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#235498 - 10/30/06 03:49 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

At the beginning of this discussion, you asked me why I beleived aikido is ineffective as a fighting art. I responded with my reasons. You dismissed my reasons out of hand and demanded "REAL" evidence. I asked what would constitute REAL evidence. You refused to give a specific answer. Frustrated, I asked you to explain why you thought aikido WAS effective. And now you tell me I am "not going to get out of it so easy."



I will say this, however: if your physical aikido is anywhere near as slippery as your rhetorical aikido, you must be the deadliest man alive.

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#235499 - 10/30/06 08:17 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
*sigh* your debating technique stinks.

I rebutted your argument above. I pointed out your flawed logic. The burden of proof is still on you.

Here's why. This is the entire basis of your argument:
#15893436
Quote:

Why?
Because judo works and aikido doesn't.

Why and how is it better?
See above.

Better for what?
Self-defense, physical fitness, and self-confidence.





and

Quote:

Judo practioners train under intense, realistic conditions and engage actively resisting opponents as a regular part of their training. Aikido practioners do none of these things. Is there an aikido practioners somewhere who is a great fighter? Possibly. But given a choice, I would pick the art with deeper roots in the real world.





I don't see any evidence or any logical argument here. There is no evidence or nexus that "...intense, realistic conditions,... [engaging in active] resistance..." results in a "better" fighter. Nor is there any causal relationship between such training modalities and said "results". As for your comment regarding "deeper roots in the real world", that's just plain ignorant.

Your argument is full of sweeping generalizations, non-sequiters, and ad hominems. You have demonstrated that you have no personal knowledge or experience in the art, except by way of contact with a few aikido practitioners whom you have bested in contest. I have already rebutted that as well here: http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...80#Post15894453

In addition, since you have no prior experience of aikido, how do you know that aikido does not engage in actively resisting opponents and practice under intense, realistic conditions? Having 3 people armed with jo and bokken, trying to hit you in randori is not "realistic and intense"? Having 2 people hang off each arm, and one trying to choke you is not "active resistance"?

If you can't get past the ignorant generalizations, personal insults and argue with me logically, then I see no reason to continue this debate. This thread is so far off topic now and I agree with aikiuke - it's time of this thread to .

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#235500 - 10/30/06 09:20 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: wristtwister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Judo definitely.



-John

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#235501 - 10/30/06 11:19 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
"There is no evidence or nexus that "...intense, realistic conditions,... [engaging in active] resistance..." results in a "better" fighter."

Tell you what, Eyrie. Find me 5 people on this board who are willing to defend the above statement, and I will beleive anything you say.

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#235502 - 10/30/06 11:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I seriously doubt that you would believe anything I say...

Ignorance is the wet-nurse of prejudice.

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#235503 - 10/31/06 08:51 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

No, I do not consider Aikijutsu ineffective. But Aikijutsu, despite sharing roots with aikido is a very different animal.



Sharing roots? Aikijutsu is the parent art of modern day Aikido, which was created after World War II. IMHO, Aikido can be thought of as the transition from a deadly combat art [Akijutsu] to a more gentle self-defense art. This may be an oversimplification. Yet, Akido was definitely derived from Akijutsu. Therefore, it stands to reason that if one wanted to study a more combat oriented Akido, they need not look any further than Akijutsu.

BTW, I studied Judo many years ago with an emphasis on more of a combat art than as sport. Nevertheless, the original intention of Judo was more as a sport.

_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#235504 - 10/31/06 10:20 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: SouthernTiger]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
You are right, SouthernTiger. "Sharing roots" was a poor way of putting it.

I have trained with only one aikijutsu practioner, as supposed to several aikido practioners. I found aikijutsu practioner impressive; at one point, she cupped my heel in her hand and dumped me on my butt!

By contrast, the aikido practioners I trained with all acted like knife-fighters at a shootout.

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#235505 - 10/31/06 12:28 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

There is no evidence or nexus that "...intense, realistic conditions,... [engaging in active] resistance..." results in a "better" fighter. Nor is there any causal relationship between such training modalities and said "results".




I'm afraid Eyrie that's just not true. Although I do not know of any specifically martial arts studies, there have been a number of studies into the relationship between arousal levels and sporting performance. Here is just one article which mentions a study linking mental toughness under stressful conditions to higher performance.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-psychology.html

I have seen other studies even more specific to the question, but I can't find them right now.

I personally think that fileboy is perfectly entitled to bring up resistance training as a point in his argument. You could have responded that if an Aikidoka trains effectively then he will be just as effective as a effective training judoka. You did not. That leads me to believe that you think that low or no resistance training is effective as a replacement for high resistance training. It is better to say that low intensity training has its place, but without high intensity training it will not produce good results.

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#235506 - 10/31/06 09:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I'm afraid Eyrie that's just not true. Although I do not know of any specifically martial arts studies, there have been a number of studies into the relationship between arousal levels and sporting performance. Here is just one article which mentions a study linking mental toughness under stressful conditions to higher performance.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-psychology.html





Well, the article is talking about "mental toughness" and its relation to sport performance. If you're talking about "intensity" as in level of physical exertion, as one of the parameters in the Hull study, then perhaps. But I don't think that's what being implied in fileboy's argument.

Quote:


I have seen other studies even more specific to the question, but I can't find them right now.




Do....please.

Quote:


I personally think that fileboy is perfectly entitled to bring up resistance training as a point in his argument.




Of course he is. But I don't have to agree with it. Which is precisely why I'm questioning it. I'm suggesting that if he doesn't understand the training paradigm in aikido, then he is not in a position to argue its merits or otherwise.

Quote:

You could have responded that if an Aikidoka trains effectively then he will be just as effective as a effective training judoka. You did not.




Define "training effectively". What does that mean? Does it even consider that the training goals may not even be the same?

Quote:


That leads me to believe that you think that low or no resistance training is effective as a replacement for high resistance training.




Well, NO. You're way off base. How did you make that connection???? I'm not debating that low or no intensity training is an effective replacement for high resistance training. I'm debating fileboy's assertion that high resistance training = more effective art. I want to know how he made the logic leap and arrived at that conclusion, when there are no studies to back that up.

That's WAY different to saying high resistance training = better performer. Better training method => better performer I can accept. But to make the leap from better performer = better art is a non-sequiter.

Quote:

It is better to say that low intensity training has its place, but without high intensity training it will not produce good results.




Well, NO. That's possibly a factor, but that has yet to be established by documented research. It also discounts other factors such as strategy, and creativity. An athlete might be better conditioned through "high-intensity" practice, but there are many ways of achieving the same thing. Shugyo (austere training) comes in many forms. Some more subtle than others.

So far, I have heard nothing but ignorant conjecture. When you have something more quantifiable or even qualitative in the way of any sort of established research analysis, I'll wade in.

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#235507 - 11/30/06 11:51 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
If you want to compete, hurt people, get hurt yourself, feel powerful and important, feel angry and frustrated, win trophies, lose matches, etc; then Judo, or just about any other MA is the one for you. Hope this helps - truly. -Belvy

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