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#237513 - 12/21/06 04:49 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: harlan]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
In such a situation, there's only one way to respond quickly enough to save yourself. Grab the blade with your free hand or get your free arm between the blade and its target. You'll definitely be going to hospital and you may lose the use of your arm but you may survive.

Whatever you do to the guy while you've got the blade, it'd better be at least near fatal if you want a chance of surviving such a situation.

I think that's the reality of it. Prevention is better than cure.

Even minus the wrist grab, this situation is extremely dangerous and warrants the use of appropriately lethal force.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/21/06 04:53 PM)
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#237514 - 12/21/06 09:38 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It depends on how he grabs you, as to whether or not you could effectively put space between the blade and yourself with your free arm. The truth of the matter is that you will, most likely, get cut.

When he makes the grab, he must be quite close to you and planted firmly on the ground so he can pull you to him or hold you in place.This is his mistake and you must make him pay for it by stomping his knee and crushing it. If this does not break his leg, it will force him to let go and step backwards at which point you must press the attack. If not you give him chance to square off and then the odds are against you since he is armed. Pressure him with a flurry of punches to the face then knees and elbows. Most likely he will have dropped the knife. Now he is on the defensive and you own him.
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#237515 - 12/22/06 01:56 AM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
There are plenty of techniques you can use but the one which I think most people will probably succeed with is to accept that they're going to get cut and get something non-vital between that blade and their vital organs. Then again, I don't know much about knife defense so I probably shouldn't be talking. However, most "knife defense" training I've seen involves an attacker miles away from the defender, regardless of the technique. When grappling or clinch is involved, things change just a bit. I think the marker pen training test is the best one to see what technique works best for an individual.

Most likely, a person wouldn't even see the knife if it were being drawn at such close range by surprise and so would probably attempt a block or a grab anyway.
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#237516 - 12/22/06 09:40 AM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Leo_E_49]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes. I've grabbed a blade. The first thing they do is retract it...so be prepared mentally to lose some fingers. Fortunately for me...I did not.

I didn't see it earlier in the thread (guess I'll have to go over it again)...but are there any statistics on this topic (the use of wristgrab in assaults)?

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#237517 - 12/22/06 12:48 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I agree. Like I said, you will be cut.

Lets look at the situation a little closer. Its going to take some imagination so get you caps on kiddies!

Ok first scenario, He grabs your left wrist with his right hand and attempts to stab you with his left. Like you said Leo, get your arm in there between the blade and your guts. This will likely work since 3 out of 4 people are right handed. Your right, should in theory, be faster than his left. So so far you have managed to not get stabbed but you must address the opponent. Not just the knife. Right now, both of your hands are occupied. Also he can cut you on the way back when withdrawing the knife, or go for the cut or stab in an easier location, such as the inside of your elbow since he has your wrist grabbed. If he does this, your arm is useless, you have less defensive measures, and are bleeding like a stuck pig with an enemy hungry for blood.

Now lets assum he has grabbed your left wrist with his left hand. This is much smarter on his part. Now he has an unobstructed shot towards your ribs,lungs,kidneys, neck and spine. Your other arm is much to far away to be an effective tool to block with. Since a person can stab as fast as they can punch, your about to take a hit somewhere.

The grab, must be addressed right from the beginning. Its a much larger threat than the knife because it forces you to go on the defensive against an armed opponent. I dont want to be on the defensive versus any opponent. Thats why I gave the answer i gave earlier. This will change the roles of the combatants so to speak. Instead of you being on the defensive, he is, since you broke off his initial attack and answered with one of your own. Whether you choose to keep attacking or run is up to you, but both are viable options if you successfully damage his structure and mobility.
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#237518 - 12/22/06 01:01 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: Chen Zen]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Exactly...this was the scenario in my dream. Bugged me for days.

Quote:

Now lets assum he has grabbed your left wrist with his left hand. This is much smarter on his part. Now he has an unobstructed shot towards your ribs,lungs,kidneys, neck and spine. Your other arm is much to far away to be an effective tool to block with. Since a person can stab as fast as they can punch, your about to take a hit somewhere.

The grab, must be addressed right from the beginning. Its a much larger threat than the knife because it forces you to go on the defensive against an armed opponent. I dont want to be on the defensive versus any opponent. Thats why I gave the answer i gave earlier. This will change the roles of the combatants so to speak. Instead of you being on the defensive, he is, since you broke off his initial attack and answered with one of your own. Whether you choose to keep attacking or run is up to you, but both are viable options if you successfully damage his structure and mobility.



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#237519 - 12/22/06 01:42 PM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

are wrist grabs (while standing) considered a habitual act of violence? or are they even common?

what are your collective thoughts on this from a self-defense perspective...regardless of your Art.





I can't believe that I've not posted on this thread at least once(imagine that?!) but Iíd like to share my thoughts.

Please excuse me for not having read the entire thread and perhaps only being somewhat redundant with what Iím about to add here...

IMO, wrist grabs can be quite common simply because the CLINCH is common in real fights. Itís HOW this clinch is fought that determines what goes down.

However, people will both grab and strike in the clinch and quite often thatís done at the same time. Obviously any fight will be dynamic and what happens will constantly change.

Again, simply because the clinch happens in real altercations, wrist grabbing happens (head grabbing/head locks happen as well). The more skilled the individual is, the more itís going to happen (wrist grabbing, not head locking).

Wrist grabs are something that we train from the clinch on almost a nightly basis. Itís that important to do, both from an offensive as well as a defensive perspective. Itís the beginning of any decent pummeling.

From a street fighting perspective, knowledge of hand fighting/wrist grabbing is of critical importance. Many altercations begin face to face on the street, particularly in crowds. In those situations, fights can start OUT as wrist grabbing. This may happen simply because of proximity.

If youíre carrying weapons or, you know your opponent is, hand-fighting can go a long way to shut down the draw of the weapon before it comes into play. Even after the draw, hand fighting is still important to shut down the weapon arm (and yes, you will be cut in all likelihood, but itís better to lose a limb than your life).

Just some thoughts.



-John

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#237520 - 12/22/06 02:04 PM Re: wrist: grab and stab [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Yes. I've grabbed a blade. The first thing they do is retract it...so be prepared mentally to lose some fingers. Fortunately for me...I did not.

I didn't see it earlier in the thread (guess I'll have to go over it again)...but are there any statistics on this topic (the use of wristgrab in assaults)?




For reference -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15836703
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#237521 - 12/23/06 01:28 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ambiguity Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
whilst the wrist grab or like has many applications,i can honestly say that in all the street fights ive seen or been involved in (i had a mispent youth)ive yet to see an aggresor grab someone by the wrist,its normally an act of anger which makes a shirt front,hair or throat grab much more common.
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#237522 - 12/23/06 03:18 AM Re: Wrist grabs: how common are they? [Re: ambiguity]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
i also have only skimmed the posts sorry I apologise for any repetition or misunderstanding on my part.

Wrist grabs are more common in a male (the perpetrator) and a female ( the victim). it is usually as an act of control either by leading or dragging away or by pinning.

With the grab and knife, the grab is more likely to occur on the upper arm, shoulder and lapel areas, as this with give a more controlled grab to drive the blade home. yes it can occur on the wrist but the wrist is a more moveable target and thus harder to control.

If it happens then they are going try to pull you towards them ( makes sense) What you need to do put his body between your wrist (being grabbed) and his knife. it's not easy to describe without a demo, but Aikidoka may understand what I mean as should most Ju JutsuKa. put simply you anchor is hand on your wrist , move to the outside of it and bring the entire side of his body downward using a kind of arm-bar, you'll need to rotate and use your foot work to keep his body between you and the knife, but it can be done. the beauty of it is it doesn't matter whether he is trying to knife you or punch you the same principles apply.

I normally prefer not to prescribe techniques as such but you should see some basic principles in the above "demo". The other principle would be to control the weapon arm directly. I would not recommend grabbing the blade its self, only as a last resort to prevent your death., he will simply withdraw the blade cut up you hand and leave it even less useable.

Every bit of advice can help, just think realistically, I don't claim to have have all the answers, no-one does ( unless god himself comes downs and opens a dojo) but if we all work together , other advice and opinions and strive to improve the readers safety then we cant go wrong.
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