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#237356 - 03/09/06 07:19 PM Real techniques versus dojo techniques
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've listened to thousands of arguments about "dojo" techniques versus "real" techniques over the years, and what is usually misunderstood is the difference in doing a technique as a "training application" and a "self defense application".

First of all, both techniques should be the same, but executed with a difference in intent and force application. Most of the injuries we see in aikido is with people doing shiho nage and either ripping someone's shoulder out or slamming them into the mats for a concussion.

If you're training with anyone in any dojo, you need to be cognizant of the fact that both of you probably have to go to work tomorrow, so slamming and recklessly injuring your training partners isn't going to be well received. That doesn't mean that you have to "go soft" on the techniques, only exercise the kind of caution that allows your uke to protect themselves using either ukemi or by tapping out.

Shiho nage is the perfect technique to see if your students respect each other, because if you teach it correctly, they will execute the technique toward the spine in the dojo, which allows the uke to arch over and fall without injuring themselves. If they take the technique toward the outside of the hip, it can rip out the shoulder joint and cause problems from now on. (A careless technique at a seminar is how I acquired a torn rotator cuff... admininsterd by a high ranking teacher that didn't have a clue about how to train safely).

While you have to have your mind right in order to execute techniques for self defense, you can't go "all out" without considering your partner's ability in the dojo and keep them in one piece. When people are paying to learn martial arts, some bozos think that they signed up to let you hurt them intentionally, and there's more than enough of that to go around in "good training", much less being subjected to abuse because someone thinks they need to kill you in order to see if their technique works.

I have no problem in conducting a match under those circumstances, but most of the time, it's someone that gets ambushed by another student or teacher that just tees off on them without warning that gets injured, simply because they assume that safety is the rule of the dojo. As long as both of us are playing under the same rules, you can't complain if you go home on a stretcher, but most injuries I've seen over the years were "ambushes" to an unsuspecting uke.

When I started in karate, we had training in "control"... and it wasn't just an instruction. It was a learned skill.
Today, with hand and foot pads and headgear, people train like that 1" piece of foam is going to stop my 900 pound front punch from hurting you. It doesn't work.

When you're training in aikido, you can't drop your weight on the uke's arm after you get them into proper application posture. You have to "let them down" with an appropriate amount of force. On the street, for self defense, you can rip their arm off and beat them with the bloody stump... but you should always learn when and how to do both.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237357 - 03/10/06 06:24 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Excellent advice. I think the crux of the issue is the (flawed) perception that we are doing a martial art and therefore it has to be "realistic". What most don't realize is that there is a significant difference between "reality" and "training method". But the reality is no different to how one trains. The key being "how"... which is usually misunderstood as "realistic", rather than "intent".

Some of the best martial artists I have trained with, had such precise control that it would be hard to escape without having my wrist or arm broken or dislocated. Others, some of whom were of "high" degrees of rank, simply had no control - those I learned to avoid or be more cognizant of protecting myself... from them.

There's a fine line between allowing someone to practice a technique on you, and protecting yourself. Sometimes, the latter can be misconstrued as "being resistant", resulting in the person attempting to resort to various means to "make it work". This is where the danger lies.

Apart from the obvious need for personal safety and playing "nicely" with a partner, martial arts training is primarily about exercising control - both of the Self, and in the execution of technique.

From a self-defence perspective, there is this thing called justifiable or reasonable "use of force". Many aikido (and jujitsu for that matter) techniques require very little "force". If the angles and directions are "right", it doesn't take much to drop someone. How much force is applied to make it work, is merely a matter of (self) control.

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#237358 - 03/10/06 11:04 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Apart from the obvious need for personal safety and playing "nicely" with a partner, martial arts training is primarily about exercising control - both of the Self, and in the execution of technique.





The crux of the problem is that we don't do martial arts as "full time" activity like the samurai, or for the same reasons. Motivation plays a lot in the mental aptitude to do anything, and it's cruising through life in neutral that destroys the martial mind. We need to have the martial mindset all the time, or go play soccer and baseball to occupy our time.

Martial arts is all about intent, and you can't be training to "be nice" and learn the real skills... but you can't train with people who have to go to work tomorrow and tee off on them with everything you've got. Learning to "go hard" under control is a form of discipline that has to be learned. "Control" isn't an instruction, but a skill, and where most martial arts go wrong today is that they forget to teach it... and it shows in the loss of consumate quality of technique.

When people tell me "I can't go full blast every technique", I tell them "then I will win... because I will"... and in that statement, is the difference.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237359 - 03/10/06 11:35 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristwister:

You spoke of another critical element, the usage of actual WORDS to ask, "...lets turn this up a bit, is that all right with you...?" The more words the better so there is no misunderstanding...

Even going litely I do not want to be hit by most which I encounter... I prefer my "parts" ~unbruised~ when I can prevent that thanks
J

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#237360 - 03/11/06 12:15 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Martial arts is all about intent, and you can't be training to "be nice" and learn the real skills... but you can't train with people who have to go to work tomorrow and tee off on them with everything you've got. Learning to "go hard" under control is a form of discipline that has to be learned. "Control" isn't an instruction, but a skill, and where most martial arts go wrong today is that they forget to teach it... and it shows in the loss of consumate quality of technique.

When people tell me "I can't go full blast every technique", I tell them "then I will win... because I will"... and in that statement, is the difference.





I agree it's all about intent. Where I disagree is not in being nice, but playing nice for the reasons you listed. MA is never about being nice. It's all about hurting, disabling, maiming and killing the other person. But playing nice within the context of something designed to maim and kill the opponent, is a whole different ball game, and it's not always about winning or losing, but about learning.

Especially in aikido, the moment you talk about winning and losing, the learning stops.

I agree that control is learnt skill, but I disagree that it's necessarily about going "full blast", although going full blast is a way of learning to play at a higher level.

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#237361 - 03/11/06 12:48 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You phrased it a little better than I did, but I think we're on the same page. It is never about winning or losing, but about remaining undefeated.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237362 - 03/11/06 05:51 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yes, I think we are on the same page.

Aikido is full of paradoxes. Victory and defeat, winning and losing, etc.

I'd make a longer post regarding some of the paradoxes, particularly in relation to certain aspects of Japanese/Chinese cosmology that it draws from, but I need to organize my notes and thoughts on the subject.

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#237363 - 03/12/06 11:57 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

it's not always about winning or losing, but about learning...<SNIP>...Especially in aikido, the moment you talk about winning and losing, the learning stops.




Xuzen agrees. Ossu!
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#237364 - 05/11/06 04:09 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: xuzen_628]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Greetings!

I am remembering now that once a new student applied to me a ShihoNage that almost killed me. it was his first day and he was like 150 pounds heavier than me. He smashed me with all his strenght. I did Ukemi but it was like a mammuth chargings!

But anyway, don´t you think that TOO much respect and softness is too dangerous, because our partner is not learning what real attacks are? We have a phrase here: when someone is hitted and he resents himself, we say; 'Well, go and play chess. is a safer game'. That means: if you wanna make a martial art, you must go ready to take some punishment. Is unavoidable. Otherwise, don´t make a martial art, play chess.

This is a saying we have hereand I agree with that. Sometimes Aikido clases look like a Dancing party for Teen Agres graduating!Jesus! What has this to do with MARTIAL arts?

And I love AIKIDO. I am not debasing it. I am talking about training. O Sensei could defeat anyone who was challenging him! Can we too?

Of course, we say: Aikido is not for fighting or competition. BUT the first generation did impose respect for Aikido defeating challengers! They WERE powerful Martial Artists in FIGHTING! No fear!

The spiritual part of the art, OK, is good for our development as a person: but if as a martial art is not useful, then why calling it a martial art at all? Why not a martial - based philosophy, or Gymnastics, etc. ?

Is my not enlightened opinion. I hope that I amnot offending anyone, because we are all on the same band.

If I offended anybody, I apologize in advance.

Yours
Dud

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#237365 - 05/11/06 04:17 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: dud]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
And sorry for the unintentional smirk at the end!

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#237366 - 05/11/06 07:21 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

I've listened to thousands of arguments about "dojo" techniques versus "real" techniques over the years, and what is usually misunderstood is the difference in doing a technique as a "training application" and a "self defense application".

First of all, both techniques should be the same, but executed with a difference in intent and force application. Most of the injuries we see in aikido is with people doing shiho nage and either ripping someone's shoulder out or slamming them into the mats for a concussion.

You have to "let them down" with an appropriate amount of force. On the street, for self defense, you can rip their arm off and beat them with the bloody stump... but you should always learn when and how to do both.






lol that happened the first time I did shiho-nage

I cut down all at once instead of putting my arm out first and gently "guiding" the person down. I felt bad but I was a new member so I remember I also felt good knowing these were real techniques... learning experience.

Doing the technique politely several thousand times is the way to train for doing it properly and hard. Doesn't sound like it works but it really does.


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#237367 - 05/12/06 10:35 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
I agree with you 50% Speedy.

Yes, doing it slow and often is a good method to learn the TECHNIQUE. But Self Defense is not only about technique, because Self Defense is, above all, a SITUATION with a very definite ENVIRONMENT. The Dojo practice, so controlled, can lead to effectively incorporating the technique into muscular memory, which is great for performing it later on street. But people need to have some kind of brain response against all the hostil environment that he / she will face on Self Defense situation (violent rythm, adrenaline pumping, screams, noise, wet floor, etc.). So, I think that in modern day Aikido these factors must be incorporated into practice, together with the Traditional training methods. For example adding some RBSD training to the Belt Programs.

And making a lot of Randori, because otherwise they scarcely know what making a technique on a full resistant adversary is. Tomiki San understod it very well, and I admire him for it, though I don´t like the idea of competitions.

Friend of all of you
Dud

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#237368 - 05/12/06 08:45 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: dud]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
I think we agree with each other more than that. The part above was just about larning the technique, practice should definitely include rigourous randori once the student is ready. That is where you begin to move past the mere physical technique and go into the "feeling" of your opponent, and timing.

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#237369 - 05/22/06 09:21 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Exactly!

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#237370 - 06/18/06 08:25 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Speedy,
I think you're close to correct. We all have slammed somebody when we were learning a technique (by accident)and had to apologize, but the techniques ramp up as we learn them and then the timing and flow come into play. We learn ukemi to protect ourselves from the nage waza, and the nage waza to protect ourselves from the attack, so we are always in the "protection" mode.

Correct development of technique requires me to give my uke my best... not something "toned down" or to make judgements about whether they can "handle" the technique, because they have to practice full speed just like I do. What is missing from this conversation is that we need to talk to our ukes and nages, and if they need us to slow down, have them tell us... but when that happens, it usually starts "conversations" of practice rather than practice.

Decide what speed you and your uke can handle, practice at that speed until you can ramp it up to full speed. You'll both be better that way... and if somebody gets slammed, it's their responsibility to ramp up their ukemi as well.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237371 - 08/14/06 04:26 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI wrist twister.
Seems like the thread has come to a halt so hope you dont mind me posting this?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6040579594687534032&q=wrestling++techniques

Firstly what do you think to the techniques?
IM having difficulty locationg a good aikido dojo so how would these be trained?

Thanks


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#237372 - 08/14/06 07:08 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I can't ever remember doing a technique that slowly unless I was explaining it to someone. As a demo, it's fair, but not much "oomph" in them.

Hopefully that wasn't a black belt demonstrating them. If it was, they need to step it up several notches...

"Handshake techniques" are like sucker punches to jujutsuka and aikidoka. They are normally taught at beginner levels to help familiarize students with locking and twisting principles.

On a scale of 1 to 10, it was about a 2.5.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237373 - 08/15/06 03:12 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


That appeals to my

"wanna do it" and seeing it even better me doing it would increase my the natural "measure of pleasure "

hormones that should run around my brain.

Have you ever wrote a book or put together a DVD?
I know better learning live but the problem is finding that some one to teach live.

Thanks



Edited by ANDY44 (08/15/06 03:19 AM)

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#237374 - 08/15/06 10:35 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Personally I see Aikido as one of those self defense arts that never got suckered into sport aspect. All of its techiuques to me are self-defense based and can't be messed with or you will risk injury.

What I don't like is the ideal beaten in that you should never use strength, be that as it may. In a Real situation sometimes rules of a system have to changed until you get things going your way.

My problem with Aikido in application, because I'm not very skilled in it. Though I like its approach and its a beautiful art. Is that when incoming are coming, its hard to get things going your way until you control the situation. Its hard to stay within yourself and in control of his motion as is in the dojo. I'm skilled in a striking art, once I've stopped or slowed their motion, with a kick or strike then I can apply the Aikido move. I know most Aikido has atemi but some don't adhear to it.

So Aikido techniques are very Real and deadly self-defense moves, once you get past A to B. Should it always be effortless and defensive in application, I don't know fighting sometimes call for offensive power moves. I know thats not, Aikidos way but, to me its real.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#237375 - 08/15/06 05:21 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Andy,
that video would promote a "learn it on your own" player, and regardless of how easy the techniques look, there are points that need to be taught by a qualified instructor... not "looked at" and then guessed at. You wouldn't want to bet your life on something that might work if you figured it out the right way.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237376 - 08/15/06 05:41 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko,
You don't have to convince me that aikido has good self defense techniques, but they can "be messed around with" and still be effective. I do it all the time by "short-cutting" an aikido technique into one of my jujutsu techniques, and it drives "real aikidoka" crazy...

As you say, any conflict has to be "handled" first, and redirected as you have the ability and opportunity. Strength is overcome by taking away balance or leverage, and isn't all that hard to do in "training situations", but when you have a guy who's pumped up on adrenalin, they aren't so "compliant" and a shot to the throat, eyes, or groin will usually "soften them up"...

I'm not one of those aikidoka that don't use atemi... I knock the crap out of my attacker on every technique if possible, and then try to make their world collapse in on top of them.

While OSensei talked a lot about peace, love, and world peace, he created one of the most deadly and violent unarmed combat systems in history. Like Professor Kano, he figured out how to teach it without killing the ukes, and in a manner to teach the ukes how to dissipate the force without injury. It's one of the anomolies of the art... that it is so violent in practice and peaceful in intent, because any casual observer would get the exact opposite view of it's makeup.

I've always believed in keeping it real in practice, so if you need it, you've got it. I wouldn't have a "McDojo" under my name in any way, shape, or fashion... and while it's called "gentle art", my jujutsu and aikido "ain't for the young"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237377 - 08/15/06 07:25 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

... It's one of the anomolies of the art... that it is so violent in practice and peaceful in intent, because any casual observer would get the exact opposite view of it's makeup.




Hidden in plain sight....

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#237378 - 08/16/06 02:58 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Niko456:

<<I don't know fighting sometimes call for offensive power moves. I know thats not, Aikidos way but, to me its real.

I think you'd get some REAL compelling disagreements from the Yoshinkan (Shioda) Aiki folks to name but one potent group of a numerous bunch.

Myself, I am not convinced I would want anybody of any branch regardless of the art/arts to share their "gifts" and to protect themselves upon me. Too easy to get smashed, too easy to be damaged...

Jeff

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#237379 - 08/16/06 08:28 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Anyone who studies "real" self defense knows that the defensive movements go all the way back to the intent of the attacker. While in practice there is no "first move" on the part of the aikidoka in the teaching syllabus, in actual practice, there are many methods of "stopping the attack before it gets started".

Redirection only requires intent... not actually action on the part of the attacker, and blending with them sometimes is like an internet board... it takes a "bump" if you need to get them moving in the right direction...

Not to disparage Yoshinkan, but they aren't the only ones with a license to make a first move. It's what we consider the "military style" of Aikido, and while Shioda Sensei looked like he worked miracles with his technique, it was just another opinion on Aikido during its developmental stages.

Remember that many of the masters of Aikido developed the area of it they were best in... that's how we ended up with different "styles". Tohei developed a style... Shioda... Tomiki... they're all aikido, with different styles and different focus points in the training... that doesn't mean that they still can't leave a 6-inch impression in the mat with you when they do their technique...

Many of those stylea are "returning to the original" these days, so Aikido is becoming more homogenous again... and if they can keep egos from getting into the mix, and keep the charlatans out, it'll stay a good traditional art. Only time will tell...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237380 - 08/16/06 01:16 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

Merely chose Yoshinkan as I can spell remotely closely and seems moderately popular? If "it" becomes physical we failed on all kinds of levels... IMV. Don't want to be choked, bent, kicked, punched, twisted, or zapped by anybody... Tomeki, Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, or anybody else for that matter. It all hurts, done correctly...

PS there ever anything but "developmental" ? Its always whomever's art originally but our bodies... and honed, nuanced with time, no?

Jeff

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#237381 - 08/16/06 03:24 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

If "it" becomes physical we failed on all kinds of levels... IMV.




Well, other than throwing "chi balls" at an attacker, every fight is going to get physical. How well you handle it depends on your skills.

Quote:

PS there ever anything but "developmental" ?




Absolutely... it might be developmental for you, because you don't know it well, but there's nothing developmental about aikido right now, except for the blending of two people into a technique from an attack. In that sense, everything in fighting is developmental... it develops from the intent and attack.

What is taught has usually been proved effective.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237382 - 08/17/06 01:22 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:



I appreciate your patience in helping discuss this issue a bit. Thank you.

<<Well, other than throwing "chi balls" at an attacker,

Thought that was a "Keebler" product ?!

<<every fight is going to get physical. How well you handle it depends on your skills.

Short of walking into a deliberate ambush... things can be done to still de-escalate situations correct? Someone's head space (or its lack) is a good place to reroute & deflect things. Distract me, confuse me, change my attention but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable... even afterward, if, if ones skill is sufficent and one is "thick skinned".

As to Aikido's being develepmental... or not

The art which any of us study is always being developed, nuanced, and having its rough edges polished... What a person does when first starting anything whether "learning" it or teaching it (rhetorically are they not the same?) first starting things are a little rough. In time a little different, with more time becoming more subtle, polished still? Not that what is taught earlier is in any way wrong merely tweaked in certain ways...

By definition, the art whatever yours or mine might specifically be, they are always developing. Hearing something the first time, I can misperceive the information. With time perceive the information differently, more deeply one hopes? When the change is fundamental philosophy, the information base is different again. Aiki, Te, Wushu(generic) myself I see no difference... Perhaps our practice is more signifigant than what might never be (ie "real")

In these respects, everybody's art is constantly developing. I appreciate & accept your blending of assailants being developmental in process. I was merely thinking prior to that point...

Merely my perspective, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#237383 - 08/17/06 09:13 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Short of walking into a deliberate ambush... things can be done to still de-escalate situations correct? Someone's head space (or its lack) is a good place to reroute & deflect things.




If you want to play mind games, you first need a mind... if you want to be a peacemaker, you need to have overwhelming force...

Quote:

but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable... even afterward, if, if ones skill is sufficent and one is "thick skinned".





You need to study hostage negotiation instead of martial arts. You seem to be all about "resolving conflict" which isn't in the syllabus for martial arts... conflict is resolved by the best technique...

Quote:

By definition, the art whatever yours or mine might specifically be, they are always developing.




I'd totally disagree with that premise... what's known is known, and in combat situations, what works and doesn't is known unless your teacher sucks. Our skills might be developmental, but not the techniques themselves... otherwise, how can you teach them? I'm not much on a "try this, and if it doesn't work... try this... and if..."

There are probably a hundred ways to do every throw in Judo and jujutsu, but there is an accepted standard and that's what's taught. Learning variations is not necessarily developmental, just expansion of the skill set...

Quote:

In these respects, everybody's art is constantly developing. I appreciate & accept your blending of assailants being developmental in process. I was merely thinking prior to that point...




That's a "momentary thing", not "developmental" in the sense of creating something new... it's developmental in the sense of simply blending two energies in order to dissipate them. Each technique in Aikido IS a learning experience, but only for "technique memory", not for developing a different aptitude. Irimi is irimi... tenkan is tenkan... ura is ura... how well you do your techniques is how you fall between the cracks in them.

Not being argumentative... just trying to give you a better perspective in what fighting is all about... it isn't sitting around the campfire singing "Kumbayah" and telling everybody to be friends...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237384 - 08/18/06 12:33 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Quote:

Short of walking into a deliberate ambush... things can be done to still de-escalate situations correct? Someone's head space (or its lack) is a good place to reroute & deflect things. Distract me, confuse me, change my attention but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable... even afterward, if, if ones skill is sufficent and one is "thick skinned".



A fight effectively begins with the intention—NOT the first blow, which might not be delivered until relatively late in the game. (Ever been stalked?) Once I discern the intention, everything I do—including what might come out of my mouth (aka kuchiwaza, "mouth technique" )—functions either to help me escape or to put my would-be attacker down. If my opponent changes his mind about attacking me—great! But to make that my primary objective would be like reaching directly for a hand holding a knife, thinking that I could disarm it directly without first getting out of the way and controlling the movement of the whole arm. I sure wouldn't want to count on my ability to do that!

This much said, though, I can see how negotiation and the application of preemptive force form the polar ends of a single tactical continuum, part of a larger strategic framework contextualizing the application of martial techniques as one mode of managing conflict. What you choose to do, and when, is a function of your discretion.

Now, I’m one of those people who finds O-Sensei’s vision of budo as an expression of divine love very appealing—a seeming conundrum, in fact, with which I’ve been grappling through most of my martial arts career. Still, I’ve found from my own experience that the capacity to accept and even care for people as they are depends on a certain toughness of mind and a full appreciation of human nature’s dark side as well as hopes for the light. Otherwise, that all-important tender heart can get pulped like fruit in a blender …

Sorry for the sermon, Ronin. I suspect that I may have gone off on a tangent here. The part of your post that I’ve quoted, though, resonates with a certain ethical or even spiritual viewpoint, and I take seriously the proposition that a person’s spirituality and martial arts practice can reinforce each other. Spiritual practice and marital arts have formed the two wings that have helped me fly right in life. I honestly doubt that one side could get off the ground without the other. But then, I’m able to speak only for my own experience, which is solely my own.


Edited by kunin (08/18/06 01:51 AM)
_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

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#237385 - 08/27/06 09:48 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: kunin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Now, I’m one of those people who finds O-Sensei’s vision of budo as an expression of divine love very appealing—a seeming conundrum, in fact, with which I’ve been grappling through most of my martial arts career.




Why the conundrum, Nicole? The tools of the Art of Peace are the same ones as the Art of War. (The exact quote eludes me at the moment).

If you read the writings attributed to Sun Tzu, the admonition is to exercise strategic balance and caution in the conduct of war, in order to minimize the economic and human cost for the good (read "love") of the nation (read "people"), in the event that war is necessary.

Quote:


In the conduct of war, it is preferable to subdue a State
whole and intact rather than to destroy it; to subdue an army
whole and intact, rather than to destroy it…

… To win every battle by actual fighting before a war is won,
it is not the most desirable. To conquer the enemy without
resorting to war is the most desirable.





I believe, given the circumstances of the time (Japan's involvement in the war) and the point at which Ueshiba was, the reference to "divine love" is within the context of one of humanitarianism.

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#237386 - 08/27/06 10:46 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: kunin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

A fight effectively begins with the intention—NOT the first blow, which might not be delivered until relatively late in the game. (Ever been stalked?) Once I discern the intention, everything I do—including what might come out of my mouth (aka kuchiwaza, "mouth technique" )—functions either to help me escape or to put my would-be attacker down.




That's correct, Nicole, but there's a caveat with that... in the effort to be "reasonable" you have to have someone (or something) that IS reasonable. Attempting to reason with a bear is a good example... and there are people out there that are just as unreasonable, so while you're correct that the fight begings with intention, negotiation is only done from weakness or using it as a "disarming tactic". The winners dictate terms, so that is why we train to remain undefeated rather than simply to win...

Quote:

Now, I’m one of those people who finds O-Sensei’s vision of budo as an expression of divine love very appealing—a seeming conundrum, in fact, with which I’ve been grappling through most of my martial arts career.



There is no conundrum with OSensei's vision, simply the idea that in the "ideal world" we would all get along and conflicts would be solved by redirection... unfortunately, that's not the way of the real world... and as a matter of course, you can't expect to deal with everyone in the manner of that vision. It's great when it works that way, but his vision hasn't changed the way the world operates. It has surely had an effect on many people, but like all ideals, they are only effective in the arena where they are observed totally by all concerned.

Quote:

I take seriously the proposition that a person’s spirituality and martial arts practice can reinforce each other.




As do I, and most other martial artists who seriously study what they're doing. We have to be realistic, however, and understand that while we attempt to find inner peace through the practice and study of violence, that the practical side of what we do is just as important. Without that understanding, we are like someone trying to read every other word in a sentence... sometimes it makes sense, and sometimes not.

Reshaping our thought process to move toward solving violence problems with "other means" was OSensei's goal, but he developed a deadly art to accomplish that purpose. To sell it short by only focusing on the "heavenly" plane of it's understanding would do it a disservice, and certainly wouldn't accomplish his vision.

By constantly working on the techniques and the interaction with and between practice partners, we can reach understandings that are tied to the technique. Why practice?.. because there is practice to do...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237387 - 08/28/06 09:16 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Wrist-twister wrote:

Quote:

Quote:

A fight effectively begins with the intention—NOT the first blow, which might not be delivered until relatively late in the game. (Ever been stalked?) Once I discern the intention, everything I do—including what might come out of my mouth (aka kuchiwaza, "mouth technique" )—functions either to help me escape or to put my would-be attacker down.




That's correct, Nicole, but there's a caveat with that... in the effort to be "reasonable" you have to have someone (or something) that IS reasonable. Attempting to reason with a bear is a good example... and there are people out there that are just as unreasonable, so while you're correct that the fight begings with intention, negotiation is only done from weakness or using it as a "disarming tactic". The winners dictate terms, so that is why we train to remain undefeated rather than simply to win...




I think that we're basically on the same page here. I was responding to Ronin1966's assertion that—

Quote:

... but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable...



—which struck me as somewhat unrealistic and not quite true to facts. Clearly, the intent underwriting an attacker's actions need have nothing to do with his/her being "reasonable" or being able to be reasoned with (as I meant to convey with my aside about being stalked). If your attacker's committed to hurting you—whether from a momentary lack of self-control or from sustained conscious bad intentions—you need to respond appropriately—in other words, according to the circumstance that presents itself.

Taking the broadest possible view to managing conflict as it appears in our world, I do think it’s useful—quoting from the subsequent paragraph of my post—to view negotiation and the use of preemptive force as "the polar ends of a single tactical continuum [italics added]," a range of available responses on which we might draw to address a wide variety of situations. In this regard, the “kuchiwaza” I was speaking of—using a slangy expression coined by one of my teachers, intended somewhat satirically here—need not be conciliatory in tone. A sharp word in the right circumstances can go a long way toward keeping the peace.

Obviously, situations can suddenly emerge where we aren’t given the luxury of time to pick and choose our responses, when we have to take immediate action based on our instincts and training. The goal is always, as you say, to emerge undefeated rather than simply to win. Still, there’s a world of difference between dealing, say, with an obnoxious relative who shows up at a family gathering with alcohol on his breath and handling a violent perp who thinks nothing of hurting you or a loved one.

Quote:

Quote:

I take seriously the proposition that a person’s spirituality and martial arts practice can reinforce each other.




As do I, and most other martial artists who seriously study what they're doing. We have to be realistic, however, and understand that while we attempt to find inner peace through the practice and study of violence, that the practical side of what we do is just as important. Without that understanding, we are like someone trying to read every other word in a sentence... sometimes it makes sense, and sometimes not.

Reshaping our thought process to move toward solving violence problems with "other means" was OSensei's goal, but he developed a deadly art to accomplish that purpose. To sell it short by only focusing on the "heavenly" plane of it's understanding would do it a disservice, and certainly wouldn't accomplish his vision.

By constantly working on the techniques and the interaction with and between practice partners, we can reach understandings that are tied to the technique. Why practice?.. because there is practice to do...



No disagreement there! I don’t believe in airy-fairy when it comes to martial arts or to spiritual discipline. Still, I think it’s profitable now and then to raise one’s eyes from the mat to express an open appreciation for the larger, deeper purposes of training.

I admit that I was writing from a very personal take on what I’ve learned over the years about Ueshiba Morihei’s life and spirituality—a perspective informed not only by my own spiritual aspirations, but by considerations of personal history, culture, and practice that place my attitudes and perceptions somewhat outside of mainstream. It seems pretty clear, from where I sit, that there was a great deal more to O-Sensei’s vision than simple idealism on his part, but the intimation of a living reality working on him at a very deep level through much of his life. This “mystical” dimension certainly didn’t make him any less of a tough guy—a rather temperamental one, at that!—nor did it render his art any less pragmatic with respect to application. But it certainly brought light to his fire!

As to what I wrote about the “seeming conundrum” of budo being an expression of divine love, I should have made clear that I wasn’t coming from merely philosophical concerns. Spirituality—as I think you’ll agree—doesn’t exist on the plane of ideas, but is a matter of embodiment. For very personal reasons rooted in my own experience of life, self, and spirit, I’ve found O-Sensei’s saying functioning as a goad—a koan, if you will—to uncover a certain potential in my relationship with myself and with the world around me. It’s certainly not as though I can expect to know what that really looks like short of doing a lifetime’s spadework! This goes back to the point you've expressed above, that we can no more separate the "heavenly" and practical aspects of training than we can the left side of a coin from the right.

– Thanking you and eyrie both for your thoughtful and thought-provoking responses ... I'll continue to think about what you've written.

_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

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#237388 - 08/28/06 11:21 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: kunin]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Kunin:



I accept-agree both are necessary. At a much higher level than I shall ever possess I suspect only one "wing" is needed. The "body of the rock", indominatable spirit, whatever metaphor, or phrase you prefer... strong enough and even the physical attack (in process) I suspect is avoidable!

I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff

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#237389 - 08/28/06 12:56 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

Your lack of emoticons, of which there are many would offer helpful-meaningful context to your words I've read your words several times and been.... amused... and saddened by the dismissive (deragatory?) tone you appear to have taken towards the gist of many of my sentiments. Yet as I say often (and rightly), I could easily be mistaken...



I regret we appear to disagree. The usage of physical technique is dictated/governed by ones philsophy & those inherent to ones training I contend. If my ~attitude~ is a poor one, or I am foolish/stupid I will easily "engage" someone in a blaise & childish manner (ie gladly) when alternatives, (lots of non physical responses) are easily viable. The typical "immature" young person approach vs. the person with more life experiences.... being smarter and knowing a situation is avoidable and does so.

Practice has taught me I want to avoid any and every fight that is possible. If I can do that with words, a better approach, a philosophy if you will such that by doing so things do not BECOME physical...

I propose this is inherent & fundamental to all dojo practice. Avoiding the avoidable IS the "higher road". Singing "Kumbayah" with my voice now that might cause a fight...

Our techniques, not variations per se, but the techniques themselves develop every time we practice them, if, if we are watching. Compairing 15 years studying Irimi vs. the first day... they look very similar but have nuances & subtleties hense develop with time was my basic point. I reget the clumsy wording, in conveying same.

<<it isn't sitting around the campfire singing "Kumbayah" and telling everybody to be friends...



Nor is charging into situations necessarily intelligent. There are alternatives to the physical fight, use when possible

Jeff

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#237390 - 08/28/06 06:40 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ronin,
I have no ax to grind with you. I have an opinion and you have an opinion. If you aren't satisfied with mine, too bad. If you aren't satisfied with yours, change it.

I don't think I'm being dismissive or deragatory toward anyone by stating my opinion. If you need the McDonald's menu to make it more meaningful for you (emoticons), then you have my sympathy.

I certainly have no problem avoiding a fight whenever possible, and most of the time, the people starting them couldn't hit me inside a phone booth... so I have the skills to back it up. I also don't waste time negotiating with troublemakers... the sooner they realize they are in an untenable position, the sooner the problem is resolved, and there's nothing like a good wristlock or sending someone flying across the room to get their attention.

I seriously doubt if Ueshiba Sensei ever had this kind of conversation with any of his students. They were smart enough to realize that his vision of peace, love, and harmony was based on redirecting someone's energies... not negotiating with them. His religious philosophy didn't preclude him beating the soup out of someone to give them "enlightenment"... in fact, it was his preferred method. If you think other than that, it only proves you don't know anybody that actually knew him.

And by the way... it's entirely possible to be fierce with people who fight against you, and extremely warm and comforting to others who offer no threat. I do it all the time, and before you proffer another argument, no, I do not start trouble. I don't need to prove anything to anyone, and have a low tolerance for "negotiators" who usually show up on the Soke list somewhere down the line...

Quote:

Nor is charging into situations necessarily intelligent. There are alternatives to the physical fight, use when possible




Gee, you'd think I'd have learned something in the 43 (soon to be 44) years I've been training. I should have met all you "peace, love, and harmony" guys when I was training with Toyoda. He would have loved it...

The real me...
Your impression of me...
My impression of the "peace, love and harmony crowd"...

Try the Big Mac meal... it's delicious...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237391 - 08/28/06 07:14 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

The "body of the rock", indominatable spirit, whatever metaphor, or phrase you prefer... strong enough and even the physical attack (in process) I suspect is avoidable!




The concept of fudoshin can be both physical and metaphorical i.e. "immovable" in the face of adversity. Emotionally unperturbed. The impassive state of mind with which a surgeon executes his technique with clinical precision in order to save the patient on the operating table. The calm, centeredness that a seasoned paramedic exhibits trying to stop an accident victim from bleeding to death, or moving straight into CPR if necessary.

Why would that state of mind be necessarily different in the face of an attack - physical, verbal, emotional or metaphorical? I don't think it's any different. When the mind and ego intervenes, with doubts or concerns over winning or losing, the "flow" is interrupted and the center is "lost".

It's like golf - the game that can't be won or lost, only played.

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#237392 - 08/28/06 07:46 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
...What he said...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237393 - 08/28/06 08:16 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Eyrie wrote:

Quote:

The tools of the Art of Peace are the same ones as the Art of War.



Many thanks for your reference to Sun Tzu's Art of War! I've been making a sustained study of this classic verse by verse over the summer—inspired, in part, by the very "conundrum" (koan might be the more suggestive word) that I've found in O-Sensei's saying, and by a felt need to "shape up" my own aptitudes for understanding and managing conflict in my own life. It's certainly true that Sun Tzu's central concept of "taking whole" is adaptable to the intentions of the Art of Peace. I wouldn't go so far as to say, however, that the two philosophies are functionally identical. It's more a matter that one can be mapped onto the other to a considerable degree, a fact that is certainly suggestive to the moral imagination. Still, while Sun Tzu's principles of strategy appear appropriable to Ueshiba's philosophy of aiki, I'm not sure that the reverse is as true. It seems a stretch to think of Sun Wu as being inspired by humanitarian ideals—though he might well have been moved personally by the "pity in things" that war brings to view as nothing else in human affairs. Who can say? We have only his text to go by, which to my mind expresses a ruthlessly pragmatic point of view, addressed to the brutal and highly competitive political realities of China's Spring and Autumn period.

(Now that nursing school has started up again, I'm having to steal bits of time to continue my reading and reflection on Sun Tzu, but it's definitely worth the effort. As to why a newbie nurse would want to take the time to do so—well, anyone here ever work in health care? In community nursing, especially—but even on the hospital floor—you have to be very savvy about working in the face of competing interests and highly stressed, difficult personalities in order to advocate effectively for your patients, and for yourself as well. It's all about the art of the possible, and learning how to set up your opportunities within the interpersonal and institutional frameworks surrounding you.)

Quote:

I believe, given the circumstances of the time (Japan's involvement in the war) and the point at which Ueshiba was, the reference to "divine love" is within the context of one of humanitarianism.



I would certainly agree that O-sensei's response to the excesses of Japanese militarism had a great deal to do with aikido's later development. So, yes! Humanitarianism became an active concern for him in his elder years. Even so, the man was an unabashed mystic, a fact that seems to embarrass a lot of people who seem intent on minimizing it. – Whereas others of us do find some inspiration in it, a sense of the upper reaches of our own potential ... The trick, in that case, is to avoid getting too self-important or airy-fairy about it! Ueshiba himself certainly wasn't!


Edited by kunin (08/28/06 08:31 PM)

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#237394 - 08/28/06 08:38 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
The concept of fudoshin can be both physical and metaphorical i.e. "immovable" in the face of adversity. Emotionally unperturbed. The impassive state of mind with which a surgeon executes his technique with clinical precision in order to save the patient on the operating table. The calm, centeredness that a seasoned paramedic exhibits trying to stop an accident victim from bleeding to death, or moving straight into CPR if necessary.

Why would that state of mind be necessarily different in the face of an attack - physical, verbal, emotional or metaphorical? I don't think it's any different. When the mind and ego intervenes, with doubts or concerns over winning or losing, the "flow" is interrupted and the center is "lost".




Hi There

If Im reading this correctly then are you suggesting that there should be no difference in emotional state if a person were being attacked than a para medic keeping their cool to carry out his/her duties?

Andy


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#237395 - 08/28/06 09:42 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: kunin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

It's certainly true that Sun Tzu's central concept of "taking whole" is adaptable to the intentions of the Art of Peace. I wouldn't go so far as to say, however, that the two philosophies are functionally identical. It's more a matter that one can be mapped onto the other to a considerable degree, a fact that is certainly suggestive to the moral imagination. Still, while Sun Tzu's principles of strategy appear appropriable to Ueshiba's philosophy of aiki, I'm not sure that the reverse is as true. It seems a stretch to think of Sun Wu as being inspired by humanitarian ideals—though he might well have been moved personally by the "pity in things" that war brings to view as nothing else in human affairs.





I think it's important to note that the work entitled "The Art of War" had several authors - presumably for different sections, but was attributed to Sun Tzu, presumably as a result of compilation/editing such a work, and hence self-entitled as "Sun Tzu's Treatise on Military Methods" (Sun Zi Bing Fa).

So, no, I don't think Sun Tzu was pushing the humanitarian ideal anymore than Ueshiba was talking about the New-Agey connotation of "love", or that the philosophies are identical or even interchangeable or adaptable. But I would venture to go as far as to stick my neck out and say that they are both talking about the same thing - that the conduct of war and warriorship (Ueshiba's interpretation of budo) are based on the same principles and ideals, that of "nature" (the Dao) and being in accordance with the "divine will".

Ueshiba didn't just talk about kami no musubi, a lot of his sayings also revolved around warriors fighting evil and "enemies". In typical traditionalist fashion, Ueshiba was using esoteric references and language to point at what he meant. Some of it points specifically at training methods (or at least a round-a-bout way of saying to those in the know, that he "knew"), others are pointers to mental and spiritual attitudes, and mostly indications of a roadmap to the "summit" for those who would follow "the Path".

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#237396 - 08/28/06 09:50 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


If Im reading this correctly then are you suggesting that there should be no difference in emotional state if a person were being attacked than a para medic keeping their cool to carry out his/her duties?





Not so much "keeping your cool", although that may appear to be a result of it. It's more like remaining impassive, almost indifferent, like an assassin doing a "job" with cold, clinical precision, not because it's "just a job", but with the sort of deep unshakable pride and passion (read "love"), of "doing the job" and doing a damn fine job!

Clear as mud?

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#237397 - 08/28/06 10:00 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
For some people nigh on impossable.Thas a very rare animal.


Nice idea but not very practical, If som eone is treating someone who is injured then thats fine, If someone is under threat then there is flight or fight hormone.

I will pass from, initial flight to fight if I am attacked.
Its called the adrenaln dump

Means a person c###s them selves unless they are naive
and have never been in a hard fight.

I know plenty like that. After the hard fight they learn
almost indifferent?. I think for the assassin part thats only applies in films and books or people who are nutters and belong in jail.

Most people c### themselves regrdless when it concerns violance of any nature. Including attackers when they start to lose. The smell is awfull.




By the way to explain things how I see it here is a poem I wrote/created based on when I was competing full contact karate
i used it to reply to Old man on another thread



My bag is leather, and filled with sand.
With this I train, with feet and hand
And when I fight, all bruised and cut
My hands still broken, my eyes still shut
In common with love, its much the same
when lovers exist, there is also pain.

@Andy






Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 10:18 PM)

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#237398 - 08/28/06 10:19 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I don't think Sun Tzu was pushing the humanitarian ideal anymore than Ueshiba was talking about the New-Agey connotation of "love", or that the philosophies are identical or even interchangeable or adaptable.




Well said, and what is even more "hidden in plain sight" is that Ueshiba didn't have such an overwhelming focus on the "love of mankind" as disdain for their actions and poor interactions with each other. He did not like "emotional conflicts", and was quite clinical (as are many Japanese teachers), and while allowing such students as Tohei to experiment and vary his teachings, his focus never changed. He wanted his art to create a better world, but not by negotiation...

Altitude adjusts attitude...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237399 - 08/28/06 10:38 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

For some people nigh on impossable.Thas a very rare animal.

Nice idea but not very practical, If som eone is treating someone who is injured then thats fine, If someone is under threat then there is flight or fight hormone.

I will pass from, initial flight to fight if I am attacked.
Its called the adrenaln dump





It doesn't have to be a fight. Just ask any nurse or doctor that spent any time in ER.... or any of the returned veterans... A large of what we train in (whether it is martial or spiritual enlightenment) is learning to override the body's normal autonomous functions.

Quote:

I think for the assassin part thats only applies in films and books or people who are nutters and belong in jail.

Most people c### themselves regrdless when it concerns violance of any nature. Including attackers when they start to lose. The smell is awfull.





Yeah, I c###d myself watching a snuff film. I think you missed the point. It's not about fighting, even though it may appear to be on the surface - omote/ura, soto/uchi....

I can touch hands with someone and know whether I pwn them or they pwn me. Once you can do that, there is no need to fight...

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#237400 - 08/28/06 10:52 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
In the kind of job I do the idiots fight.So I have to remove them.
Regards the veterens some top them selves years later, or refuse to talk about their experiences.

Would be a nice world with out violance but its there so I think it has to be dealt with accordingly

I still dont think under those circumstances the bodies natural rections can be over ridden when threatend.

People say it can but I have yet to see it.

But just my view



What is a snuff film?. Is that the stuff they inhale?
Not my scene

Thanks



Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 10:56 PM)

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#237401 - 08/28/06 11:01 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
All I can say is "more training"...


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#237402 - 08/28/06 11:10 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I can touch hands with someone and know whether I pwn them or they pwn me. Once you can do that, there is no need to fight...

Is that own me?dont get the pwn part

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#237403 - 08/28/06 11:31 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Quote:

I think it's important to note that the work entitled "The Art of War" had several authors - presumably for different sections, but was attributed to Sun Tzu, presumably as a result of compilation/editing such a work, and hence self-entitled as "Sun Tzu's Treatise on Military Methods" (Sun Zi Bing Fa).



That's likely true, as also appears to be the case for the Tao Te Ching of "Lao-tzu." Yet, for convenience as much as anything, we tend to refer to the collective as though it were a single personality, which was what I was doing.

Quote:

Ueshiba didn't just talk about kami no musubi, a lot of his sayings also revolved around warriors fighting evil and "enemies". In typical traditionalist fashion, Ueshiba was using esoteric references and language to point at what he meant. Some of it points specifically at training methods (or at least a round-a-bout way of saying to those in the know, that he "knew"), others are pointers to mental and spiritual attitudes, and mostly indications of a roadmap to the "summit" for those who would follow "the Path".



Your point is well-taken and is something for me to keep in mind as I read translations of his doka and lectures. I also tend to agree that Sun Tzu and Ueshiba-sensei--

Quote:

... are both talking about the same thing - that the conduct of war and warriorship (Ueshiba's interpretation of budo) are based on the same principles and ideals, that of "nature" (the Dao) and being in accordance with the "divine will".




I just hope that I'm not being jacketed as a New Ager here-- --not that anyone's been outrightly accusing me of that. It's actually kind of an insult where I come from, especially in view of the fact that the whole consumerist New Age movement has appropriated all kinds of traditions to itself, watering them down to promote an ethos of social and cultural entitlement couched in a lot of touchie-feelie BS. I could go into a long polemic about it, but I don't consider these forums to be the place for it.
_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

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#237404 - 08/29/06 02:10 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: kunin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


I just hope that I'm not being jacketed as a New Ager here-- --not that anyone's been outrightly accusing me of that. It's actually kind of an insult where I come from, especially in view of the fact that the whole consumerist New Age movement has appropriated all kinds of traditions to itself, watering them down to promote an ethos of social and cultural entitlement couched in a lot of touchie-feelie BS. I could go into a long polemic about it, but I don't consider these forums to be the place for it.




Looking at your forum title... I would say nah, no way ANYONE could EVER get confused....

BTW, it's always a pleasure for me to read what you post.

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#237405 - 08/29/06 02:13 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I can touch hands with someone and know whether I pwn them or they pwn me. Once you can do that, there is no need to fight...

Is that own me?dont get the pwn part




Yes, sorry... OWN.... not to suggest I own u.... and a snuff film is NOT stuff you inhale....

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#237406 - 08/29/06 07:51 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi There

I cant quite see you point but it would seem we move around in different circles.



Edited by ANDY44 (08/29/06 08:02 PM)

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#237407 - 08/29/06 10:08 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Andy44:

<<In the kind of job I do the idiots fight.So I have to remove them.

Ever considered a better job?

Please understand I am asking a genuine question here. And I think (rightly/wrongly) this speaks to the heart of wristtwisters original thread question.

That being the difference between practice and usage... the very different intent... possibly a very different ~governing philosophy~ if you will? All debatible I grant you....

When you speak of ones ~natural reactions~ being unavoidable and if I am reading correctly unalterable or perhaps "unusable"? Am I reading your words correctly?

You are saying that approached by a problem, or approaching a situation you cannot detach, mentally remove yourself from your body's autonomic responses, adrenaline, etc.? You must go primal, and have no... "detachment" no observer-perception from the situation, whatever it might happen to be? In a situation, again whatever it might be... you don't "step back" try and prevent stupidity from getting worse...

Trying to understand the mind set here...
J

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#237408 - 08/30/06 09:09 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi There.

I was going to bring this conversation to an end
But

Two words if it is mindset you are discussing.

Animal and intellect.

The other guy trys to give circumstances of a doctor doing an operation or people at the scene of an accident keeping cool .Seemingly detached
They might.Their minds can be controlled
That is intellect.

Wrong circumstances for mind control.Thats easy.
Its easy to practice any technique physical or mental
untill there comes a time to prove that technique.
Speculation about what might be isnt the same as being put in to that situation.



Any how my heavy bag awaits me.
My bare hands,knees,head and feet will be sore when I have finished.
And weigth training where I shall go in to primeavel/animal mode.Aggression
Detached away from societys understanding of humans

Then I shall become calm and detach myself because if I dont normal types get upset.
Intellect.

Ous



Human history will explain about mind sets
but that is a very heavy depressing debate


Edited by ANDY44 (08/30/06 09:18 AM)

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#237409 - 08/30/06 10:44 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Andy,
there is an "animal" content to us all, and an intellectual one... as well as an emotional one. What our training is designed to do, is to make us clinical in our reactions, but clinical in the sense of being "under control". I could teach a monkey to do all the things necessary to fly a plane, but I'm not going to have him fly a 727 full of people... why, because he lacks judgement.

What makes martial artists superior to others in their actions isn't just the technique they use... but the prudent application of them. If you have the skills to fight, you also have to have the ability to avoid one, because you can't possibly train for all situations.

You have to develop the ability to conduct instant "threat assessment" and choose a technique to use to help improve your situation rather than just disposing of one attacker... because fighting situations are always fluid... and while you want to focus this on "animal instinct", it is prudent judgement that makes us "clinical" technicians rather than simple brutes.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237410 - 08/31/06 12:27 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi There

It would be a nice thought if that could be achieved.
Unfortunatly I dont see it to often. I work in night clubs removing people who want to fight as part of a team. I can see your point but I dont think I will ever become totaly clinicaly removed from situations. Some one mentioned vets on here earlier. Well the ones I know werent distant . More the opposite.

I can see your point.

would be nice

ANDY


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#237411 - 08/31/06 12:34 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Hello Andy44:

...

Trying to understand the mind set here...
J




The mind set is that wristtwister speaks of being in total control achieved by martial arts training. I have some control but I am not in total control. My normal human emotions/endocrine system still controls my thought action when under extreme pressure.

Thats about it.

I could bs and say everything is but Im not going to.

Nice thougth if it could be chieved.

Andy


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#237412 - 08/31/06 01:56 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Without going into an overlap with the Aikido vs etc. thread, let me just say, that ironically, the more you can let go and embrace the concept of "not fighting" (i.e. Aiki is "love" ... no enemies... no conflict... achieve harmony...), the better you can start to see how and why "ai-ki" is such a powerful martial paradigm.

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#237413 - 09/05/06 07:47 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
Atreu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 11
Loc: under the southern cross
Quote:

Without going into an overlap with the Aikido vs etc. thread, let me just say, that ironically, the more you can let go and embrace the concept of "not fighting" (i.e. Aiki is "love" ... no enemies... no conflict... achieve harmony...), the better you can start to see how and why "ai-ki" is such a powerful martial paradigm.




hear here!!!

I've noticed that as I reached a more mature level in yudansha (I just got my sandan woo hoo )The more i explore the essence of aikido. Less fights (I should stop hanging around redfern and kingsX in Sydney) I get into. It is almost a bliss to get positive Ki from training to better one's wellbeing than training so you can do shiho nage/kumi nage on someone that annoys you.

I even tried calligraphy...Im tereible at it.
_________________________
Sumorai Speak softly Kiai loudly carry a big kamagong boken

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