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#237376 - 08/15/06 05:41 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko,
You don't have to convince me that aikido has good self defense techniques, but they can "be messed around with" and still be effective. I do it all the time by "short-cutting" an aikido technique into one of my jujutsu techniques, and it drives "real aikidoka" crazy...

As you say, any conflict has to be "handled" first, and redirected as you have the ability and opportunity. Strength is overcome by taking away balance or leverage, and isn't all that hard to do in "training situations", but when you have a guy who's pumped up on adrenalin, they aren't so "compliant" and a shot to the throat, eyes, or groin will usually "soften them up"...

I'm not one of those aikidoka that don't use atemi... I knock the crap out of my attacker on every technique if possible, and then try to make their world collapse in on top of them.

While OSensei talked a lot about peace, love, and world peace, he created one of the most deadly and violent unarmed combat systems in history. Like Professor Kano, he figured out how to teach it without killing the ukes, and in a manner to teach the ukes how to dissipate the force without injury. It's one of the anomolies of the art... that it is so violent in practice and peaceful in intent, because any casual observer would get the exact opposite view of it's makeup.

I've always believed in keeping it real in practice, so if you need it, you've got it. I wouldn't have a "McDojo" under my name in any way, shape, or fashion... and while it's called "gentle art", my jujutsu and aikido "ain't for the young"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237377 - 08/15/06 07:25 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

... It's one of the anomolies of the art... that it is so violent in practice and peaceful in intent, because any casual observer would get the exact opposite view of it's makeup.




Hidden in plain sight....

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#237378 - 08/16/06 02:58 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Neko456]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Niko456:

<<I don't know fighting sometimes call for offensive power moves. I know thats not, Aikidos way but, to me its real.

I think you'd get some REAL compelling disagreements from the Yoshinkan (Shioda) Aiki folks to name but one potent group of a numerous bunch.

Myself, I am not convinced I would want anybody of any branch regardless of the art/arts to share their "gifts" and to protect themselves upon me. Too easy to get smashed, too easy to be damaged...

Jeff

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#237379 - 08/16/06 08:28 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Anyone who studies "real" self defense knows that the defensive movements go all the way back to the intent of the attacker. While in practice there is no "first move" on the part of the aikidoka in the teaching syllabus, in actual practice, there are many methods of "stopping the attack before it gets started".

Redirection only requires intent... not actually action on the part of the attacker, and blending with them sometimes is like an internet board... it takes a "bump" if you need to get them moving in the right direction...

Not to disparage Yoshinkan, but they aren't the only ones with a license to make a first move. It's what we consider the "military style" of Aikido, and while Shioda Sensei looked like he worked miracles with his technique, it was just another opinion on Aikido during its developmental stages.

Remember that many of the masters of Aikido developed the area of it they were best in... that's how we ended up with different "styles". Tohei developed a style... Shioda... Tomiki... they're all aikido, with different styles and different focus points in the training... that doesn't mean that they still can't leave a 6-inch impression in the mat with you when they do their technique...

Many of those stylea are "returning to the original" these days, so Aikido is becoming more homogenous again... and if they can keep egos from getting into the mix, and keep the charlatans out, it'll stay a good traditional art. Only time will tell...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237380 - 08/16/06 01:16 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

Merely chose Yoshinkan as I can spell remotely closely and seems moderately popular? If "it" becomes physical we failed on all kinds of levels... IMV. Don't want to be choked, bent, kicked, punched, twisted, or zapped by anybody... Tomeki, Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, or anybody else for that matter. It all hurts, done correctly...

PS there ever anything but "developmental" ? Its always whomever's art originally but our bodies... and honed, nuanced with time, no?

Jeff

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#237381 - 08/16/06 03:24 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

If "it" becomes physical we failed on all kinds of levels... IMV.




Well, other than throwing "chi balls" at an attacker, every fight is going to get physical. How well you handle it depends on your skills.

Quote:

PS there ever anything but "developmental" ?




Absolutely... it might be developmental for you, because you don't know it well, but there's nothing developmental about aikido right now, except for the blending of two people into a technique from an attack. In that sense, everything in fighting is developmental... it develops from the intent and attack.

What is taught has usually been proved effective.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237382 - 08/17/06 01:22 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:



I appreciate your patience in helping discuss this issue a bit. Thank you.

<<Well, other than throwing "chi balls" at an attacker,

Thought that was a "Keebler" product ?!

<<every fight is going to get physical. How well you handle it depends on your skills.

Short of walking into a deliberate ambush... things can be done to still de-escalate situations correct? Someone's head space (or its lack) is a good place to reroute & deflect things. Distract me, confuse me, change my attention but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable... even afterward, if, if ones skill is sufficent and one is "thick skinned".

As to Aikido's being develepmental... or not

The art which any of us study is always being developed, nuanced, and having its rough edges polished... What a person does when first starting anything whether "learning" it or teaching it (rhetorically are they not the same?) first starting things are a little rough. In time a little different, with more time becoming more subtle, polished still? Not that what is taught earlier is in any way wrong merely tweaked in certain ways...

By definition, the art whatever yours or mine might specifically be, they are always developing. Hearing something the first time, I can misperceive the information. With time perceive the information differently, more deeply one hopes? When the change is fundamental philosophy, the information base is different again. Aiki, Te, Wushu(generic) myself I see no difference... Perhaps our practice is more signifigant than what might never be (ie "real")

In these respects, everybody's art is constantly developing. I appreciate & accept your blending of assailants being developmental in process. I was merely thinking prior to that point...

Merely my perspective, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#237383 - 08/17/06 09:13 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Short of walking into a deliberate ambush... things can be done to still de-escalate situations correct? Someone's head space (or its lack) is a good place to reroute & deflect things.




If you want to play mind games, you first need a mind... if you want to be a peacemaker, you need to have overwhelming force...

Quote:

but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable... even afterward, if, if ones skill is sufficent and one is "thick skinned".





You need to study hostage negotiation instead of martial arts. You seem to be all about "resolving conflict" which isn't in the syllabus for martial arts... conflict is resolved by the best technique...

Quote:

By definition, the art whatever yours or mine might specifically be, they are always developing.




I'd totally disagree with that premise... what's known is known, and in combat situations, what works and doesn't is known unless your teacher sucks. Our skills might be developmental, but not the techniques themselves... otherwise, how can you teach them? I'm not much on a "try this, and if it doesn't work... try this... and if..."

There are probably a hundred ways to do every throw in Judo and jujutsu, but there is an accepted standard and that's what's taught. Learning variations is not necessarily developmental, just expansion of the skill set...

Quote:

In these respects, everybody's art is constantly developing. I appreciate & accept your blending of assailants being developmental in process. I was merely thinking prior to that point...




That's a "momentary thing", not "developmental" in the sense of creating something new... it's developmental in the sense of simply blending two energies in order to dissipate them. Each technique in Aikido IS a learning experience, but only for "technique memory", not for developing a different aptitude. Irimi is irimi... tenkan is tenkan... ura is ura... how well you do your techniques is how you fall between the cracks in them.

Not being argumentative... just trying to give you a better perspective in what fighting is all about... it isn't sitting around the campfire singing "Kumbayah" and telling everybody to be friends...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237384 - 08/18/06 12:33 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Quote:

Short of walking into a deliberate ambush... things can be done to still de-escalate situations correct? Someone's head space (or its lack) is a good place to reroute & deflect things. Distract me, confuse me, change my attention but until the first blow is landed, the battle is potentially avoidable... even afterward, if, if ones skill is sufficent and one is "thick skinned".



A fight effectively begins with the intention—NOT the first blow, which might not be delivered until relatively late in the game. (Ever been stalked?) Once I discern the intention, everything I do—including what might come out of my mouth (aka kuchiwaza, "mouth technique" )—functions either to help me escape or to put my would-be attacker down. If my opponent changes his mind about attacking me—great! But to make that my primary objective would be like reaching directly for a hand holding a knife, thinking that I could disarm it directly without first getting out of the way and controlling the movement of the whole arm. I sure wouldn't want to count on my ability to do that!

This much said, though, I can see how negotiation and the application of preemptive force form the polar ends of a single tactical continuum, part of a larger strategic framework contextualizing the application of martial techniques as one mode of managing conflict. What you choose to do, and when, is a function of your discretion.

Now, I’m one of those people who finds O-Sensei’s vision of budo as an expression of divine love very appealing—a seeming conundrum, in fact, with which I’ve been grappling through most of my martial arts career. Still, I’ve found from my own experience that the capacity to accept and even care for people as they are depends on a certain toughness of mind and a full appreciation of human nature’s dark side as well as hopes for the light. Otherwise, that all-important tender heart can get pulped like fruit in a blender …

Sorry for the sermon, Ronin. I suspect that I may have gone off on a tangent here. The part of your post that I’ve quoted, though, resonates with a certain ethical or even spiritual viewpoint, and I take seriously the proposition that a person’s spirituality and martial arts practice can reinforce each other. Spiritual practice and marital arts have formed the two wings that have helped me fly right in life. I honestly doubt that one side could get off the ground without the other. But then, I’m able to speak only for my own experience, which is solely my own.


Edited by kunin (08/18/06 01:51 AM)
_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

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#237385 - 08/27/06 09:48 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: kunin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Now, I’m one of those people who finds O-Sensei’s vision of budo as an expression of divine love very appealing—a seeming conundrum, in fact, with which I’ve been grappling through most of my martial arts career.




Why the conundrum, Nicole? The tools of the Art of Peace are the same ones as the Art of War. (The exact quote eludes me at the moment).

If you read the writings attributed to Sun Tzu, the admonition is to exercise strategic balance and caution in the conduct of war, in order to minimize the economic and human cost for the good (read "love") of the nation (read "people"), in the event that war is necessary.

Quote:


In the conduct of war, it is preferable to subdue a State
whole and intact rather than to destroy it; to subdue an army
whole and intact, rather than to destroy it…

… To win every battle by actual fighting before a war is won,
it is not the most desirable. To conquer the enemy without
resorting to war is the most desirable.





I believe, given the circumstances of the time (Japan's involvement in the war) and the point at which Ueshiba was, the reference to "divine love" is within the context of one of humanitarianism.

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