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#235808 - 03/03/06 03:05 AM Why do you condition you shins/forearms?
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Ripped it from another thread:

Quote:

Ok, to all you persistent martial artists out there. Before going on to conditioning let me ask you;

Why do you want to condition? Unless you're going professional, I don't see the need to condition anything. The best conditioning you can do is just work on the bag and with a sparring partner using pads and then a little full contact every now and then.

Ok, I hijacked the thread, but it's kinda odd that everyone except me wants to condition. I find it boring, slow and just a waste of my time when I could just go onto the bag. I mean, there's more conditioning if you can kick the bag for 30 minutes constantly than rolling a pipe on your leg for the same amount of time AND by kicking the bag you'll be conditioning the right part of your leg e.i. the part that makes contact. Condition elsewhere it's just a waste of time. Let me ask you again, would I ever kick you on the knee with my instep? If it's a sidekick, no matter how good the conditioning, you're knee's are GONE.





Ok, discuss!

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235809 - 03/03/06 03:43 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Ripped this from the other conditioning thread this post was ripped from.

Quote:

I could see doing shin conditioning if you are a competetion fighter,but if you aren't I think you are doing more harm than good.
My shins are well enough conditioned from sparring and kicking a heavy bag over the years.
My forehead ,however,needs work.





_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#235810 - 03/03/06 07:44 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: BrianS]
Dauragon c mikado Offline


Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1246
Loc: Oxford, England
Simply to become stronger.
Why do I want to become stronger? So Im not weak.
Why dont I want to be weak? Because I want to feel strong.
Why do I want to feel strong? So I dont feel weak.
Why dont I want to feel weak? Because the weak will die.
Why dont I wish to die? Because I want to become stronger.
Why do you want to become stonger?....
_________________________
The way of the warrior is a resolute acceptance of death. -Musashi

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#235811 - 03/03/06 12:27 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Well, for the most part because I CAN

But my reasons change constantly - if I were set on just kicking heavy bags for years and years, I probably wouldn't bother. However, I engage in contact sparring, sometimes without shin guards (this is usually only in MMA classes) and well, shin block freakin' hurt. I also avidly practice FMA which requires blocking sticks with shins/forearms sometimes. Even the knife tapping (forearm block and parry) drills hurt within a couple minutes to an unconditioned arm. I'm not a competitive type, but I do train with some very tough hombres who don't necessarily take it easy in sparring. That's just Chicago for you. So if I'm wasting my time conditioning... fine!

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#235812 - 03/03/06 01:48 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
Uchinanchu Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
Taison, please don't take this the wrong way, but for someone who has trained in MT as long as you have, I would think that you would already know why conditioning is an essential requirement to training. If you choose not to do it, that's your choice. It may be a waste of time to you, but it certainly is'nt for those of us who take our self defence seriously. And what do you mean by "going professional"? If you are referring to sport/ring fighting, then yes you should do conditioning drills. But even more so for those of us who do it strictly for self defence purposes.
There are individuals in this world that I pray no descent man will ever have to face. You throw your strongest kick, at such an individual, and not only does your leg bounce off with no effect to him, but it felt like you just kicked a telephone pole. You block his incoming strikes and realize that your hurting yourself more than him. This man is not going to play nice and hit you in just your conditioned areas either (ie.the part of the shin that you kick with.)
I have three personal reasons for doing the so-called "Waste of time training" they are my lovely wife and two children. Is that good enough a reason to be prepared?
_________________________
All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power.

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#235813 - 03/03/06 02:36 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Uchinanchu]
TwistingKick Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 194
Loc: UK (oxford)
Quote:

There are individuals in this world that I pray no descent man will ever have to face. You throw your strongest kick, at such an individual, and not only does your leg bounce off with no effect to him, but it felt like you just kicked a telephone pole. You block his incoming strikes and realize that your hurting yourself more than him.




No offence, but either you don't have very good kicks or you are aiming your kicks at the wrong areas of the body.
Very few men can take a full power kick to the groin, i don't care how big they are.

The only people i can think of that would possibly (??) have a body conditioned enough to take your full power strikes with no effect at all (!!) are MArtists with a lot of dedication, most of whom would know by then not to use it.

p.s. this does not mean i completely disagre with conditioning
_________________________
Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes!!

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#235814 - 03/03/06 02:48 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Uchinanchu]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

This man is not going to play nice and hit you in just your conditioned areas either (ie.the part of the shin that you kick with.)





Um, even the people I do play nice with don't kick at that part. That's why you condition it - so YOU can USE IT to BLOCK
ps - Taison didn't write that himself, he quoted it.

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#235815 - 03/03/06 02:54 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I condition my forearms by conditioning the muscles in them. I need to have strong forearms for blocking. As far as my shins go heavy bag is enough for me.

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#235816 - 03/03/06 04:08 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Uchinanchu]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

There are individuals in this world that I pray no descent man will ever have to face. You throw your strongest kick, at such an individual, and not only does your leg bounce off with no effect to him, but it felt like you just kicked a telephone pole. You block his incoming strikes and realize that your hurting yourself more than him. This man is not going to play nice and hit you in just your conditioned areas either (ie.the part of the shin that you kick with.)




In that case, I doubt any level of conditioning will help you- my advice is to run. I have met guys like this(none of them aggressive), one had the nickname "concrete". He once took a few punches from an ameteur boxer and hardly flinched and my word does he hit hard! Such guys are not worth trying to defend yourself against, the only possible course of action is to run.

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#235817 - 03/03/06 04:27 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
TwistingKick Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 194
Loc: UK (oxford)
Quote:

ps - Taison didn't write that himself, he quoted it.




Sorry but Taison did write it : Taison quote

edit: In fact it was in a thread that you started on shin conditioning.


Edited by TwistingKick (03/03/06 04:30 PM)
_________________________
Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes!!

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#235818 - 03/03/06 04:33 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: TwistingKick]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
conditioning by banging away at your bones is a bad idea, it can lead to all sorts of bad things, right up to bone cancer.

Martial arts "traditionally" is about health and wellness, conditioning is about showing everyone how tough you are at the expense of that.
_________________________

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#235819 - 03/03/06 04:52 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: TwistingKick]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Heh. And here I was thinking it was the SAME thread!

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#235820 - 03/03/06 11:43 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
The reason I started conditioning is because the first ring fight I was in I realized what a asset it is. I fought in the ring for five years. I hardly find spending ten minutes a day on conditioning a waste of time. I think people spend more time on their computers a day conditioning their fingertips than I do my shins/forearms.
I do conditioning to give out hits just as much as being able to take them. It has nothing to do with one trying to act "tough" it gives you that extra element in your ability.
Taison, nobody said it was body armour that would stop anything and the sidekick to the knee is highly overrated. When we would fight the Thais they loved to try and kick your knees out. Master Kak(Now lives in Michigan, USA) formally from Thailand and a Thai champ himself would bring his fighters down to our bouts. So I know what a benefit conditioning is.

Kevin

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#235821 - 03/04/06 04:16 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: AndrewGreen]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
This is not an excuse but the reason why I wrote like that. . . Is so that you people would flame me and so that I could see all kinds of reason why to condition. If I wrote "Conditioning is essential and should be done everyday", all you guys would write would be "Agree" or "Ok" and this discussion would die it in 4 posts. Now, look at what type of assembly I have done by disagreeing with condition

Anyway, AndrewGreen had a good point though, bone-cancer may be caused from conditioning, but still conditioning should be done but not to an extreme.

It's funny how emotional you guys can get when a Mod disagrees with some training technique. Anyway, keep on the post. I wanna see more reasons.

The thing about busting your knees with a side-kick. You don't believe me? Well, stand still with your legs straight. Now let your friend side-kick your knee with full force. I wonder if any conditioning can stand that. Happened to me once, and trust me, I couldn't stand for a while.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235822 - 03/04/06 07:27 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
Drag'n Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:


The thing about busting your knees with a side-kick. You don't believe me? Well, stand still with your legs straight. Now let your friend side-kick your knee with full force. I wonder if any conditioning can stand that. Happened to me once, and trust me, I couldn't stand for a while.

-Taison out




Sure if you stand there rigid, most techs will do extreme damage. If you stand there face on and I hit you with a straight right, I garuntee you'll go down! But a fight is dynamic. Every small action invokes a reaction in your opponent. Thats why its so hard to KO someone with skill. And its also why so called deadly techs aren't all their made out to be.
Thats why we do our best to condition those body parts we need for attack and defence and learn how to protect those parts which we cant condition.
Traditionally thats always been a part of MA training.
Still you also have to think about the long term effects of your training and not go overboard. For some people conditioning can turn into an ego thing.
For those of us who compete in full contact its just a necessarry part of our training. Try using shin blocks or kicks without conditioned shins , and no pads, and you'll realise the importance of conditioning very quickly!
Kicking the heavy bag is the best form of conditioning. You can kick it with the intention of conditioning by using different parts of the shin. Rotating the shin slightly up or down to get the entire surface. Because in a fight you dont always make contact with the part you intended . Your whole shin has to be strong.
I also hit the bag without gloves or bandages sometimes to strengthen my wrists and knuckles. Boxers have been known to break their wrists when punching in a street fight because their wrists werent strong enough to support the power of their punches.
_________________________
You fight like you train

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#235823 - 03/04/06 01:50 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Dude, I believe you. I've been on the receiving end of that one before I started MA. Took it from someone who had like a week and a half of TKD. If that hurt as bad as it did, I don't even wanna know what a MT ringfighter could do. The advantage though is that sidekicks are incredibly hard to land on an experienced fighter. I usually only use them as a diversionary tactic - throw one and then follow up with a switch to a roundhouse or hook. When a sidekick comes, just don't be there. Move, use footwork or at the very least, take it square in the chest and trap the leg. But back to shins - has anyone ever been told when shin blocking to keep your toes pointed up? I tried this yesterday and found that the pain wasn't as bad (granted i didn't go near full force).

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#235824 - 03/04/06 05:44 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S

Taison wrote:
"The thing about busting your knees with a side-kick. You don't believe me? Well, stand still with your legs straight. Now let your friend side-kick your knee with full force. I wonder if any conditioning can stand that. Happened to me once, and trust me, I couldn't stand for a while."

All things would work if your opponent just stood there and let you do whatever you wanted.

Kevin

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#235825 - 03/04/06 10:28 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: pathfinder7195]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Well, my point is that conditioning is like an armor right? So if I stood still and someone hit me with a, say, Thai low kick on the shin. My shins could stand the punishment, but if he then throws a sidekick on my knee, bye bye dear knee.

Quote:

All things would work if your opponent just stood there and let you do whatever you wanted.


In psychology, that's called "begging-the-question". You're trying to argue by using an unvalid reason. I said conditioning only works to a certain degree, if you use a particular technique it wouldn't help. The statement you use to argue is "Any technique would work if opponent stood still". Wrong argument point.

Ok, try it in randori. I wonder if 5 years of conditioning would help against a sidekick against the knee. Or if conditioned forearms can stand a kick to the elbow.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235826 - 03/05/06 12:25 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Probably just like how conditioned eyeballs withstand an eye gouge

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#235827 - 03/05/06 06:08 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Exactly.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235828 - 03/05/06 08:02 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
Dauragon c mikado Offline


Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1246
Loc: Oxford, England
look what happened to these guys:
- one eye
- eyeless
- swollen eyes
- another one eye
- blind
- yet nother one eye
- lazy eye
- who knows?
_________________________
The way of the warrior is a resolute acceptance of death. -Musashi

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#235829 - 03/05/06 08:36 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Taison, you are correct conditioning does only work to a certain degree. But what's your point, your basically saying that if your technique is unable to stop everything than it is not worth practicing.

By the way I do have a degree in psychology. I had pro thais trying to kick my knees out it's not that easy. A kick to the knee is one of the most overrated fight stoppers out there. You seem to be obsessed with kicks to the knees thinking that they are the ultimate fight end-er.

So we know that conditioning has it's limits. I don't think that was a big revelation to anyone. So the question should be "does conditioning help you as a MA". Yes.

Kevin

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#235830 - 03/06/06 03:15 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm with Andrew Green on this. Conditioning to take hits is just, well,... there are better things to do than stand and take a hit. That you can take a hit as a result of conditioning is by-the-by. Conditioning in the martial arts is for health and well-being. Its sole purpose is to allow you to perform at a higher level of "operational performance".

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#235831 - 03/06/06 07:26 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: pathfinder7195]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

But what's your point, your basically saying that if your technique is unable to stop everything than it is not worth practicing.



Oh! no! no! I meant that some people just go so far in their conditioning that just seem to think that their body is able to withstand everything. Somethings the body can't stand.

Quote:

I had pro thais trying to kick my knees out it's not that easy. A kick to the knee is one of the most overrated fight stoppers out there.


YEah, it's not an easy task trying to hit someone on the knee but it usually comes if you're a fast fighter.

Quote:

You seem to be obsessed with kicks to the knees thinking that they are the ultimate fight end-er.


I am obessed with sidekicks but ultimate fight ender? nah, my shining .38 is THE ultimate fight ender. On a more serious note, however, I used sidekicks to the knee as an example to where conditioning wouldn't help much. If I used, say, low kicks a'la MT, it's kinda useless against good conditioned legs whereas sidekicks are a lot better against the knee.

Quote:

So the question should be "does conditioning help you as a MA".


Yes. My grandpa used to say "It's better to have something and don't need it, than to need something but you don't have it."

Eyrie, again you awe me with your wisdom. Yes, MA this days should follow along the line of good health than to be a "fighting machine".

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235832 - 03/06/06 03:20 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I think some of this thread is straying from the original point. No one hear is claiming that conditioning shins/forearms is intended to allow you to take shots
That would be kinda stupid. Conditioning these areas is essential because they are BLOCKING surfaces. Even if you don't compete, shin and forearm blocks hurt the uninitiated. Even with light contact drills, shin-to-shin can cause your nerves to sing an aria of pain. That said, I hope you all can see the value in it, even if you don't do it. And please note that none of us are trying to work our way up to bullet proof skin or anything!

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#235833 - 03/06/06 08:22 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Nice post Taison.

Eryie, Nobody does conditioning to stand there and take a hit. That is one of the biggest misconceptions about conditioning. If your body is well conditioned it allows you to give and receive more punishment, and in the ring you need to be able to take a lot of shots.

Kevin

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#235834 - 03/06/06 11:45 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: pathfinder7195]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Perhaps you should read my post again, because I don't think that's what I said. You're taking it out of context. My comments were in response to the general thrust of Taison's post - which is conditioning parts of the body which make contact and by extension, take contact, vis-a-vis "Condition elsewhere it's just a waste of time" and "Unless you're going professional, I don't see the need to condition anything."

Quote:


Nobody does conditioning to stand there and take a hit. That is one of the biggest misconceptions about conditioning. If your body is well conditioned it allows you to give and receive more punishment, and in the ring you need to be able to take a lot of shots.




So, if you're "taking punishment", it means what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you get hit, and "take punishment" it generally means you're either not moving or moving too slowly to get off the line of attack or outside the range.

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#235835 - 03/07/06 03:39 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
This sure has turned into a big topic...
Where's those ratings at?!?!?

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#235836 - 03/07/06 04:12 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Quote by Eyrie
Quote:

So, if you're "taking punishment", it means what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you get hit, and "take punishment" it generally means you're either not moving or moving too slowly to get off the line of attack or outside the range.




Eyrie if you ever stepped in the ring you are going to get hit. I trained at the same boxing gym as Floyd Mayweather Jr(undefeated), he would get hit. Ali with all his speed would get hit. Does that mean they were slow or couldn't get out of the way?. Your statement just shows the ignorance about conditioning. Your not always going to get out of the way of a attack. So why not be prepared by being properly conditioned. Conditioning does not make one slow.

Kevin


Edited by Taison (03/08/06 02:53 AM)

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#235837 - 03/08/06 03:17 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

So, if you're "taking punishment", it means what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you get hit, and "take punishment" it generally means you're either not moving or moving too slowly to get off the line of attack or outside the range.




Kickboxer I have to tell you my biggest frustration. The ropes. I really hate them, the reason? It blocks my way when I try to dodge backwards. In the ring, moving away isn't much of an option, thus if you don't posses good parrying/blocking skill, you won't have much of a career as a ring-fighter.

As a kickboxer, it is one of my strategies to take and give more than was given. Many times "baiting" is needed to lure the opponent's attack. Sometime I will move into range and let them kick me so that I can go for the clinch, that is why conditioning is sometimes important.

Sometimes, one can win by solely blocking with their conditioned legs. If the opponent don't possess good conditioned legs, the blocker will tire out the aggressor.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235838 - 03/08/06 08:34 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: pathfinder7195]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Sorry, Kevin, is name dropping supposed to mean something to me? I'm afraid I was boxing way long before what's-his-face you name dropped, so I'm not sure if that's supposed to mean anything significant to me.

I might be ignorant... perhaps.... but you're taking my statement out of context and twisting it to suit your argument.

I'd like to see how well you can condition your face though...

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#235839 - 03/08/06 07:49 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S

I'd like to see how well you can condition your face though

Eyrie, my nose has been broken several times, this face conditioning thing I have given up on. Although I think my looks have improved because of it.

Mayweather is considered one of the fastest boxers ever. I think he is the wealterweight champ. He keeps jumping up in weight classes. His dad was also a pro boxer(Floyd Mayweather) pretty good in his day as well.

Kevin

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#235840 - 03/09/06 01:08 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: pathfinder7195]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Oy, guys, keep it friendly. This discussion is getting abit, Muay Thai'ish, in other words, aggressive.

As for Eyrie, I understand your posts quite well, but maybe you could re-phrase it so Mr.Kevin here can understand? I don't know, just working on some solution.

As for Kevin, please don't go around calling people ignorant. It's not a rule or anything, it's called manners and compassion for fellow human beings. Eyrie is entitled to his own opinion, and we can't shove it down his throat. Either he accepts it, or don't.

As for Mayweither, both of them, they are considered one of the best boxers that has existed. Damn they're fast.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#235841 - 03/09/06 07:30 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well Taison, if you understand what I'm saying then, I mustn't be all that ignorant then... LOL.

OK, let me rephrase in simple terms, since it wasn't clear the first time. Conditioning to me means developing the body to operate at a higher level of (energy consumption and power generation) efficiency and performance. The primary purpose and direct benefit is overall health and well-being. The side effect is being able to take beating.

Your (Kevin) arguments lend weight to being able to take a beating (punishment) and outlast (going a few rounds with) the other guy, primarily. Same word, different definition. I'm not saying you're wrong. But you pushing your viewpoint on me, by pointing at my "ignorance" is lost on me.

Besides, I believe the topic is conditioning specific striking surfaces of the body to dish out punishment. I don't believe in that either. There's better and more sophisticated ways to do the same thing without disfigurement.

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#235842 - 03/09/06 11:55 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Well, shin conditioning for building up tolerance to pain from recieving and administering impact to another persons boney areas must be seen as a part of training if you are planning to compete in a discipline that requires it. Wouldnt be much point in hoping around making 'ouchey' noises after throwing your first kick would there?

Having said that, pain is a natural safety device designed to prevent some actions and the resultant harm they will cause. Anyone remember that clip of the guy's lower leg snapping upon kicking Lloyd Van Dames's leg a few years back? I would bet a days pay that the fighter whos leg developed that 'extra joint' had been experiencing problems with his leg for months prior to the fight, but had just worked through it till the structure was weakened to that point.

If you want to promote strong bones, then proper diet and a combination of regulated high impact exercise (running/skipping), and heavy resistance training (weights), is by far the best way to go about it. Whacking trees and such like may be good for the machismo and pain management, but will damage cause damage long term in the majority of cases.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#235843 - 03/09/06 08:32 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: Taison]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Not a problem Taison. Sorry if I offeneded you Eyrie. I wish you guys the best in your training. I don't fight in the ring anymore and mainly do MA for health.

Kevin

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#235844 - 03/09/06 11:44 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: pathfinder7195]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Kevin, none given, none taken.

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#235845 - 03/14/06 07:55 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I think you condition what you can, and depend on skill to protect the rest. I don't know any eye-toughening exercises, or groin-toughening exercises, but I've had some aggressors to "draw back a nub" from trying to hit me there.

While there are exercises to tone most areas of the body, there are some places that you just have to defend completely against attack. I never trained to take a beating, but the flip side of my training would allow me to if necessary because I was in shape.

Years ago, I did a lot of contact fighting, and I still didn't take a beating. I did deliver some though, and I had more people quit from my blocking their attacks than from me attacking them. Using a good level of "punching irimi", you can beat the soup out of somebody with the simple philosophy that "if you stick it out, I'll hit it"... arms, legs, head... whatever you put out there, I'll punch it.

If that doesn't do anything else, it makes you punch and block quickly... if you leave it out there... it gets hit.

One of the tenants of that also is to keep hitting the same place every chance you get. I don't know anybody or any part of the body that can take continual shots on the same place and not end up losing the capacity to use whatever that place is... be it shin, elbow, forearm, or trunk of the body. Keep on hitting the same place with power... everything breaks with time.

The old Okinawan tournaments I was in were a perpetual kicking of the siatic nerve until someone couldn't use their legs, and then you could attack "in close" without danger of getting kicked.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#235846 - 03/14/06 08:31 PM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I think Cord said it best. If the training regime requires it, then do it.

Personally, I don't and have never had/felt the need to. I have on many occasions merely "tapped" someone in the right places (often repeatedly, from different angles, and in full flight) to stun or deaden the appendage (temporarily, of course). Or punched them lightly and have them drop instantly. Or even tapped them in places, in a specific sequence, to make them sick and want to throw up.

It's good fun when you can do it, but it does take a long time to develop that sort of ability without external conditioning methods (such as those requiring the use of dit-ta-jow). (OK, maybe that's not a lot of fun for the other person, when they get sick and feel like up chucking).

Don't mean to sound all Obi-wan-Kenobi like... but it's far more interesting for me working on the "energetic" level than external conditioning - for the very reasons you mention - you can't condition every part of your body, and even so, it's still susceptible to breaks from the continued abuse. However, I feel it's far easier to affect someone's energy levels than try to "block" a "conditioned" impacting surface.

When I look at the elderly gentleman, world-reknown, ex-MT fighter, running the kickboxing class next to mine, he's pretty much crippled, but no doubt can still do what he does, albeit not at any sort of competitive level. I just don't want to end up that way when I get to his age... thanks.

But if the training regime requires it, then I guess you have to do it. I'm merely questioning the long term utility of such methods.

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#235847 - 03/15/06 01:23 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I agree wholeheartedly. A little "love tap" on the right meridian and you can watch them pull up and start puking or go "night night". A well placed tap beats a badly placed beating every time.

We all learn through doing, and the Okinawan tournaments taught me that I didn't like having my siatic nerve kicked repeatedly. Training, conditioning, or whatever, it still hurt like hell, so I learned other ways to handle the problem. I guess that's called "motivation".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#235848 - 03/15/06 04:24 AM Re: Why do you condition you shins/forearms? [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I tend to be a quick learner...too

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