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#237356 - 03/09/06 07:19 PM Real techniques versus dojo techniques
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've listened to thousands of arguments about "dojo" techniques versus "real" techniques over the years, and what is usually misunderstood is the difference in doing a technique as a "training application" and a "self defense application".

First of all, both techniques should be the same, but executed with a difference in intent and force application. Most of the injuries we see in aikido is with people doing shiho nage and either ripping someone's shoulder out or slamming them into the mats for a concussion.

If you're training with anyone in any dojo, you need to be cognizant of the fact that both of you probably have to go to work tomorrow, so slamming and recklessly injuring your training partners isn't going to be well received. That doesn't mean that you have to "go soft" on the techniques, only exercise the kind of caution that allows your uke to protect themselves using either ukemi or by tapping out.

Shiho nage is the perfect technique to see if your students respect each other, because if you teach it correctly, they will execute the technique toward the spine in the dojo, which allows the uke to arch over and fall without injuring themselves. If they take the technique toward the outside of the hip, it can rip out the shoulder joint and cause problems from now on. (A careless technique at a seminar is how I acquired a torn rotator cuff... admininsterd by a high ranking teacher that didn't have a clue about how to train safely).

While you have to have your mind right in order to execute techniques for self defense, you can't go "all out" without considering your partner's ability in the dojo and keep them in one piece. When people are paying to learn martial arts, some bozos think that they signed up to let you hurt them intentionally, and there's more than enough of that to go around in "good training", much less being subjected to abuse because someone thinks they need to kill you in order to see if their technique works.

I have no problem in conducting a match under those circumstances, but most of the time, it's someone that gets ambushed by another student or teacher that just tees off on them without warning that gets injured, simply because they assume that safety is the rule of the dojo. As long as both of us are playing under the same rules, you can't complain if you go home on a stretcher, but most injuries I've seen over the years were "ambushes" to an unsuspecting uke.

When I started in karate, we had training in "control"... and it wasn't just an instruction. It was a learned skill.
Today, with hand and foot pads and headgear, people train like that 1" piece of foam is going to stop my 900 pound front punch from hurting you. It doesn't work.

When you're training in aikido, you can't drop your weight on the uke's arm after you get them into proper application posture. You have to "let them down" with an appropriate amount of force. On the street, for self defense, you can rip their arm off and beat them with the bloody stump... but you should always learn when and how to do both.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237357 - 03/10/06 06:24 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Excellent advice. I think the crux of the issue is the (flawed) perception that we are doing a martial art and therefore it has to be "realistic". What most don't realize is that there is a significant difference between "reality" and "training method". But the reality is no different to how one trains. The key being "how"... which is usually misunderstood as "realistic", rather than "intent".

Some of the best martial artists I have trained with, had such precise control that it would be hard to escape without having my wrist or arm broken or dislocated. Others, some of whom were of "high" degrees of rank, simply had no control - those I learned to avoid or be more cognizant of protecting myself... from them.

There's a fine line between allowing someone to practice a technique on you, and protecting yourself. Sometimes, the latter can be misconstrued as "being resistant", resulting in the person attempting to resort to various means to "make it work". This is where the danger lies.

Apart from the obvious need for personal safety and playing "nicely" with a partner, martial arts training is primarily about exercising control - both of the Self, and in the execution of technique.

From a self-defence perspective, there is this thing called justifiable or reasonable "use of force". Many aikido (and jujitsu for that matter) techniques require very little "force". If the angles and directions are "right", it doesn't take much to drop someone. How much force is applied to make it work, is merely a matter of (self) control.

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#237358 - 03/10/06 11:04 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Apart from the obvious need for personal safety and playing "nicely" with a partner, martial arts training is primarily about exercising control - both of the Self, and in the execution of technique.





The crux of the problem is that we don't do martial arts as "full time" activity like the samurai, or for the same reasons. Motivation plays a lot in the mental aptitude to do anything, and it's cruising through life in neutral that destroys the martial mind. We need to have the martial mindset all the time, or go play soccer and baseball to occupy our time.

Martial arts is all about intent, and you can't be training to "be nice" and learn the real skills... but you can't train with people who have to go to work tomorrow and tee off on them with everything you've got. Learning to "go hard" under control is a form of discipline that has to be learned. "Control" isn't an instruction, but a skill, and where most martial arts go wrong today is that they forget to teach it... and it shows in the loss of consumate quality of technique.

When people tell me "I can't go full blast every technique", I tell them "then I will win... because I will"... and in that statement, is the difference.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237359 - 03/10/06 11:35 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristwister:

You spoke of another critical element, the usage of actual WORDS to ask, "...lets turn this up a bit, is that all right with you...?" The more words the better so there is no misunderstanding...

Even going litely I do not want to be hit by most which I encounter... I prefer my "parts" ~unbruised~ when I can prevent that thanks
J

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#237360 - 03/11/06 12:15 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Martial arts is all about intent, and you can't be training to "be nice" and learn the real skills... but you can't train with people who have to go to work tomorrow and tee off on them with everything you've got. Learning to "go hard" under control is a form of discipline that has to be learned. "Control" isn't an instruction, but a skill, and where most martial arts go wrong today is that they forget to teach it... and it shows in the loss of consumate quality of technique.

When people tell me "I can't go full blast every technique", I tell them "then I will win... because I will"... and in that statement, is the difference.





I agree it's all about intent. Where I disagree is not in being nice, but playing nice for the reasons you listed. MA is never about being nice. It's all about hurting, disabling, maiming and killing the other person. But playing nice within the context of something designed to maim and kill the opponent, is a whole different ball game, and it's not always about winning or losing, but about learning.

Especially in aikido, the moment you talk about winning and losing, the learning stops.

I agree that control is learnt skill, but I disagree that it's necessarily about going "full blast", although going full blast is a way of learning to play at a higher level.

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#237361 - 03/11/06 12:48 AM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You phrased it a little better than I did, but I think we're on the same page. It is never about winning or losing, but about remaining undefeated.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237362 - 03/11/06 05:51 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yes, I think we are on the same page.

Aikido is full of paradoxes. Victory and defeat, winning and losing, etc.

I'd make a longer post regarding some of the paradoxes, particularly in relation to certain aspects of Japanese/Chinese cosmology that it draws from, but I need to organize my notes and thoughts on the subject.

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#237363 - 03/12/06 11:57 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: eyrie]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

it's not always about winning or losing, but about learning...<SNIP>...Especially in aikido, the moment you talk about winning and losing, the learning stops.




Xuzen agrees. Ossu!
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#237364 - 05/11/06 04:09 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: xuzen_628]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Greetings!

I am remembering now that once a new student applied to me a ShihoNage that almost killed me. it was his first day and he was like 150 pounds heavier than me. He smashed me with all his strenght. I did Ukemi but it was like a mammuth chargings!

But anyway, donīt you think that TOO much respect and softness is too dangerous, because our partner is not learning what real attacks are? We have a phrase here: when someone is hitted and he resents himself, we say; 'Well, go and play chess. is a safer game'. That means: if you wanna make a martial art, you must go ready to take some punishment. Is unavoidable. Otherwise, donīt make a martial art, play chess.

This is a saying we have hereand I agree with that. Sometimes Aikido clases look like a Dancing party for Teen Agres graduating!Jesus! What has this to do with MARTIAL arts?

And I love AIKIDO. I am not debasing it. I am talking about training. O Sensei could defeat anyone who was challenging him! Can we too?

Of course, we say: Aikido is not for fighting or competition. BUT the first generation did impose respect for Aikido defeating challengers! They WERE powerful Martial Artists in FIGHTING! No fear!

The spiritual part of the art, OK, is good for our development as a person: but if as a martial art is not useful, then why calling it a martial art at all? Why not a martial - based philosophy, or Gymnastics, etc. ?

Is my not enlightened opinion. I hope that I amnot offending anyone, because we are all on the same band.

If I offended anybody, I apologize in advance.

Yours
Dud

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#237365 - 05/11/06 04:17 PM Re: Real techniques versus dojo techniques [Re: dud]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
And sorry for the unintentional smirk at the end!

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