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#237366 - 05/11/06 07:21 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

I've listened to thousands of arguments about "dojo" techniques versus "real" techniques over the years, and what is usually misunderstood is the difference in doing a technique as a "training application" and a "self defense application".

First of all, both techniques should be the same, but executed with a difference in intent and force application. Most of the injuries we see in aikido is with people doing shiho nage and either ripping someone's shoulder out or slamming them into the mats for a concussion.

You have to "let them down" with an appropriate amount of force. On the street, for self defense, you can rip their arm off and beat them with the bloody stump... but you should always learn when and how to do both.






lol that happened the first time I did shiho-nage

I cut down all at once instead of putting my arm out first and gently "guiding" the person down. I felt bad but I was a new member so I remember I also felt good knowing these were real techniques... learning experience.

Doing the technique politely several thousand times is the way to train for doing it properly and hard. Doesn't sound like it works but it really does.


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#237367 - 05/12/06 10:35 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
I agree with you 50% Speedy.

Yes, doing it slow and often is a good method to learn the TECHNIQUE. But Self Defense is not only about technique, because Self Defense is, above all, a SITUATION with a very definite ENVIRONMENT. The Dojo practice, so controlled, can lead to effectively incorporating the technique into muscular memory, which is great for performing it later on street. But people need to have some kind of brain response against all the hostil environment that he / she will face on Self Defense situation (violent rythm, adrenaline pumping, screams, noise, wet floor, etc.). So, I think that in modern day Aikido these factors must be incorporated into practice, together with the Traditional training methods. For example adding some RBSD training to the Belt Programs.

And making a lot of Randori, because otherwise they scarcely know what making a technique on a full resistant adversary is. Tomiki San understod it very well, and I admire him for it, though I donīt like the idea of competitions.

Friend of all of you
Dud

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#237368 - 05/12/06 08:45 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: dud]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
I think we agree with each other more than that. The part above was just about larning the technique, practice should definitely include rigourous randori once the student is ready. That is where you begin to move past the mere physical technique and go into the "feeling" of your opponent, and timing.

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#237369 - 05/22/06 09:21 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Exactly!

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#237370 - 06/18/06 08:25 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Speedy,
I think you're close to correct. We all have slammed somebody when we were learning a technique (by accident)and had to apologize, but the techniques ramp up as we learn them and then the timing and flow come into play. We learn ukemi to protect ourselves from the nage waza, and the nage waza to protect ourselves from the attack, so we are always in the "protection" mode.

Correct development of technique requires me to give my uke my best... not something "toned down" or to make judgements about whether they can "handle" the technique, because they have to practice full speed just like I do. What is missing from this conversation is that we need to talk to our ukes and nages, and if they need us to slow down, have them tell us... but when that happens, it usually starts "conversations" of practice rather than practice.

Decide what speed you and your uke can handle, practice at that speed until you can ramp it up to full speed. You'll both be better that way... and if somebody gets slammed, it's their responsibility to ramp up their ukemi as well.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237371 - 08/14/06 04:26 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI wrist twister.
Seems like the thread has come to a halt so hope you dont mind me posting this?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6040579594687534032&q=wrestling++techniques

Firstly what do you think to the techniques?
IM having difficulty locationg a good aikido dojo so how would these be trained?

Thanks


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#237372 - 08/14/06 07:08 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I can't ever remember doing a technique that slowly unless I was explaining it to someone. As a demo, it's fair, but not much "oomph" in them.

Hopefully that wasn't a black belt demonstrating them. If it was, they need to step it up several notches...

"Handshake techniques" are like sucker punches to jujutsuka and aikidoka. They are normally taught at beginner levels to help familiarize students with locking and twisting principles.

On a scale of 1 to 10, it was about a 2.5.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237373 - 08/15/06 03:12 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


That appeals to my

"wanna do it" and seeing it even better me doing it would increase my the natural "measure of pleasure "

hormones that should run around my brain.

Have you ever wrote a book or put together a DVD?
I know better learning live but the problem is finding that some one to teach live.

Thanks



Edited by ANDY44 (08/15/06 03:19 AM)

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#237374 - 08/15/06 10:35 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Personally I see Aikido as one of those self defense arts that never got suckered into sport aspect. All of its techiuques to me are self-defense based and can't be messed with or you will risk injury.

What I don't like is the ideal beaten in that you should never use strength, be that as it may. In a Real situation sometimes rules of a system have to changed until you get things going your way.

My problem with Aikido in application, because I'm not very skilled in it. Though I like its approach and its a beautiful art. Is that when incoming are coming, its hard to get things going your way until you control the situation. Its hard to stay within yourself and in control of his motion as is in the dojo. I'm skilled in a striking art, once I've stopped or slowed their motion, with a kick or strike then I can apply the Aikido move. I know most Aikido has atemi but some don't adhear to it.

So Aikido techniques are very Real and deadly self-defense moves, once you get past A to B. Should it always be effortless and defensive in application, I don't know fighting sometimes call for offensive power moves. I know thats not, Aikidos way but, to me its real.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#237375 - 08/15/06 05:21 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Andy,
that video would promote a "learn it on your own" player, and regardless of how easy the techniques look, there are points that need to be taught by a qualified instructor... not "looked at" and then guessed at. You wouldn't want to bet your life on something that might work if you figured it out the right way.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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