wrist grab was to get you close and quitely express themselves, loud mean its over.

In abducting a woman with the two wrist grab, the same is true, a loud scream can usually end this assault especailly when accompanied by a kick between the legs!!!
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#237436 - 03/10/06 05:36 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Neko456]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Here we go again. The wrist grab scenario, right?

Anybody else ever wondered why so many kata start with a wrist grab?

There's this, not sure how true it is, I wasn't there. (Try asking Oldman )

Might have something to do with the fact that in 18/19th century Okinawa people carried their money in a pouch up their sleeve.



I prefer this explanation...



Kata were created for fighters by fighters and a certain amount of knowledge should be assumed. In a fight the quickest way to end it would be to attack either the eyes, the throat or the groin.

Think about this for a moment.

What would be your reaction if someone was reaching for one of the above on you?

You might conceivably grab their wrist to check them, right...
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#237437 - 03/11/06 02:09 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: McSensei]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
thanks for the replies.
before the direction of the thread wanders into kata interpretation,

I'm asking: Are wrist grabs a HAPV? are they common and varied enough to justify practicing multiple means of release?

lets forget about kata interpretations. thanks.

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#237438 - 03/11/06 02:37 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I really don't believe they are. I would spend more time focusing on other things for self defense.
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#237439 - 03/11/06 02:50 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I really don't believe they are. I would spend more time focusing on other things for self defense.




Agreed. A high level of training geared towards self defence should enable you to have run from, or dealt with a threat long before you are in a position to have your wrist grabbed.

Threat awareness, verbal de-escalation, body language, distance control/fencing, and confidence in judgement on when to act decisively should all be far higher on your list of necessities than 'if he grabs like this, twist that way....' etc.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#237440 - 03/11/06 06:21 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
miyamoto Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 56
Loc: earth
Quote:

While most arts practice wrist grabs from the front, the most of them on the street are done from behind. It's one thing to grab a guy's wrist knowing he's going to knock your lights out with his other fist, and grabbing both wrists from behind or grabbing one and spinning the victim into your punch.

While my focus is jujitsu, I try to make it from realistic attacks and not from the "made up attacks" that you find in a lot of schools. I tend to work out things that will work from punches and grips that actually occur "in nature" rather than the classical attacks and wrist grabs from the front. Most of those occurred by trying to stop someone from drawing a sword or sai or the like, and there just aren't many people running around with them in their belts these days.

We do a lot of single and double wrist grips in aikido, but they are used to demonstrate principles more than actually being "street attacks"... but there again, every school has its own methods and focus.






While It's true that most of wrist grabs specially those "attacks" from the front where really for principles and not a defense actually we can't deny that this simple twist in the wrist thru correct execution of techniques might save us from harm aren't they? A nukite dori technique, I find it very useful in a tight spaces in tachiai or idori stances and this is very useful for women even from both position. For me, i don't need a lot of wrist techniques, what I need is just one that I studied and almost perfected for years.

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#237441 - 03/11/06 08:00 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
grabs do appear in the top 10 HAPV, arm and lapel.

also McSensei makes valid points historically (money up sleeve and weapon draw) and in reality, if someone is really coming at you with intent then throat and groin grabs/strikes are very much our instinctive defence, hence they grab your arm to release, particulary if it goes to stand up grappling, which is again very common in assaults.

I will post the accepted UK common assaults list soon as im off to bed
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#237442 - 03/12/06 05:38 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Note - see new thread started, Acts Of Violence Summary

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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#237443 - 03/12/06 06:56 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Perhaps the confusion arises when we consider wrist grabs as an initiating attack.

However, if we consider the possibility of wrist grabs occuring subsequent to the initial attack, or as a consequential response to an armed attack - i.e. as a reactionary response in order to restrain an armed attacker, then the meaning changes considerably.

If that were the case, then wrist grabs should favor the defender - i.e. as a restraining mechanism preceeding a followup technique - not the attacker.

If so, why then is there such a primary focus on responses to wrist grabs, particularly a double handed wrist grab, from a defensive perspective? Besides, it just seems foolhardy to tie up both hands in a single wrist restraint - for the aggressor.

To me, wrist grabs make more sense within the context of an armed assault, and only from the perspective of the defender, who is attempting to restrain the armed assailant, and perhaps wrest control of the weapon from them. The corollary to this then makes logical sense - i.e. if you are armed, and someone grabs your wrists to restrain you...

But from a self-defense perspective, where you are unarmed, then it doesn't make sense.... or does it?

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#237444 - 03/12/06 08:35 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: eyrie]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
But from a self-defense perspective, where you are unarmed, then it doesn't make sense.... or does it?

I agree with idea of defense while armed against the wrist grab (of course armed I think its different the wrist twril cuts the attached wrist). The unarmed or armed defense against the wrist grab is just a teaching method of covering the what if. Is it a smart move from a veteran fighters prepective maybe not but does it happen while tussling or grappling yes it does. I say it makes a lot of sense better to know then not to know. KISS should always appply.
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#237445 - 03/12/06 09:01 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
can't argue those points. still, a nice swift kick or shin rake loosens up a target nicely...then the wrist grab release is a no-brainer.

I'll make a bet: I get to grab your wrists as tight as I can, you have to escape (without kicking) before I can let go with one hand and land a strike.

winner gets a free biscuit.

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#237446 - 03/12/06 10:34 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Do I get to head butt and break your elbow? One of the technique I was taught after the head butt between the eyes/nose and dip (body shifting) up under his elbow over my shoulder now, you want him to hold tight reverse grabbing to stop him from getting away! Remember Sepia's arm break!!! You don't have to use your legs to lossen his grip a body shift and head butt will do. I bet you can't punch me holding both my wrsit or one, before my head butt stagger you into my arm break. Appropiate weapon at the rigth range. Try it in a real demo, I have, the head butts at that range is there 1st. I want honey and butter with my busicut.


Edited by Neko456 (03/12/06 10:44 PM)

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#237447 - 03/12/06 10:44 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I don't think that would work Neko. I'd see a headbutt coming and rake your shin,then I'd bite your ear off,spit in your eye,knee you in the groin,and throw you off the pedistal we're both standing on.
Go sit down,no biscuits for you.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#237448 - 03/12/06 10:49 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thats one of the previlages of being a mod, you can say what you want and make believe. A headbutt at that range is there before the shin rake also. Stop, with the nonsense if you concentrating on grabbing my wrist you are inside shin kicking range and subject to being off balance because you have to lift your leg and grab at the same time. I'll give you a busicut for imagination. I'm out.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#237449 - 03/12/06 10:49 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie,
your post reminds me of something that once happened to me:
I was innocently having a conversation with a girl at a restaurant in a town where I was working (she worked in the diner) when a total stranger walked up and sat down across from me. She ran off, and the guy told me that if he ever caught me talking to "his girl" again, he would go get his gun and kill me.

I told him "If you've got to go get your gun , Bud, you're already the loser".

What you say about wrist grabs is absolutely true... most of them occur while struggling with someone. Once they're connected, I never let them turn loose...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237450 - 03/12/06 11:11 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
neko: so your answer is body-shift and head-butt? ummm...I think Brian just ate your biscuit dude. I was going to award you it anyway for the effort.

fisttwister: You broke the first rule of self-defense...you escalated the situation with tough talk. you could have just as easily been the loser. you are lucky he was bluffing. dumb.

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#237451 - 03/12/06 11:11 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

....
I'll make a bet: I get to grab your wrists as tight as I can, you have to escape (without kicking) before I can let go with one hand and land a strike.

winner gets a free biscuit.




Make it a whole tin of Danish Butter Cookies and you've got yerself a bet.

I'll call, and raise you. No kicking, headbutting or striking from me and I'll bet you'll throw yourself.

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#237452 - 03/12/06 11:23 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Thats one of the previlages of being a mod, you can say what you want and make believe.




I was under the impression that anyone can post what they want,or make believe,see below.

All quotes from Neko456

Quote:

If attacked I can only respond by how I train, thats all I know how to do now. So there is no grab a$$ing or playing around. When I was younger I tried to be just one of the guys, but kicking people against the wall because they goosed ya or slapping their back/spine or grion dropping them to their knees, responding to a belly punch, don't make many friends. You gotta keep it real.





Quote:

Jailed for a driving violation at 20 something in the city jail these three young punks started fronting singles (didn't mess guys that had buddied up), they'd surround and stared trying to intimate. Some guys turned into a corner other just lowered their head, they'd push them and say I'll be back later. I was [censored] because someone had swicht license tags on me, and it was to a stolen vehicle ( I was in a hurry and hadn't looked at my tag).

Anyway they approached and surround me, I was already looking down, I raised my head slowly and made eye contact which each but especially the guy closest and the ring leader. His smile went away, his eyes dimmed, his stare veered away, he said nothing like a deer caught in head lights. Their confidence failed. His buddies grabbed him and pulled away. I stared at them until they took a seat. We had no more problems out of them. Seriously the closest guy (he was just a kid but you order shi%^ .. ) was gonna feel some real pain if he blinked wrong, garranteed.





it gets deeper!

Quote:

As a bouncer, guard or police officer I wasn't really trying to hurt the guys or women but they were and it was very real. A lot of counter, control and detain/arrest sometimes with help sometimes mono. Too many to count.





Quote:

Mono Mono fights/attacks were definitely real even though some only lasted a second or less then a minute. And then the skilled challenges that have taken 3-10 minutes to get any advantage. Or the Gang fights with and without weapons when I was alot younger that took 2-15 minutes, actually combat but seemed to last hours. Muggings and Strong arm robbery attempts for just being in the wrong place.

Or the a$$ kicking I gave the older guys that use to whip me when I was young and untrained, that tried to do it once trained and older. It usually never lasted long. More a conflict then a fight.





Quote:

Testing or proving that my Art worked many, many times actually Mono Mono or Multiple attacks defense 20 or 30 times, probably.

Many more before training I lost a bunch of them and won some, most to older guys some girls, when I was 5-10 yrs old. Girls are stronger then boys at that age, at least thats the excuse I use to tell myself.LOL.

After training having the confidents to walk away or ignore a challenge are some of my biggest victories, many, many times, 1 time it stopped a set up shooting attempt on my life.






Quote:

Thats were Me and U are different in some of the multiple attacks, muggings and strong arm robbery attempts after I dispatched the 1st or 2nd guy that touched me or in range I RLH. Even if they all were on the ground, Usually they didn't try to hard or didn't want to catch me.





Quote:

Trust Me you don't want to get Me angry. Really you don't.





Quote:

I hope no MA would have to carry a knife around and feel that they would have to use it. If you are in martial arts,dont carry a knife! It only shows how unreliable you think your trainig is.





Quote:

I carry a knife but hardly ever think about using it because I have other means of deterants & levels above it as a self defense system.






Quote:

I can't tell you the MAs and just good street fighters that I have seen who have taken on multiple attackers and defeated them or fought them off and survived. I am one of these people did I look goofy doing it I don't know and don't care, but I looked better the 2 or 3 that tried to mug or attack me.




Which was it? Two or three? Were they ninjas?

Quote:

Here we go, Ok I've been in bar/club instances, gang/truff fights out numbered, School hazing were the senior of a the high school beat down the freshmens, I been in bathroom muggings, I've been in bar fights as a bouncer and as a policeman. The bathroom mugging was probably the scariest because the doors shuts behind you and one guy grabs you from behind anothers trying to punuch in the face!! No where to run until you make you a hole. But it was just two guys. Usually there were three or more attackers, in these other incidents.





Quote:

Stop, with the nonsense




I'm just sayin'



Edited by BrianS (03/12/06 11:25 PM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#237453 - 03/12/06 11:39 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
eyrie...not fair. YOU have skills. lol

Brian...bwahaha. I just printed out your last post, put a nice big shinny star on it, and stuck it on my refrigerator.

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#237454 - 03/13/06 01:08 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Aw... c'mon Ed... LOL

You mean "skillz" - not "skills"! Heck no, it's merely what we 'jiang hu hao han' call 'diao jong xiao ji' - cute parlor tricks. All martial arts have a few of them.

About as cool as the parlor trick Tohei does standing on one leg with someone trying to push him over. Or the Ueshiba jo trick, with 4 big guys trying to push on it.

I have absolutely no skillz whatsoever... but I might know a few trickz....

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#237455 - 03/13/06 02:10 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: eyrie]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
That's...really funny.

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#237456 - 03/13/06 02:45 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ok I've done some things, If I wanted to I could pull some your quotes the difference is I take what you say as what it is. I don't try to demean or belittle, I was not there you did what you had to do. I didn't think this was some kind of proving ground just MA sharing ideas. I like to promote a positive image of Art not over confidence or over bearing just confidence that it does work. Not woe is me it doesn't work for me Karate or MA sucks.

Would it be better if I wrote that I don't know if it works after 27-30+ years. I don't think I've ever said this is what I'd do to a fellow poster of this forum unless it was asked/bet or mentioned what they do to me.

I personally think/know that head butt will get there 1st if someone had both of my wrist, all things being equal.

Thanks for the Bio, I take it you are a fan .

I don't think I said this "I hope no MA would have to carry a knife around and feel that they would have to use it. If you are in martial arts,dont carry a knife! It only shows how unreliable you think your trainig is."

I'm pro whatever it takes to survive. But guess I'll go with the in crowd, MA is iffy it might work for you its just a waste of time. not.


Edited by Neko456 (03/13/06 02:54 AM)
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DBAckerson

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#237457 - 06/08/06 07:58 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
gregc618 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 193
Loc: Illinois, USA
Quote:

are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?





A male attacking a smaller woman would be where you'd see this happening the most imo. I dont know htat a male would grab another male from the front in this manner however.

Definately this happens to females on a regular bases though.
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There can be only one, and its neither of us!

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#237458 - 06/08/06 09:21 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
The wrist are the easiest access point to control a person. The grooves on the sides of the wrist allow for a none slip grip even when sweaty. Simple torques, and jui-jitsu techniques can be applied. Think of wrist grabs as a jab to a boxer, its not the whole picture only the starting line. Wrist grabs lead into chock, locks, holds etc. Also, its a quick source of pain with little effort due to some pressure points lining it.

Now wrist escapes are different. They are hard to apply if the opponents wrist doubles yours. A simple downward block and hikite can escape a wrist grab because of the weakness of a thumb. There are many, many, and many techniques to escape wrist grabs but only few work with higher results.

Brandon
_________________________
Be "Water" my friend!

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#237459 - 06/08/06 12:03 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Eveal]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
I have got to disagree with you, unless youíre talking about controlling women and children and even then I donít know how easy of an access point it is unless they are not paying attention. See Iíve got pretty good-sized paws and a fair grip but the majority of the men in my school have meaty wrists and fore arms to match. And even if you are able to close the circle around their wrists with you fingers if theyíre sweaty itís like wrestling a greased pig, amusing as all get out but not to effective.

The only time I see my self using a wrist grab would be to pry hands off of my face, throat, privates and such. I would also have to say in my experience that escapes and releases are easier to apply and there are many, many workable variations with a high percentage of success.

If I want to control some one Iím going to move in from the extremities and get closer to their core so I can have a greater affect their center and balance. Iíll try to lock their arm and manipulate their head and neck a bit.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237460 - 06/08/06 01:19 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I don't have espectially big hands, but I do this in sparing all the time - I am not talking about grabing a guys wrist and taking him for a walk, I mean grabing his wirst for long enough to get him off balance or destroy his defence and get a few blows in. I think that when you grab somebodies wrist, it distracts him and causes him to lose focus, and it takes him maybe 2 seconds to figure think about getting you off his wrist, which is a long time to have somebodies attention off mark.

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#237461 - 06/08/06 04:23 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: globetrotter]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Actually I'd have to agree with you in a sparring context, it is quite common and reasonable. A quick tug on the hand or sleeve to off balance and disrupt timing.

My contention was with the ďnon slip gripĒ comment and how wrist size affects the outcome. And when I stated, ďThe only time I see myself using a wrist grab would be to pry hands off of my face, throat, privates and such.Ē I meant grabbing the offending appendage with no intention of releasing it and allowing it to return to the task of tearing little bits off me, in a SD context.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237462 - 06/08/06 06:06 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
SFKaikan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 1
Joint locking techniques (kansetsu waza) are typically practiced from a defensive posture. This allows us to focus on correct body mechanics and alignment with our partner. For beginners it may be completely static - they grab your wrist and you complete the technique. The next level is to add motion - you begin the technique as they go to grab your wrist. These are both very useful for self defense as both are realistic scenarios.

An advanced approach is to view these same applications in a more offensive light. For example, you sidestep a punch and complete kotegashi (bent wrist). Or, you block a facial punch (with age uke) and complete yonkyu (rolling their elbow over). The next level with this is to initiate the joint lock technique rather than being a response. Good points of reference for these applications are tradition jujitsu and push hands.

Push hands is best known from Tai Chi and it exists in Japanese/Okinawan practice as "Sticky Hands" (kakie). As you incorporate this into your own practice, focus on being as relaxed as possible (muscles relaxed, intention alert). Move slowly, stay very relaxed, keeping your hands along your centerline. You are first trying to "listen" to your opponent - and you can only listen if your own internal "voice" (intention) is quiet. Your physical body also needs to be relaxed in order to properly generate power from your internal body/energy (ki or chi). Listen, stick, adhere, and follow.
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Ogasawara-ha (Sakugawa Koshiki) Shorinji Ryu Karate-do

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#237463 - 06/08/06 09:26 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

And even if you are able to close the circle around their wrists with you fingers if theyíre sweaty itís like wrestling a greased pig, amusing as all get out but not to effective.




Gripping the wrists is an art form in itself. "Kote" is not only the wrist, as we know it, but includes the hand and most of the forearm, and there are many different ways to grip and twist the wrist...

How you get to the "gripping of the wrist" is also an art form that comes from blocking and "gripping attacks". If sweaty wrists are going to stop you from defending from or debilitating an attacker, then you need some more study in your methods.

Like many, who study aikido and aiki-jujutsu, and think they know all about "sankyo", the classic "sankyo" is all they know. There are 5 distinct types of sankyo, including "kote mawashi" and "nerve activated" sankyos which transcend "sweaty wrists" being the big stopper... some attack the wrist itself, others the elbow joint and shoulder.

Gripping the hand and wrist to do yonkyo or nikkyo also doesn't depend on the wrists being dry and "slip-proof"... it just requires training to grip them so the effect is ahead of the "slipping" of the technique. Any student I have ever taught can tell you that my "one instruction" is "twist the wrist"... there are so many ways, so little time...

Quote:

If I want to control some one Iím going to move in from the extremities and get closer to their core




Well, we sure have a difference of opinion there... body movement starts at the wrists and like the old song says... leg bone connected to the thigh bone... Once the wrist is twisted, it's all skeletal body mechanics.

I like fighting inside as well, but I'd rather incapacitate someone at the "peak" of their range, and then pin them so I can get closer. It will be "punishment" either way...

Oh, by the way... if you can't twist the wrist... twist the whole arm... it rotates inside the shoulder joint and has pretty much the same effect, just requires "bigger motion".

Quote:

if theyíre sweaty itís like wrestling a greased pig, amusing as all get out but not to effective.






_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237464 - 06/08/06 10:46 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

...There are 5 distinct types of sankyo, including "kote mawashi" and "nerve activated" sankyos which transcend "sweaty wrists" being the big stopper... some attack the wrist itself, others the elbow joint and shoulder.





Well, you learn something new everyday... I've always considered kote mawashi in the same category as kote gaeshi...

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#237465 - 06/08/06 11:38 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Kote mawashi is very similar to a technique in Hakko Ryu jujutsu which they call mochi mawari, done slightly higher than sankyo on the wrist and attacks the elbow joint. I know what you're talking about with the kote mawashi practiced in aikido... this is slightly different.

My style of jujutsu is based on the philosophy that the body is essentially a functional spring, and always either compressing or expanding. Using spiraling energy in one direction gives you kote gaeshi and shiho nage, in the other direction, you get ikkyo, sankyo, and kote mawashi (or mawari, if you wish). If you're doing kote gaeshi and shiho nage, you're compressing the spring (rotating toward the body) and if you're doing the other set, you're rotating the thumb side of the wrist away from the body (stretching out the spring).

Where aikido players are too wrapped up in "leading", I take a more functional approach to different levers and "helpers" that present themselves during the body mechanics of the techniques. I'm just as apt to put someone into an armlock or pin as to use a throw, just so I accomplish my purpose, dissipate the energy, and eliminate the threat.

What's really fun is to dissipate the energy into their joints... It's been described as "painful"...
...but what do I know?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237466 - 06/09/06 01:41 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
We also practice kote as part of our syllabus using kake as demonstrated in seisan and gojoshiho. As well as single and double hand grabs. However in a self defense situation where the tunnel vision clicks in and the fine motor skills go out the window these technique may be less that effective for most.

Quote:

ďHow you get to the "gripping of the wrist" is also an art form that comes from blocking and "gripping attacks". If sweaty wrists are going to stop you from defending from or debilitating an attacker, then you need some more study in your methods.Ē




My methods are just fine. Sweaty wrists donít stop me from defending or debilitating an attacker. They just make me consider other methods to defend and control.

Quote:

Well, we sure have a difference of opinion there... body movement starts at the wrists and like the old song says... leg bone connected to the thigh bone... Once the wrist is twisted, it's all skeletal body mechanics.




I'm sorry how is that again. Are you saying that you initiate body movement from your limbs as apposed to your core? Or are you saying that the best method to affect someoneís core or center is to work from the appendages inward? Personally the further out from my opponents body I am the better their chances of tagging me before I can twist their limb far enough to affect their center. The further up their arm I am the quicker I can affect their balance.

Quote:

Oh, by the way... if you can't twist the wrist... twist the whole arm... it rotates inside the shoulder joint and has pretty much the same effect, just requires "bigger motion".




That was my point when I stated, ďIf I want to control some one Iím going to move in from the extremities and get closer to their coreĒ I didnít say it in so many words but what I was getting at was to bypass the wrist and move up the arm. Lock the arm push the chin, lock the arm pull the belt, lock the arm hook the leg, lock the arm stretch the neck and pull in for a head lock, etc, etc, (gross body movement) we use this method with great success.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237467 - 06/09/06 06:36 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I'm sorry how is that again. Are you saying that you initiate body movement from your limbs as apposed to your core? Or are you saying that the best method to affect someoneís core or center is to work from the appendages inward? Personally the further out from my opponents body I am the better their chances of tagging me before I can twist their limb far enough to affect their center. The further up their arm I am the quicker I can affect their balance.




No, I initiate THEIR body movement from their wrists, and mechanically, the body works the same whether or not their wrist is extended away from, or close to their body. It might cause me to choose one technique over another, but it's quite easy to ititiate defensive action with total body control of your opponent from the wrist area.

Most karate styles practice 3 depths of blocking along the arm. At the wrist, slightly ahead of the elbow, and slightly behind the elbow... but they never explored the "weaker" part of that equation and developed the techniques that jujutsu has developed for body control at the wrists.

I'm not arguing that you can upset someone's balance at "the other two depths", but that you can be equally as effective without immediately diving inside to fight. I like fighting inside as well, where I can use elbows and knees, but I do love to be a "wristtwister"

Who would've guessed???

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237468 - 06/13/06 09:07 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Please read my first post clearly before you try to post a opinion about it.

Wrist grabs have been use in many, many real life encounters. I am not talking about westling with anyone I am talking about snatch and grabs situations. I don't intend on holding your wrist for more than the seconds it take to grab you else where. It only takes me a split second to grab a wrist and to move your body into a place that I want it so I can set you up for another technique. If you can't use a wrist grab to your advantage than you need to check your grip strength, finger positions, and your body motions. I don't think some guy off the street just came from a hard workout all sweaty just to attack you (not saying it wouldn't happen).
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#237469 - 06/14/06 07:45 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: McSensei]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

Might have something to do with the fact that in 18/19th century Okinawa people carried their money in a pouch up their sleeve.




While this may be true, in Japan during the time of the samurai, a grab to the wrist was to prevent a person from drawing their sword.

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Chanters

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#237470 - 06/15/06 04:32 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Eveal]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Actually I thought I read it pretty carefully before responding. You said;
Quote:

The wrist are the easiest access point to control a person.



The word ďcontrolĒ does pretty much imply holding onto someone for a length of time rather than a quick snatch and grab.

In the right situation I would probably use a wrist grab myself. Let me ask this though at what point in a conflict would you make this move to grab for a wrist?


And my comment about the difficulty in maintaining a grip on a sweaty wrist where a response to
Quote:

The grooves on the sides of the wrist allow for a none slip grip even when sweaty.



I agree that the joint itself provides the best grip possible, but not non slip especially when sweaty.

Quote:

I don't think some guy off the street just came from a hard workout all sweaty just to attack you (not saying it wouldn't happen).



So youíve never been down in New Orleans during the summer have you, everybody is sweaty and most are drunk.


My grip and my technique are just fine. My point was and remains that a wrist grab as an entry technique is a poor choice for opening movement
Quote:

Think of wrist grabs as a jab to a boxer, its not the whole picture only the starting line.




So as I said before the only time Iím going to use or teach a wrist grab as an opening technique is in an attempt to control the hand that has a hold of or gotten to close to my throat, balls or some other fleshy bit that I donít want removed.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237471 - 06/15/06 05:49 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
We have a technique in our school that we call "trolling for muggers" where we teach someone how to tactically "offer" the wrist to be grabbed, and then to defend using the attack. It's more a matter of "connecting" than someone actually gripping the wrist, because once they "connect", you can control a lot of their balance and movement, regardless of how they do it.

Gripping the lapel of a victim is a more likely "control" that an attacker will try, but there again, they have to connect to do it... so if you know how to control the balance and movement of your attacker from "connections", it really doesn't matter what kind of attack you face, it's just a different set of options based on that positional setup.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237472 - 06/16/06 06:28 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
First of all, the wrist is the easiest control point of a person because usually when your grabbed its by an attackers hands. I never seen anyone being attacked with a Flying scissor leg take down!

Also, I agree that control is for a length of time but how long do you need to control someone. By controlling, I mean to control their body motions for a second to open up areas that I need.

I think New Orleans is a pretty nasty place if everyone walked around sweaty all the time. I guess its just not a place for a jiu- jitsu artist.... get some statistics! These people are immuned to grabs because they stink from sweat (not likely)!

Maybe I could have changed the "none slip grip" to "semi none slip grip" because clearly your looking to far into this. I think my self and opponent awarness will let me know if I can get a lock on a guy or not. Once again, check your grip strength or method of using the technique. Also, you can use 2 hands to tighten a wrist grab.

Lastly, I hope your not teaching students wrist grabs if you have no confidence in them yourself. It will lead to poor and half assed techniques by your students.

Brandon
_________________________
Be "Water" my friend!

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#237473 - 06/16/06 02:54 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Apparently ďtrolling for muggersĒ was an unwritten part of my job description when I was doing collection work. Weathered 5 serious attempts over a 15-year time period although I was interviewed for many more. In only one instance was I grabbed and it was my own fault. After verbal exchange with a customer over his overdue status with my client he suggested that instead of him paying me maybe I should pay him. My first mistake was not to take him seriously. My second mistake was to turn my back on him and head down the stairwell from his flat. Made it about four steps when he grabbed my shoulder and demanded my money. Three other instances consisted of verbal threats of violence coming from 2 and 3 individuals. One instance the threat was made with a knife. But not once was an attempt made for my wrist.

That said Iím not against training wrist grabs or training to defend against wrist grabs. Grabs and releases are part of our syllabus and they appear frequently in our kata, but based on the infrequency of this type of attack we spend only a fraction of our time on these points. We get to the point of grab differently than you do. Rather that a ďtactical offerĒ weíll have the attacker make grab for the lead hand after an exchange of blows.

When it comes to grabs we spend more time fending and applying grabs to the lapel, shoulder upper body in general. As you mentioned this is the more common type of gripping attack that occurs.

So in the vein of this thread Iíll still say wrist grabs are just not that common.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237474 - 06/16/06 02:58 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Eveal]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
First of all, if one of my students or myself is grabbed for instance by the wrist, lapel or shoulder, I donít want the first response to be a counter grab when a simple strike would be a quicker more effective response.

So rather than control you are suggesting, redirecting or off balancing you opponent, and from my point of view I would agree that this is the preferable application of a wrist grab. But still not my first choice of an opening or a counter.

Youíre just really having problems coming to terms with the whole sweaty thing that you started, arenít you. My mention of New Orleans and the affects of heat, humidity and alcohol consumption was only to bring to your attention that people donít need to be coming out of the gym after a heavy work out in order to be covered in sweat.

Again Iím going to assume you mean NON-slip but I may be looking to far into this. And again my grip strength is fine and my technique is competent. And although they appear frequently in the Pinans as well as other kata you may know and we practice them as much as any other grab. I tend to steer away from two-handed wristlocks because it leaves one hand unattended, although there are always exceptions. And one exception would be when attempting to control a weapon. Check your tactics.

Lastly, so far we have been debating terms and technique. So whatís with the personal attack on my abilities as a technician and a teacher? Iíve been studying my chosen system for over three decades, cross-trained in a few others and have been teaching for over twenty years now. The fact that I donít place as high an emphasis or trust in wrist grabs, as you seem to does not make my students technique half assed.

Back to the thread ďWrist grabs, How common are they?Ē In my opinion, not very.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237475 - 06/21/06 08:16 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Quote:

First of all, if one of my students or myself is grabbed for instance by the wrist, lapel or shoulder, I donít want the first response to be a counter grab when a simple strike would be a quicker more effective response.




Counter striking is a great starter if being attacked. I teach countering first but if my oppenent is willing to extend a limb to me, I am willing to use it to my advantage if the oppotunity arises. Look at the "Hikite" and tell me what do it means to you. Alot of the martial artist here schooled me on using the twisting actions of the "hikite" to my advantage in pulling an opponent into my strike.

Quote:

So rather than control you are suggesting, redirecting or off balancing you opponent, and from my point of view I would agree that this is the preferable application of a wrist grab. But still not my first choice of an opening or a counter.




Great statement here. I agree that wrist grabs are not my first and foremost counter to an opponent. But I will stand by that it is an easy, quick access of control if done correctly. Also, here the basic "wristgrab" is totally different from a "wrist-lock" because my views on "wrist-locks" are just like yours so I hope we are not comfusing to two entities. Left for another discussion for us.

Quote:

Youíre just really having problems coming to terms with the whole sweaty thing that you started, arenít you. My mention of New Orleans and the affects of heat, humidity and alcohol consumption was only to bring to your attention that people donít need to be coming out of the gym after a heavy work out in order to be covered in sweat.




I am clearly stating that people are different and just people and opponents will vary in different attributes. A true "warrior" should be able to distiguish between your techniques and what to use and what not on which opponents. Plus, its just not sound to say everyone walks around sweaty all the time in New Orleans without proof.

Quote:

Again Iím going to assume you mean NON-slip but I may be looking to far into this. And again my grip strength is fine and my technique is competent. And although they appear frequently in the Pinans as well as other kata you may know and we practice them as much as any other grab. I tend to steer away from two-handed wristlocks because it leaves one hand unattended, although there are always exceptions. And one exception would be when attempting to control a weapon. Check your tactics.




Though I don't work bunkai from forms because my forms are thaught with different principles than others (and people hate my views here but its my expressions in the art I practice not theirs). We work wrist grabs with contingencies meaning, if this does not work, than you have a suitable quick alternative to make up for it. Two handed wrist grabs are only worked if you need that extra emphasis on the pain thats already applied through a torque or lock. Think of swinging a baseball bat or a golf club. Seems 2 hands are better than one if the oppotunity shows itself. Agree or Disagree?




Quote:

Lastly, so far we have been debating terms and technique. So whatís with the personal attack on my abilities as a technician and a teacher? Iíve been studying my chosen system for over three decades, cross-trained in a few others and have been teaching for over twenty years now. The fact that I donít place as high an emphasis or trust in wrist grabs, as you seem to does not make my students technique half assed.




I am only attacking your principles. I don't really know the person behind the words. Your have far more years in the arts than I and have far more teaching experience than myself so I cn see why you stand by what you believe. I am not here to try to change your mind nor steer you to the way I percieve things. I study, train, question, compete on all topics of martial arts trying to better myself in different aspects of life because this has became my life. I get better by questioning and if you give me a great answer to counter my quetion than I learn and adapt. I am totally humble here and I apologize if I offended you in anyway myfriend. I don't accept limitations I think a person can do much more than they train their mind to do.

Quote:

Back to the thread ďWrist grabs, How common are they?Ē In my opinion, not very.





I still disagree with you here.
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#237476 - 06/21/06 03:28 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Eveal]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado

Eveal

Grabs are great fun to practice in the gym and work really great in the controlled environment, and believe me when I say we do practice them and we do demonstrate a high level of proficiency. But in my opinion\experience with very few exceptions are they practical in a self-defense situation, so placing undo emphasis on them in training creates to many options for response and K.I.S.S. is key in a self-defense.

Hikite? Yes Iím familiar with it in practice, concept and use. ďIn particular, in the beginning and intermediate levels the pulling hand is essential to maximize the instigation and synchronization of large torso muscle groups that then effect the technique being delivered (Dr. Ingber, 1981).Ē Couldnít say it better so I borrowed. Came across this about 30 years ago couldnít remember the exact wording so this is borrowed from Ian Abernethy (this is out of context as I seem to remember it in conjunction with specific sequence) Ē In Gichin Funakoshiís 1925 book, ĎRentan Goshin Karate Jutsuí there is a short paragraph devoted to the use of the hikite. He writes, ďHere the meaning of the hikite, or pulling hand, is to grab the opponentís attacking hand and pull it in whilst twisting it as much as possible so that his body is forced to lead against the defender.Ē (From what Iíve heard here and there Funakoshi wasnít considered the greatest fighter) For my self and my students it is used in basics and kata to; 1. Develop the integration of muscle needed to deliver strong technique. 2. To practice the motion of blocking/brushing away an attack or grabbing and pulling. But not to restrict my idea of grabbing to my opponents wrist alone, when I could grab jacket, hair, back of neck, front of pants, you name it.

Can you describe to me what your idea of a true ďWarriorĒ is? See Iíve met a few of what Iíd call true ďwarriorsĒ and they didnít come out of the dojo, they came off the battlefields (WWII, Korea, Viet Nam.)

As for what I do and donít know about New Orleans, well I think I spent enough time drinking my way from one end of Bourbon St. to the other to post an observation (see my inlaws live down there, we stay for free.) Believe me when itís 90 degrees and 100 percent humidity everyone sweats.

You practically make my point for me when you state that you train contingencies, that when the grab doesnít work then you try something else. I would be willing to bet you that in a heated engagement a wrist grab will fail more often than it will work. So with the odds against a wrist grab technique being a showstopper I will continue to teach, train and emphasize the techniques the promise the higher success rate in ending altercations, i.e. strikes to the head and neck.

I accept limitations and learn to deal with them. Iím 51 years old Iíve got pins and plates holding me together, my vision ainít what it used to be and Iíve got partial hearing loss in my left ear. Hell yes Iíve learned to live with limitations, but I know how to work around them.

So realistically outside of training what percentage of fights, muggings, assaults or robberies that you have witnessed or been involved in were precipitated by or ended by the use of a wrist grab.
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Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237477 - 06/21/06 06:24 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Swsbuikan,
It's a great disappointment to me to find out that wrist grabs aren't effective... almost every technique I do is connected to wrist attachments at some point, and I've been "making my living" (not literally) in martial arts with them for over 40 years.

My own experience finds them to be exceptionally "motivational" against an attacker, and whether I block and go to a wrist grab, or whether I "institute" a wrist grab, most of the time, my control over an opponent is tied at some point to wrist captures and twists.

A lot of "wrist technique" comes from being able to control the attacker's balance, and then using the body mechanics of the arm, shoulder and wrist to lock the hip of the attacker. Once their hip locks, they belong to whoever has the wristlock, so while you're big on playing these techniques down, don't sell them too short.

Joint locks and wrist locks are extremely painful (or can be)... but of course, only using one technique in any martial art would make it pretty ineffective unless it was the "setup" for something else... and wrist technqiues are a great way to "lead" someone where you want them to go.

A lot of people don't understand exactly how to incorporate wrist techniques into what they do, which is why they shy away from them, but there is a mountain of self-defense that is built off wrist grabs, turns, and twists (as well as nerve techniques involving the wrist).

The wrist is structured so it can become quite flexible or very rigid, and the limitations of the wrist's flexibility is where you find most of the techniques that work really well. If you go through the techniques of jujutsu, aikido, Chin Na, and ninjutsu, you'll find enough different techniques for the wrist to have quite a "quiver" of arrows to shoot at an attacker.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because to somebody whose moniker is "Wristtwister"... there's a reason for that...

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#237478 - 06/22/06 07:37 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
just want to interject a perhaps (maybe a bit tounge in cheek ) useful current piece of news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060621/sc_space/thesweatiestcitiesinamerica

ok...back to the discussion....

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#237479 - 06/22/06 01:33 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
I feel horrible now, I feel like I broke the news to a kid that there is no Santa Claus. You have my humblest apologies for my slip. Just kidding a bit.

On a serious note, like I said ďmy opinion/experienceĒ working from my skill sets as an okinawan style Karate ka, training a standard karate syllabus. Wrist grabs are only a small part of our art and I would rely on my striking skills first and foremost, followed by throws sweeps and reaps.

I know that many LEO and Doorman train in jujitsu and such to enable them to control unruly individuals, because if they to go to blows with the other party it would lead to litigation. But when the going gets tough they revert to control through the use of blunt trauma, whether it is fists, sap, asp, club or knuckle-duster.

And I totally agree with you that a properly applied wristlock is extremely painful and will induce compliance in most people. And that is why LEO train such skills.

Just curious have you ever come across someone who is hyper flexiv (I believe that is the correct term) or a non-responder? I had a student who was both; there wasnít a spot on his back he could not scratch, could bend his wrist backward or forward until his fingers touched his arm, rotate his arm beyond 180, and could not be submitted through pain compliance that would have others crying for mercy. He is not my only experience with such, over the years I have come across many non-responders (mostly men) and a few people that where hyper-flexiv (mostly women) but Nick was the only one Iíve run into who was both.

And sincerely I admire your art and honestly respect the time that you have devoted to it. And happily agree to continue disagreeing with you on this point. Because as someone who is reffered to loving by my family and friends as an a$$hole, I rarely see eye to eye with anyone.

Yours in Karate
Pat OíBrien
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Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#237480 - 06/22/06 06:40 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: swseibukan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

On a serious note, like I said ďmy opinion/experienceĒ working from my skill sets as an okinawan style Karate ka, training a standard karate syllabus.




I understand that, and still appreciate the use of "blunt force" as well. I'll thump somebody in a heartbeat while I'm applying one of those wristlocks . I teach my students to "hit their opponent at every opportunity" throughout the course of a technique... just to get their attention

Quote:

Just curious have you ever come across someone who is hyper flexiv (I believe that is the correct term) or a non-responder?




Yes, and that's when the administration of good old blunt force is my first option rather than an accessory. We've got a guy in our Aikido class that is like that, but when I do a technique on him, I "add a little pressure" on a pressure point, and he moves right along. While I'm crushed to learn about Santa Claus, I'm not niaeve about people being "immune" to a particular type of technique.

We had a guy who showed up at Aikido class once that loaded trucks for a living, and he was strong beyond words... but he was so inflexible that you only had to get outside his "range of motion" a little, and he was in excruciating pain... so what worked on normal people wouldn't work on him, but taking a step outside his "strength zone" and he was as helpless as a puppy. Personally, I think you find some of that in all martial arts.

I've only run across one guy who was like the one you mentioned, who was a total "non-responder", but that's one I used "body mechanics" on to turn him into compliance. Fortunately, everybody's body works the same way and is connected together in the same places, so mechanically, they're usually pretty much the same. I haven't found anybody that when I pushed their elbows, it didn't rotate their shoulders, so there's hope there if nothing else.

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#237481 - 07/07/06 11:54 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?


I donít think they are common



think from an attackers point of view...a single wrist grab gives the defender as much advantage as the attacker, since one hand is still available for a double wrist grab


I think this can be used to the defenders advantage, .



, wouldn't even a fake kick to the nuts be enough for an attacker to instictively let go, or at least bend forward off-balancing themselves for an easier escape?

Yes I agree but making the attacker grab the wrists can be to the defenders advantage



but even before the wrist grab, while the aggresor is reaching out to grab your wrists, they are vulnerable. any person whos trained for a bit, would likely react prior to the person getting a full grip on. why then are there all of these interpretations/books/articles/etc flying around about escaping from stand-up wrist grabs?

I think to sell books and to make out that martial arts doesnít rely on basics done in thousands.


I't would be more impressive to hear how a Woman could escape a double wrist grab while she was on her back, being overpowered by a larger Man....that, to me, would be a much more likely scenario of double wrist grabs.


Totally agree,


also as an aside... everytime I see someone interpret bunkai from kata as defense against a wrist grab, I can think of 2 more interpretations for the same movement that are against much more aggressive attacks.

what are your collective thoughts on this from a self-defense perspective...regardless of your Art.


I think wrist locks have their uses alongside other techniques but stand alone wrist locks are rare and hard to implement.

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#237482 - 07/07/06 01:35 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?



Quite often, an aggressor will grab the wrist of a victim with their left hand (holding the victim's right wrist) to prevent a "power response". If it is "2 on 1", they will normally grab both wrists.

Quote:

think from an attackers point of view...a single wrist grab gives the defender as much advantage as the attacker, since one hand is still available for a double wrist grab




The attacker is looking for a quick advantage with the wrist grab, and slowing down a person's "power side" is just that little bit of advantage they want. They can also change the angle of attack by pulling down or forward with the wrist, or pushing it backward to upset the victim's balance.

Quote:

I think this can be used to the defenders advantage, .




Absolutely, that's why we train using wrist grabs, bear hugs, etc. Having a "pre-planned response" is what training's all about. My student's are taught that if someone grabs you, never let them turn loose, and use the connection to control their balance and structure to your advantage.

Quote:

I think wrist locks have their uses alongside other techniques but stand alone wrist locks are rare and hard to implement.




Well, I hate to disagree with you, but the sales pitch won't work here. Twisting the wrist correctly is a dynamic way of controlling both balance, structure, and pain implementation. The problems arise when people think that they are twisting the wrist when they aren't.

There are 8 bones in the wrist, and until those bones are all twisted to their max, you haven't even begun to "twist the wrist". When those bones "lock", it begins to affect the elbow, shoulder, hips, the person's spinal alignment, balance, and ability to change their foot position... other than that, it doesn't do anything.

Twisting the hand isn't the same as twisting the wrist, and I see people all the time trying to turn the hand instead of the wrist and looking like a deer in the headlights about why their technique doesn't work. The wrist actually is implemented from the top third of the hand, through the wrist joint and about 5 inches up the arm (kote), and it affects the median nerve when twisted; the elbow joint as the radius bone is rotated around the ulna, which mechanically drives the elbow and shoulder joint, and forces the hip to readjust, eventually locking the hip and upsetting the person's balance.

Now, that being said, there are dozens of "tricks" that can be used to force the wrist to turn from the hand, but technique-wise, the wrist is as I have described it and functions as I have described. I'm sure Eyrie or I would be glad to show you how that can be used to put you in the "launch" mode...

Street muggers like to overpower people, and a wrist grab is used just like a "surprise attack" is used... to upset the victim's response. When the response is well timed and correct, the attacker's usually have a response themselves... especially if you launch them onto a sidewalk...

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#237483 - 07/07/06 06:51 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Well, I hate to disagree with you, but the sales pitch won't work here. Twisting the wrist correctly is a dynamic way of controlling both balance, structure, and pain implementation. The problems arise when people think that they are twisting the wrist when they aren't.


Hi

Sales pitch? I as Kung fu said have nothing to sell.
You seem to be a man who has studied wrist twisting to a great degree.

When I refered to

Yes I agree but making the attacker grab the wrists can be to the defenders advantage

I was refering to the fact that in a self defence situation with a half wit street fighter and during a trade of blows,

If I were defending myself(in between strikes or strike attempts)and close enough and had the chance
to grab a tender part of a persons anatomy with one hand and strike(successfull) with the other then either that would be the end of a self defence confrontation or that person would (unsuccessfull strike grab) as a natural response grab my wrist.(most of the time) (has been up to now)


There fore in effect giving me some domination of the fight at that stage which is what I tend to look for.



One of the techniqese I would tend to use in a self defence situation if my wrist is grabbed,

I block/strike their face(Block/cover from their striking hand) or groin kick

Grab their wrist, block/strike either the face or adjoining areas or their elbow joint depending on the situation, then use a palm heel/forearm to their elbow, poss strike again poss not, then attempt to put their elbow either my under arm/ chest or use my knee on their elbow and end of self defence.

The other one in a self defence situation is block/ strike grab the little finger and break

For realistic self defence
There are so many different ways that I have the use of mainly strikes kicks and or throws

Interesting about your way of thinking with a wrist lock, and to be honest reading what you wrote I poss donít put on wrist locks, why? Because I have had a lot of people try to put a wrist lock on me and Im afraid they were either pathetic or I could hack the pain long enough to strike.

How ever I wont write anything off.
I learnt to strangle( for use in competition of course. I would never dream of using it in self defence unless life threatening) years ago from a 69 year old bag of bones who could put som eone to sleep in micro seconds. His knowledge of anatomy was good.


I wouldnt let 2 people get that close to grab my wrists.
If i did then in a self defence scenario it would be strikes


So how do you use your wrist locks?

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#237484 - 07/07/06 07:52 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I think wrist locks have their uses alongside other techniques but stand alone wrist locks are rare and hard to implement.




It appears that you haven't been to an Aikido or Jujutsu school to research this notion (not Brazilian Jujutsu). You will find a whole different understanding of twisting the wrist and wristlocks if you do.

As an attacker, you go from hero to zero in an instant if any good aikidoka or jujustu-ka ever touches your wrist, and you will remember the experience forever. The tendency is to change your attitude by changing your altitude, and while you seem to think that you would be in control, if they're touching your wrist, they're driving the bus from that point.

Adding blunt force such as face strikes and hits to vital points is also an "extra added attraction" that comes with the wristlocks and throws. I can't tell you how many karate and kung fu players I've trained with over the years that have a whole new "understanding" of wristlocks from the experience of training with me and others in Aikido and jujutsu. Every one of them gained "perspective"...

As for describing techniques on the board, unless you had someone experienced in the art to show you what to do, it's very unlikely you'd get it right or realize the full effect (no disrespect intended). It's something that once you experience it, you understand what's going on... until then, you're guessing.
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#237485 - 07/07/06 08:19 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Try a wrist lock as icing on the cake to an arm bar and throw.

Or a wrist lock against someone not expecting a wrist lock. Or a wrist lock without holding back, let them try to club you with their battered arm after you've shattered their wrist and possibly de-aligned the bones of their lower arm.

There's all kinds of wrist locks too, not just the standard sideways twisty kind. Try holding someone's arms in the 'chicken wing' position by pressing their hands down hard toward their inner forearms. Even the strongest men can't even move their arms at all in this position because of the pressure and pain. Great arresting technique, people don't even bother to struggle when you get them into this position, especially if you get your knees on their elbows to lock their elbow up.

If you take someone's balance and apply a wrist lock it's usually enough to send someone flying a couple feet onto their back/front. And you still can maintain control of their arm.

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#237486 - 07/08/06 03:57 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Try holding someone's arms in the 'chicken wing' position by pressing their hands down hard toward their inner forearms. Even the strongest men can't even move their arms at all in this position because of the pressure and pain.




For anyone reading this: DO NOT bet your safety on the above assumption!
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#237487 - 07/08/06 08:24 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI, First of all this is not meant to be style bashing, . I go to a dojo to train but I need to know something will work otherwise I wont train it.

It appears that you haven't been to an Aikido or Jujutsu school to research this notion (not Brazilian Jujutsu). You will find a whole different understanding of twisting the wrist and wristlocks if you do.


I did.




As an attacker, you go from hero to zero in an instant if any good aikidoka or jujustu-ka ever touches your wrist, and you will remember the experience forever. The tendency is to change your attitude by changing your altitude, and while you seem to think that you would be in control, if they're touching your wrist, they're driving the bus from that point.

Didnít happen.

At the local Sat morning meeting of MMAís I asked to train with an aikido black belt.

Here is what I expereinced

If I stood and let him take my wrist and waited around and did nothing while he put me in anti ecstasy then the wrist lock he used did work

But

Unfortunately I am not that type of person. After he showed me the effective ness of the wrist lock the next time and time after while your man is trying to wrist lock me he was wide open to head./ neck shots


Ok He could teach me an effective wrist lock and then I would poss work out myself where I could use it, but Iím sorry to say that I still think the practical application in other words getting it on(not the wrist lock that would work if put one) is some what vague


The time here is 2.20 afternoon.


Edited by ANDY44 (07/08/06 09:29 AM)

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#237488 - 07/08/06 08:49 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: paradoxbox]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Or a wrist lock against someone not expecting a wrist lock.




Fortunately, most everyone fighting doesn't realize how wrist locks work, or how well they work, so they're fair game. Nobody is going to offer their wrist if they're expecting a wristlock...

Quote:

There's all kinds of wrist locks too, not just the standard sideways twisty kind.




Thanks... I'll study up on those...

Quote:

If you take someone's balance and apply a wrist lock it's usually enough to send someone flying a couple feet onto their back/front. And you still can maintain control of their arm.




If you take someone's balance, you can throw them with one finger by making it their only option. All jujutsu and Aikido techniques utilize this, and the wristlocks are simply control techniques to effect a "pin". As for using wristlocks, they effectively use the arm as a spring, and the selection of techniques depends on whether you spiral the energy to expand or compress the arm... and the kind of wristlock you use is dependent on that choice.

What you obviously do is apply wristlocks after you have someone in an armlock... and if I'm not mistaken, you're probably applying "finger locks", etc. as well... which are not wristlocks... effective, but not wristlocks. It's a common mistake to call anything done with the hand a "wristlock", but wristlocks are specific and designed from the idea of locking the 8 bones in the wrist... not playing with the hands after immobilizing the arm.

And just for the record, I wouldn't depend on that "chicken wing" technique to be nearly as effective as you seem to think it is...

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#237489 - 07/08/06 09:16 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


Edited by ANDY44 (07/08/06 09:31 AM)

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#237490 - 07/08/06 10:12 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I think we were replying at the same time, so the conversation got mixed, but if you trained with an Aikido black belt who couldn't defend against your punches, etc. you need to find a different school of Aikido to mark your efforts against. Now, I can see that happening if you limited him to only using wristlocks for defense, but if it's "open book" types of defense for the Aikidoka, you'll probably get thrown and still end up in one of those pins I'm talking about.

The problem with a lot of these kinds of discussions, is that you limit one side to one technique and it's open season on the other side... and you know as well as I do that no one technique works against everything. Find a school where the Aikidoka do a lot of randori, and you'll have a completely different experience.

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#237491 - 07/09/06 06:29 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi wrist twister

Errrmm. Tongue in cheek. If your not to busy?

I found this website and If you would like to discuss this topic then thanks if not then I understand.

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/video.htm

Aihanmi iriminage

I have sort of used this for years, except i would move to the side of the opponent and it would be a strike/throw

Katadori kokyuho
Ditto

Palm heel strike to the jaw/throw



Morotedori iriminage
What kind of finger /wrist? lock is he using here ?
Can you give me the name?
before the neck take down?
.


Some of the methods of throws he uses (minus wrist locks?) I have used in karate for years although in a more power orientated form.

Problem is he lives in the Czech Republic. And \I donít speak Czech

Perhaps if you could give a bit of light on the matter?

Thanks

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#237492 - 07/09/06 09:31 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Andy, first of all, I'm not trying to be "mystical" here, but a lot of what you ask isn't available in words... it's a "ki application" thing, and you have to experience it rather than talk about it.

Aihanmi iriminage

Hanmi is the footwork or "stance" of Aikido, and is directly off swordfighting. Ai is "same side". Iriminage is an "entering throw".

Since "blending" and "avoiding" are two different things, it's difficult to explain the technique in the sense that you practice it. Where you "side step" to avoid the attack, the aikidoka will "blend" with the attack, and enter the attacker's space. Once there, he will redirect or blend with the attacker's ki, and throw from that blending by overextending the attacker's balance, or redirecting their motion. Now, some schools never hit, but I teach students to strike on every technique, so when the opening is there, the attacker is going to get hit.

Almost any technique that isn't one of the "named" techniques in Aikido is "kokyuho", or "breath and timing throw", so don't think that descriptions are going to help in that effort. There must be a million different types of "kokyuho" throws in Aikido.

Morotedori Iriminage
That particular throw is a "ki redirection" throw. If you watch the attacker, they will go up on their toes when their ki is redirected, and all that remains to do is to point them in a direction where they have no support in order to throw. The attacker is holding with both hands (morotedori) like they were holding a baseball bat, and I teach students to simply cut to the elbow of either arm once they are "up"... striking (of course) at the same time as the throw.

There is no "finger lock" employed, it is a simple matter of "accepting their ki" and redirecting it along their skeleton to off balance them. No tricks, just "ki flow" redirection.

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#237493 - 07/09/06 10:52 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
As we are on the subject of kokyu-ho "techniques", I would like to point out that quite often, there is some confusion as to how to differentiate one kokyunage to another. The confusing aspect is that people often look at it as a specific "technique", rather than a general method.

The "technique" is NOT the technique - if that makes sense? The "technique" is in HOW the technique is applied, i.e. using kokyu power (or kokyo rokyu).

As for wrist grabs, I think I've mentioned this numerous times before - (in Aikido at least) it's a TRAINING method - NOT a technique. The training is to FEEL the connection to the person's center thru the wrist.

FWIW

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#237494 - 07/09/06 11:37 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
paradoxbox Offline
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For those who don't subscribe to the ki theory the basic ideas of these lock-throws are to align the pain and direction of balance in a way that makes it extremely easy to control an opponent and the way the opponent falls when thrown. The feeling of ki in a throw / lock could possibly be described as the spot, in realtime, you want your opponent to move to and the means of getting him there.

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#237495 - 07/10/06 09:57 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Andy, first of all, I'm not trying to be "mystical" here, but a lot of what you ask isn't available in words... it's a "ki application" thing, and you have to experience it rather than talk about it.


I dont get it, particuler the ki thing.
I think I can see some learning curves and also some mystic curves.Not to sure I want to know about the the mystic curves.
The outcome of the guy demonstrating on vidio might be different against a trained fighter with some of the techniques he shows.But Its easy to speculate and I am resisting my thoughts based on pure testosterone. Well almost. I think I would have to find some one like him and let him demonstrate before I was convinced.


I can understand throwing/counter techniques by using the opponents momentum and redirecting his energy direction..
I can understand applying pain to control an opponent but I think the mystic stuff,, naaaa,

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#237496 - 07/10/06 10:08 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: eyrie]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
As for wrist grabs, I think I've mentioned this numerous times before - (in Aikido at least) it's a TRAINING method - NOT a technique. The training is to FEEL the connection to the person's center thru the wrist.


Hi

Could you explain this?

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#237497 - 07/10/06 10:48 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I dont get it, particuler the ki thing.




I wouldn't expect you to, unless you had some training. The big disadvantage to the internet board is that everybody thinks it's a shortcut to knowing everything. Martial arts are learned through the body, and no amount of talk, reading, or internet search engines will ever change that. It's a good place to enhance your knowledge, but you aren't going to learn martial arts reading instructions on the internet.

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#237498 - 07/10/06 11:24 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Yep I know that.I do know some thing of martial arts. the thing with the internet is that some times knowledge is easier to come by.

Makes a change from the daily work outs, 7 days a week of constant maki wari/bag work/ basics/kata/ and the 5 day a week of the fore mentioned plus partner work and doesnt hurt as much as the 2 sessions a week of full contact stand up sparring/grappling.


But some where amongst that lot i will have to work on wrist locks

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#237499 - 07/11/06 01:58 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Andy, it may help if you replace 'ki thing' with 'moving your center of gravity in relation to your opponents center of gravity while manipulating both so that it tactically puts you in a dominating position of leverage.'

It goes deeper than that without getting too weird with terminology, but if you think of it that way instead of 'energy' it might help. or think of ki as the kinetic energy of water.

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#237500 - 07/11/06 06:56 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
With a name like Wristtwister, you can see that I've spent some time working on wristlocks, and techniques involving the wrist. Method has a lot to do with what you accomplish with wristlocks, and in "twisting the wrist" in general. They require knowledge of body mechanics, nerve locations, balance and kuzushi, "direction of flow", etc. so it's not simply "twisting the wrist" or "locking the wrist".

When you add the hand, the finger locks, and Chin Na types of techniques, utilizing arm locks derived from the wrist locks, it makes touching someone like petting a poisonous snake... you can do it, but you better be careful...

You'll find wristlocks in karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, and almost any other martial art you get involved in. Their theories differ, and applications differ, but the results are usually the same because the body doesn't change, and the body dynamics of doing the same thing a different way won't change much.

Like any other technique, there's no "one wristlock" that has it all, so the more arrows in your quiver, the better chance you will have when "opportunity" knocks to utilize them. I suggest finding a good jujutsu (classical) or Aikido school and spend some time learning wristlocks. They can become a study in themselves, and you'll find that in any fight, someone is going to offer you their hand... either in a fist, an open hand, a grab, or a strike. Knowing what to do with it can be lots of fun...

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#237501 - 07/11/06 11:22 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
schanne Offline
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Loc: Woodbury NJ
It's a good idea to teach kids how to escape from an adult situation, such as someone trying to drag a child to a car by the wrist, lapel or something similar. As for an adult to adult, personally there are many kinds of wrist grab techniques but in a real life situation I have never seen anyone ever grab someone wrist that wanted to start a confrontation. 99% of the fight I have witnessed have begun with a shove or fingers pointed in someones face.
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#237502 - 07/11/06 06:55 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: schanne]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I agree with teaching kids to protect themselves, but there's more to "wrist" techniques than just "wrist grabs".
I agree that most fights start as you mentioned, but that doesn't preclude somebody from using wrist techniques to protect from those attacks.

As a "defender", I'm just as apt to grab their wrist and "do my thing" as they are to grab my wrist, lapel, or try to punch my lights out. Wrist captures and wrist control techniques don't always come from an attack to the wrist... in fact, I probably know more techniques from other attacks than from "wrist attacks"... but they are still applied at the attacker's wrist.

It's like me saying all karate attacks are to the head... it ain't happenin', and discounting the defenses to any other part of the body because the focus is hitting the head. Where you punch or where you grab is a matter of what you're trying to do, and how you lead the attacker into your trap.

I once did a seminar where I taught people to capture somebody's arms and wrists in the crease of their elbows, and had seven or eight technqiues from that unique trapping method, so the "conventional thinking" isn't always right about fighting. In most cases, it's the unconventional things that people can't stop, if they're well thought out and practiced.

I teach "conventional wrist techniques" most of the time, but there are a number of wrist attacks that can be done with unconventional methods that are excruciating. Very simple weapon attacks to the wrist can totally disable somebody without much effort, so it takes some study to understand what control of the wrist entails.

A good wrist technique is a good lead-in to all kinds of other technqiues, such as arm locks, throws, pins, strikes... and on and on. Just like you don't use only one punch, don't limit "wrist attacks" to linear thinking. There are just too many good ways to use the wrist for self defense to sell it short...

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#237503 - 07/12/06 08:38 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
schanne Offline
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Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Good point
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#237504 - 07/12/06 09:00 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Ok while were on the topic lets go over some wrist grab techniques. Cross grab, right to right, left to left hand, standing next to your uke, from behind etc. I will go first with a typical Hapkido cross grab. Uke cross grabs your wrist, his right to your right. Now that your zone has been enterd and your wrist has been grabed your uke grab hand is stabilized/held down with your left hand so he can not let go. Your hand/wrist now preforms a small clockwise motion and your hand execute a small circle sudo on top of your ukes wrist which is a wrist lock, your fingers should be pointed at your opponent. Most importantly your still holding your uke hand in place with your left hand. Your body can step back or from side to side to counter any kind of evassive movement. This technique is very effective and painfull, it will drop your uke to his knees in seconds. It's very difficult to accually explain a self defense technique over the internet without hands on.... bare with explanation.
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#237505 - 07/12/06 08:20 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: schanne]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Steve,
rather than concentrating on "wrist grabs", focus your study on "attachment and kuzushi", so that anywhere you're grabbed you are able to disorient your attacker and break their structure. Nobody likes to fight "off balance", and if you use whatever attachment you have with the attacker, from blocking a punch to being grabbed, you use it to disable your opponent and lead them wherever you want them to go.

Like I said, there are a million different ways to use that mechanical attachment, whether at the wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc. to off-balance and redirect your attacker's energy. Using that, and simple body mechanics, you should be able to handle most situations without effort.

"All techniques work sometimes... good techniques work whenever you use them"... and that's because you use the mechanical attachment, personal structure of your opponent, and his energy against him. We could write books about "wrist techniques", and still not cover them all, but it doesn't take much training to learn how to use "attachment" and "kuzushi" to keep someone off balance long enough to protect yourself.



Edited by wristtwister (07/12/06 11:20 PM)
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#237506 - 07/13/06 10:51 AM Re: [Re: wristtwister]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
The only reason I'm consentrating on the wrist grab is because it was the topic "Wrist grabs: how common are they?"

Although I understand your point completley and will heed your advice......Oss
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#237507 - 07/13/06 07:13 PM Re:Wrist grabs [Re: schanne]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
If you make them the first thing you do, they're very common

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#237508 - 11/27/06 10:20 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: globetrotter]
Chen Zen Offline
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Small circle manipulation. Ive been known to use it from time to time. Against someone with even decent training it tends to be little more than a dstraction leading to some other attack. With that said, Ive never been wrist grabbed outside of the dojo, in practice. Not something I actively train against either. Why should I when its likely that he will let go when I punch him in the face with my free hand?
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#237509 - 12/07/06 07:04 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MA_Student Offline
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Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 29
Wrist grabs aren't that common IMHO. My instructor teaches us techniques by grabbing the wrist first so you learn the technique, and then you kind of have to learn how to apply it yourself.

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#237510 - 12/19/06 12:19 PM wrist: grab and stab [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Posts: 6664
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Never experienced it in real life...but had a 'grab and stab' dream last...so vivid it woke me up yelling 'Help me!'

The scenario has been bugging me all day...and I keep trying to apply my limited knowledge to it. I'll certainly be asking for help in the next class to resolve the particulars....even if it never occurs in reality.

Motto: be prepared.

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#237511 - 12/21/06 02:16 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: harlan]
tkd_high_green Offline
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I can't say how common they are in violent situations, but I have had to use basic wrist releases many times in the past, and is probably the MA technique that I've used the most.

Situation: Swarm of kids in a pool... need I say more? lol

Laura

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#237512 - 12/21/06 02:19 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: tkd_high_green]
harlan Offline
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Two hands in motion...one a grab...the other a stab.

Having faced a knife before...it doesn't translate to a pool scene for me. Sorry.

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#237513 - 12/21/06 04:49 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: harlan]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
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In such a situation, there's only one way to respond quickly enough to save yourself. Grab the blade with your free hand or get your free arm between the blade and its target. You'll definitely be going to hospital and you may lose the use of your arm but you may survive.

Whatever you do to the guy while you've got the blade, it'd better be at least near fatal if you want a chance of surviving such a situation.

I think that's the reality of it. Prevention is better than cure.

Even minus the wrist grab, this situation is extremely dangerous and warrants the use of appropriately lethal force.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/21/06 04:53 PM)
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#237514 - 12/21/06 09:38 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
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It depends on how he grabs you, as to whether or not you could effectively put space between the blade and yourself with your free arm. The truth of the matter is that you will, most likely, get cut.

When he makes the grab, he must be quite close to you and planted firmly on the ground so he can pull you to him or hold you in place.This is his mistake and you must make him pay for it by stomping his knee and crushing it. If this does not break his leg, it will force him to let go and step backwards at which point you must press the attack. If not you give him chance to square off and then the odds are against you since he is armed. Pressure him with a flurry of punches to the face then knees and elbows. Most likely he will have dropped the knife. Now he is on the defensive and you own him.
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#237515 - 12/22/06 01:56 AM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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There are plenty of techniques you can use but the one which I think most people will probably succeed with is to accept that they're going to get cut and get something non-vital between that blade and their vital organs. Then again, I don't know much about knife defense so I probably shouldn't be talking. However, most "knife defense" training I've seen involves an attacker miles away from the defender, regardless of the technique. When grappling or clinch is involved, things change just a bit. I think the marker pen training test is the best one to see what technique works best for an individual.

Most likely, a person wouldn't even see the knife if it were being drawn at such close range by surprise and so would probably attempt a block or a grab anyway.
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#237516 - 12/22/06 09:40 AM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Leo_E_49]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
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Yes. I've grabbed a blade. The first thing they do is retract it...so be prepared mentally to lose some fingers. Fortunately for me...I did not.

I didn't see it earlier in the thread (guess I'll have to go over it again)...but are there any statistics on this topic (the use of wristgrab in assaults)?

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#237517 - 12/22/06 12:48 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
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I agree. Like I said, you will be cut.

Lets look at the situation a little closer. Its going to take some imagination so get you caps on kiddies!

Ok first scenario, He grabs your left wrist with his right hand and attempts to stab you with his left. Like you said Leo, get your arm in there between the blade and your guts. This will likely work since 3 out of 4 people are right handed. Your right, should in theory, be faster than his left. So so far you have managed to not get stabbed but you must address the opponent. Not just the knife. Right now, both of your hands are occupied. Also he can cut you on the way back when withdrawing the knife, or go for the cut or stab in an easier location, such as the inside of your elbow since he has your wrist grabbed. If he does this, your arm is useless, you have less defensive measures, and are bleeding like a stuck pig with an enemy hungry for blood.

Now lets assum he has grabbed your left wrist with his left hand. This is much smarter on his part. Now he has an unobstructed shot towards your ribs,lungs,kidneys, neck and spine. Your other arm is much to far away to be an effective tool to block with. Since a person can stab as fast as they can punch, your about to take a hit somewhere.

The grab, must be addressed right from the beginning. Its a much larger threat than the knife because it forces you to go on the defensive against an armed opponent. I dont want to be on the defensive versus any opponent. Thats why I gave the answer i gave earlier. This will change the roles of the combatants so to speak. Instead of you being on the defensive, he is, since you broke off his initial attack and answered with one of your own. Whether you choose to keep attacking or run is up to you, but both are viable options if you successfully damage his structure and mobility.
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#237518 - 12/22/06 01:01 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Chen Zen]
harlan Offline
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Posts: 6664
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Exactly...this was the scenario in my dream. Bugged me for days.

Quote:

Now lets assum he has grabbed your left wrist with his left hand. This is much smarter on his part. Now he has an unobstructed shot towards your ribs,lungs,kidneys, neck and spine. Your other arm is much to far away to be an effective tool to block with. Since a person can stab as fast as they can punch, your about to take a hit somewhere.

The grab, must be addressed right from the beginning. Its a much larger threat than the knife because it forces you to go on the defensive against an armed opponent. I dont want to be on the defensive versus any opponent. Thats why I gave the answer i gave earlier. This will change the roles of the combatants so to speak. Instead of you being on the defensive, he is, since you broke off his initial attack and answered with one of your own. Whether you choose to keep attacking or run is up to you, but both are viable options if you successfully damage his structure and mobility.



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#237519 - 12/22/06 01:42 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?

what are your collective thoughts on this from a self-defense perspective...regardless of your Art.





I can't believe that I've not posted on this thread at least once(imagine that?!) but Iíd like to share my thoughts.

Please excuse me for not having read the entire thread and perhaps only being somewhat redundant with what Iím about to add here...

IMO, wrist grabs can be quite common simply because the CLINCH is common in real fights. Itís HOW this clinch is fought that determines what goes down.

However, people will both grab and strike in the clinch and quite often thatís done at the same time. Obviously any fight will be dynamic and what happens will constantly change.

Again, simply because the clinch happens in real altercations, wrist grabbing happens (head grabbing/head locks happen as well). The more skilled the individual is, the more itís going to happen (wrist grabbing, not head locking).

Wrist grabs are something that we train from the clinch on almost a nightly basis. Itís that important to do, both from an offensive as well as a defensive perspective. Itís the beginning of any decent pummeling.

From a street fighting perspective, knowledge of hand fighting/wrist grabbing is of critical importance. Many altercations begin face to face on the street, particularly in crowds. In those situations, fights can start OUT as wrist grabbing. This may happen simply because of proximity.

If youíre carrying weapons or, you know your opponent is, hand-fighting can go a long way to shut down the draw of the weapon before it comes into play. Even after the draw, hand fighting is still important to shut down the weapon arm (and yes, you will be cut in all likelihood, but itís better to lose a limb than your life).

Just some thoughts.



-John

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#237520 - 12/22/06 02:04 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Yes. I've grabbed a blade. The first thing they do is retract it...so be prepared mentally to lose some fingers. Fortunately for me...I did not.

I didn't see it earlier in the thread (guess I'll have to go over it again)...but are there any statistics on this topic (the use of wristgrab in assaults)?




For reference -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15836703
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#237521 - 12/23/06 01:28 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ambiguity Offline
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Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
whilst the wrist grab or like has many applications,i can honestly say that in all the street fights ive seen or been involved in (i had a mispent youth)ive yet to see an aggresor grab someone by the wrist,its normally an act of anger which makes a shirt front,hair or throat grab much more common.
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#237522 - 12/23/06 03:18 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ambiguity]
drgndrew Offline
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i also have only skimmed the posts sorry I apologise for any repetition or misunderstanding on my part.

Wrist grabs are more common in a male (the perpetrator) and a female ( the victim). it is usually as an act of control either by leading or dragging away or by pinning.

With the grab and knife, the grab is more likely to occur on the upper arm, shoulder and lapel areas, as this with give a more controlled grab to drive the blade home. yes it can occur on the wrist but the wrist is a more moveable target and thus harder to control.

If it happens then they are going try to pull you towards them ( makes sense) What you need to do put his body between your wrist (being grabbed) and his knife. it's not easy to describe without a demo, but Aikidoka may understand what I mean as should most Ju JutsuKa. put simply you anchor is hand on your wrist , move to the outside of it and bring the entire side of his body downward using a kind of arm-bar, you'll need to rotate and use your foot work to keep his body between you and the knife, but it can be done. the beauty of it is it doesn't matter whether he is trying to knife you or punch you the same principles apply.

I normally prefer not to prescribe techniques as such but you should see some basic principles in the above "demo". The other principle would be to control the weapon arm directly. I would not recommend grabbing the blade its self, only as a last resort to prevent your death., he will simply withdraw the blade cut up you hand and leave it even less useable.

Every bit of advice can help, just think realistically, I don't claim to have have all the answers, no-one does ( unless god himself comes downs and opens a dojo) but if we all work together , other advice and opinions and strive to improve the readers safety then we cant go wrong.
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#237523 - 12/23/06 03:24 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
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Woops forgot to add

Wrist grab defenses were originally significant to the Bushi to prevent their enemy immobolising the weapon hand and thus preventing the drawing of their Katana. Can you see a similarity with modern LEO's and firearms retention.
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#237524 - 01/11/07 12:13 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: JKogas]
brocksampson Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Savannah, GA
JKogas, you said it before I could, the clinch is the missing element that makes grabs of any kind a realistic and serious attack. As implied at the beginning of the thread, it's not all that common that an attacker will just assault you by grabbing an arm (though possible). It's in the midst of trying to defend yourself that your attacker or his sidekick will likely grab you.
Well said.
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#237525 - 01/15/07 03:10 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Eternal_Student Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
Sorry I didn't read all 16 pages of replies, so this may not be new.

Generally, people don't START o fight with a wristgrab, but when in a grappling/ grabbing situation (where both persons are struggling), when one person's hand comes free, he/she often attempts a close in strike. THAT is when the other person grabs the striking wrist (to prevent getting hit by that hand again).

Also, grabbing the wrist CAN be the biggest mistake one can make!

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#237526 - 02/04/07 08:41 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: wristtwister]
Unsu Offline
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Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
The thumb is the weak link in a wrist grab. Work against it either by using the other hand to help pull it free or using misdirection to pull against the thumb with a simultaneous punch to the chin with your free hand. You can also strike the thumb with a hammerfist or knifehand while pulling the trapped hand against the grabber's thumb. It's not astrophysics. Learning defenses against wrist grabs is a good way to work a beginner into the more salient aspects of grappling and grappling counters. It gives the beginner insight into how the hand works.

Oh and wristtwister I agree with the seibukan guy. He sounds like he has reality to back up his philosophies. Anyway your name is wristwister (did I forget a "t"?) or whatever. You do JJJ. That's how you learned your aikijutsu. Of course it's very important to you. I think Pat's take on it all is much more complex in it's simplicity. There is depth and efficiency enhanced by logic in his replies. There is over-specificity and narrow scope in your explanations.

IOW, Seibukan guy is spot on.

IMO...


Edited by Unsu (02/04/07 08:48 AM)

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