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#237079 - 03/09/06 12:42 AM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: ButterflyPalm]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

It would be uesful for non-Aikido people, like me, to have an idea what "attack" means in Aikido training?




Shomen uchi street application example = ice pick grip knife stab

Yokomen uchi street application example = baseball bat or motorcycle crash helmet swing to your head

Gyaku yokomen uchi street application example = similar swing but from the reverse direction

Mune/ shomen tsuki street application example = knife thrust to the stomach or face

And the typical wrist grabs mainly as a form to stop opponent from drawing their weapon.

Hope this helps.

Xwf
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#237080 - 05/11/06 04:37 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: xuzen_628]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Quote:

Quote:

It would be uesful for non-Aikido people, like me, to have an idea what "attack" means in Aikido training?




Shomen uchi street application example = ice pick grip knife stab

Yokomen uchi street application example = baseball bat or motorcycle crash helmet swing to your head

Gyaku yokomen uchi street application example = similar swing but from the reverse direction

Mune/ shomen tsuki street application example = knife thrust to the stomach or face

And the typical wrist grabs mainly as a form to stop opponent from drawing their weapon.

Hope this helps.

Xwf




I find this thread very good!

But look that Sensei wrist spent 20 previous years making Martial Arts before starting Aikido. I wonder why the Aikidoist with a reality based mindset like him almost always have a background in other arts. Pure Aikidoists FROM TODAY live mostly under a shell of ilusion.

About the angles of attacs, I donīt think these attacks that xwf explain and we usually practice, represent EVERYTHING that they can throw us on the street. What about feignting and changing angles or trajectories in the space I think about a good knife fighter with a complicated slashing pattern of Kali. Or a good boxer, for example, who will feign and move a lot, and will land the artillary only at the right time.

Can this be avoided by a Mushotoku? Sure. A 'inamovable spirit' Aikidoist will react in right time and he will aply the right technique to the boxer or the Kali knife fighter on right time. But do we train against this kind of uncompromised attacks on our Dojos?

Question opened.
Regards
Dud

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#237081 - 05/11/06 07:03 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: dud]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Dud,
I don't just train with anybody. I had wanted to study aikido for most of the 20 years when I first started MA, but I finally met my "training partner" who was trained by one of Ueshiba Sensei's ukes.

I say that because it's hard to train against fighting techniques if the people you're using for ukes don't know how to fight. Both he and I use a "hit me if you can" training statement to our students, and I expect them to be trying to hit me when they attack. Most of the "newer" aikido schools I've seen, the attacks look like waving at your friends rather than fighting, and they pay little attention to the angles of attack and defense until they're already black belt level and having to go re-learn what they know to keep from getting killed in randori.

My friend and tutor in Aikido was Toyoda Sensei, who was uchi deshi with Tohei Sensei. He and I practiced "the old style" of aikido, that was rift with jujutsu technique and not so much "blending". I give him much of the credit for my "spiraling energy" techniques on which my jujutsu system if based.

Who you study with has a lot to do with what kind of technique you have. I've always sought out people who were traditional, close to the source, and with excellent skills. If you're looking for a road map to excellent training, that's it...

It doesn't take long to weed out the sheisters when you do things that way either. BS may sell to the public, but if you're well grounded in your technique, you can wipe the BSers off the mats pretty quickly. Realism makes better martial arts, even with the occasional injuries.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237082 - 05/11/06 07:37 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: Chanters]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
I could never, ever catch my sensei; the man is 60 years old and I could never in any way keep up with him, so I have no problem using my full out fastest punches on him.

On the other hand, I actually hit a few of the members higher ranking than me, and I have some boxing background. Before and after class we do some drills together and the senior members I usually train with are really tough so neither of us minds if either of us gets hit, but when it comes to during class, I don't feel it would be approriate to have a student be able to hit a higher ranking member or to (sorry to say this) hit a female.

What I usually do it "tense up" the attack, and you know that if the punch doesn't start loose it slows it down tremendously. That way I don't unreasonably hit the slower students but at the same time I can still give them power to work with.

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#237083 - 05/11/06 07:46 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristwister:

<<"hit me... if you can".

We can start carefully and increase our "committment" level. All of us need caution, care starting out at "full tilt". Too hard and all you get back is the primitive response rather than the correct technique & execution. Because we want to learn and ingrain techniques we must start slowly and progress accordingly. Done otherwise and things risk becoming dangerous too fast...

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#237084 - 05/11/06 08:41 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ronin,
not everybody has the skills to train that way, but you don't get better by going until it's easy. Nobody's skills pick up by training at the level they are... everything has to be extended so it's a challenge.

When I first started training this way, it was like Dagwood Bumstead trying to catch the bus, but as I learned to move correctly, and understand the "line of attack", things became easier and the attacks "slowed down"... not because the attacks slowed down, but because my response improved.

If all you ever block is a "slow punch", that's all you'll ever be able to block. Martial arts are all about intent...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237085 - 05/12/06 10:14 AM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: wristtwister]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Quote:

If all you ever block is a "slow punch", that's all you'll ever be able to block. Martial arts are all about intent...




First, I congratulate Sensei Wrist for the wonderful oportunity that he so eagerly seeked and finally got, to train with this wonderful Master. Though I want to remark that few persons Today have had this so marvellous chance, so Aikidoists from our generation are swimming in the pool of a very contaminated water, mainly due to the absence of good Masters like the Sensei of Mr. Wrist.

Second, I think that this sentence that he states and I quoted is the answer to all our crisis in Aikido Dojos Today. I second the opinion tat Aikido can be dangerous if practiced in full speed and strenght on a Dojo. But too Karate, and Muay Thai and other martial arts are! If persons want to practice a martial art and come to n Aikido Dojo, they are taking a risk, ay? They want to learn Self Defense and to learn this one must take risks (falls, hits, etc.). So, why should we let the high speed and adrenal training only for high levels, instead of teaching new Aikidoist to DEFEND themselves with Aikido? I am not talking of killing eachother in a Dojo, but to start a rough CONTROLLED practice SINCE the begining.

It is incredible how many persons, even in Aikido lines, doubt of the effectiveness of Aikido as Self Defense method. Sure they must, if they train for 'Dancing a martial - like choreography'. But this is a problem with teachingīs methodology NOT with the art itself!

If other arts debase Aikido so much as Self defense method is our own flaw. Yes, we take refuge in the Philosophy of the art, to avoid the demands of a COMPLETE training. Philosophy? Yes, AIkido has a non fighting Philosphy that can cure this world. But is a GOOD Self Defense method too. Is a very complete art. And the merit lies in that Aikido can add to itīs noble philosophy, so great as Gandhiīs, the effectiveness of real Budo. Not every other system can make such a claim of wholeness. But is more easy to transform a Dojo in a soft Ballet for any kind of persons who donīt want to train hard, in bad physical shape, without pain resistance, etc., give them some dancing classes and a lot of pacifist teaching, and after inspiring them a false confidence for the street, we give them a belt. This we call it Aikido. BS! Teach them SINCE THE BEGINING the full speed attack, the full force defense (always controlling the environment, I repeat).. apply all this to modern street atacks, make this art ALIVE and save their lives on the street!!!!!

With such a training Aikidoist wonīt need to go anywhere looking for Self Defense effectivenes. Within Aikido we have all the potential to develop this confidence based on facts. Is just a matter of deciding ourselves to strive for it. A good Aikidoist can beat the hell out of anyone, turning his own energy against himself, without becoming a violent person. This is the magic and secret of Aikido. A watered Aikido that donīt teach to face violence effectively, is wasting in vane this treasure that is our art.

I think that bad training is a cancer, because it can inspire a false confidence on a person that will lead her to destruction! And false confidence is always bad, but when dealing with life / death matters, like a Self Defense situation, false confidence is a MORTAL SIN for me.

Friend for all
Dud

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#237086 - 05/12/06 08:54 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: dud]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

If all you ever block is a "slow punch", that's all you'll ever be able to block. Martial arts are all about intent...




I don't know who "Sensei Wrist" is, but with all due respect I believe this is a hlaf-truth.

In boxing we all know has some of the fastest punches and a wide variety of punches. But when we do mit work and learn new combos, expecially the first time the student learns to bob wweave, slip and counter, we emphasize starting slow. The first order is learning a technique, then after that we progress speed until it becomes instinct and natural. Without starting slow proper technique can't be learned, and thus the student will never be able to properly react to anything.

As aikido techniques are generally more complex than boxing techniques, it's understandable that the students spend more time on the slow/learning stage before going full out. There has to be a progression.

As Takuan Soho said, it is like two wheels on a barrel. Without one wheel, you will basically just be going in circles and not progress. One must both practice will full out fast, hard, and genuine punches AND learn the technique, and learning the technique takes a slower and more understanding, non-resistant and "easier" uke before it can deal with "hard" uke.

Of course once a technique is sufficiently learned randori should be done rigorously thousands of times to reeach teh stage of what daito ryu calls "aiki no jutsu" But even Daito Ryu has two stages before that - jujutsu and aikijujutsu. Progress takes time.

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#237087 - 05/12/06 10:19 PM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

As aikido techniques are generally more complex than boxing techniques, it's understandable that the students spend more time on the slow/learning stage before going full out. There has to be a progression.





Hopefully, nobody thinks that we don't slow down enough to show students how to do the technique and teach them successfully, but we expect and train with a full speed attack and response. I disagree that aikido techniques are either slower or more complex than boxing, they're just different. I will agree, however, that the study is more complex in many ways. Where boxing is "force delivery" and movement as the sum of its technique, aikido uses force delivery as a part of its technique, and blending movements to execute them... but of course, that's probably another half-truth...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#237088 - 11/06/06 09:48 AM Re: Realistic attacks in training [Re: Chanters]
Isatheprophet2000 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 32
Hi

You cannot blame the beginner for that, but funny enough beginners in karate are told not to go too fast in hitting, because they have no control, they end you belting people.

I had been training on bags only for a long time,. when I went to the dojo I lost the ablity to pull. I was not hitting remotely full power more like 5% but it was still hurting people.

I did it to my son who is only seven I caught him on the chest, luckly it was just a glance but I could of hurt him bad.

My problem in aikido is using to much strength instead of techinques, that of course its a beginners nature, and one cannot be blamed for that.

best wishes

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