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#235448 - 03/01/06 05:46 PM Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one)
honourah Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 2
I really wanna no witch ones better because I quite jujitsu so I can focus on a martial art more focus on grappling and arm locks

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#235449 - 03/01/06 06:02 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
TwistingKick Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 194
Loc: UK (oxford)
better for what??
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#235450 - 03/01/06 06:04 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Uh, yes, better for what?

Doesn't jujitsu already have "grappling and armlocks"?

Maybe you should just stick with jujitsu?

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#235451 - 03/01/06 06:05 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
TwistingKick Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 194
Loc: UK (oxford)
too late, he already "quite"


Edited by TwistingKick (03/01/06 06:06 PM)
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#235452 - 03/07/06 11:38 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: TwistingKick]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
What's wrong with doing both? We have aikido class followed with judo class. Seems like the best answer to me.

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#235453 - 03/09/06 01:36 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Aikido!

No...Judo!!

NO..AIKIDO!!

NO!! AGGHHH!!!!

poop...
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Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#235454 - 03/10/06 08:30 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
Judo is a modified sport version of Jujitsu, quitting Jujitsu to do Judo becuase you want something different is just plain loopy
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#235455 - 03/15/06 02:58 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: Ayub]
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
I think he should take up whichever art it is that lets you focus your chi into a ball of energy and fire it. You know, the one Ryu and Ken studied.

Ha-DOO-Ken!
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#235456 - 03/15/06 04:14 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Here is your first real answer. Practice Judo, more grappling involved and much easier to learn and more applicable. However, judo mainly concentrateds on sweeps and throws, but there is grappling involved, not sure how much ground grappling.
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#235457 - 03/15/06 09:19 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: TeK9]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
If I was advising someone on what martial art to start training in, it would probably be judo. The balance skills of judo translate into any skills you do afterward.

If you're into ground work, there's plenty of that in judo as well, and the techniques are very adaptable to self defense or other arts. I personally always enjoyed judo training and found everything in it to be easily researched and there is plenty of documentation around about how to do techniques correctly without depending on everybody else's opinion. They either work or they don't. If they don't, you get to stand back up and start over.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#235458 - 03/15/06 11:04 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
I wanna add a write-in vote for wrestling!
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#235459 - 03/15/06 10:00 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Quote:

I really wanna no witch ones better because I quite jujitsu so I can focus on a martial art more focus on grappling and arm locks




Rickson by armbar.

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#235460 - 05/08/06 10:31 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
JadedDragon Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 2
Loc: US, North Carolina
I may be unqualified to answer this, but Aikido's arm bars and joint lokcs are almost all done in an upright position where you are not entangled with your opponent. This is done under the pretense that there is more than one attacker and that paying too much attention to one person may leave an opportunity for others to attack you. Jujitsu is much more ground based locks and chokes. I have noticed that Aikido locks seem to take more finesse while you can sort of dog it through Jujitsu. And yes, quiting Jujitsu to learn judo does seem redundant.

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#235461 - 05/09/06 03:06 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Most judo dojo's now practice with the sport in mind, so you go for point scoring rather than practical application. In reality, personally I would not like to go to the ground and get tangled up with any attacker. I also believe weight and strength is an advantage in judo whereas aikido they really play no part. Although I said judo seems to be more sport orientated, I do believe you can still apply it practically. The balance taking technique's are excellent and to carry out these techniques especially on someone who doesn't practice judo, it is very easy to cause them to lose balance and fall.

I'm not going to say which is better because I think both arts are amazing. If you want to focus more on grappling and arm locks, why did you quit jujitsu? If the dojo you currently go to train doesn't incorporate these elements maybe you should try another dojo in your area. Furthermore you will not learn grappling in aikido. We throw our attacker and then look for the opportunity to escape, to get away from the attack.

PS. How long have you been studying jujitsu?
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Chanters

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#235462 - 05/11/06 08:11 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: Chanters]
bin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 169
Loc: NJ, USA
I don't mean to be an ass but this is my honest opinion. A lot of Aikido seems to be unrealistic. *braces for ultra-flaming* Let me explain why:

1. Am I suggesting Hapkido is bad too? No. Hapkido has what Aikido lacks. Hapkido has a comprehensive striking program as well as low kicks, sweeps, and takedowns. Aikido does none of these.

2. Aikido's "circle of energy" thingie or whatever the theory used to throw people with a flick of a wrist can be applicable but at times seems to be farfetched. Aikido's "circles" are too large. Smaller circles such as the ones found in Aikido's predecessor, Aikijujitsu or even Hapkido are more practical.

3. This is just me but I always picture Aikidokas as these peaceful people. Is there anything wrong with peaceful people? Quite the contrary.. But reality is that in a fight, aggression is key. Aikido seems to be lacking in the aggressive offensive attacks department.


me if you wish..

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#235463 - 05/12/06 02:50 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: bin]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

Aikido's "circles" are too large. Smaller circles such as the ones found in Aikido's predecessor




Quote:

Aikido seems to be lacking in the aggressive offensive attacks department.




It is apparent with the comments you have written, that you lack any knowledge and experience in aikido.
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Chanters

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#235464 - 05/12/06 03:16 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: bin]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
You are right Bin, a lot of aikido, and a lot of other MA for that matter are unrealistic. Now, let's forget about the a lot (en masse) of useless crap and focus on the not so a lot aikido which is more realistic.

The big circular thingy is over-rated, it is the form to teach new students the feeling of blending with the attacker. Attacker does not wish to blend? Fine, we SHOMEN-ATE the guy.

Aikido are peaceful people? Of course we are, why do you make it sound like it is a bad thing to have?

In a fight, is aggression the key to victory? Perhaps it is, but remember passivity is also a weapon too... Gandhi showed the world how his passive resistant ideas brought the British Overlords to their knees.

Well, I am in opinion, that in a fight, a controlled emotion, i.e., one which is not aggressive nor passive is the best. When you are clouded by emotion, you cannot make the split decision needed to win.

Oh BTW, if we want to be offensive, we get our little stick known as jo.

Xwf
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#235465 - 05/12/06 04:20 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: xuzen_628]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
I think that it will rely only in personīs tastes.

For example.From my own bio. I was the worst Judoka of my team for years. I just couldnīt understand this system. I was pretty bad. I was very thin and in the kind of sport - Judo we were making, strenght wss the key factor to win, So I was usually defeated by stronger guys UNTIL..

the day I started to do Aikido and Ju Jutsu. Suddenly I was (surprisingly to myself and for my friends)... good at this And AFTER knowing Aikido and having a Black belt in both Aikido and Ju Jutsu, it has been always very pleasant and funny for me to make Judo. I like it a lot NOW. Because Aikido helped me to understand from Judo what I couldnīt understand while being a pure Sport Judoka.

The opposite case: my son. He is 7 and I have always been interested in teaching him how to defend himself. I made him to take Karate clases. No interest. Bullied.

He took Ju Jitsu and Aikido clases. No interest. Bullied.

He took TKD classes. 0 interest. really bullied LOL.

He took Self Defense lessons (Dirty Fighting techniques). He became a little devil with adults, but he didnīt want to fight in school because he donīt want to injure other kids. Result: bullied.

Finally, dispaired, I made him, to take Judo (with not too much hope) and VOILÁ!

Self Esteem in heaven; ''Dad, now I do know WHAT I REALLY LIKE'', stopped the bullies with their ases kicked, etc. He found WHAT he likes, and he likes Judo, no Aikido.

Is Judo then best for kids? I donīt think so.

Which is better at the end? The one who suits YOU. Which one you like more? This is the best FOR YOU.

Is my opinion. OK?
Dud

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#235466 - 05/22/06 06:05 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: dud]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
i dunno Ju-jutsu has a pretty good amount of grappling and tons of armlocks. Though most of its done on the ground. I mean if you want a more stand up then Aikido and Judo would help more. Though Ju-do is very similar to Ju-Jutsu except it being less brutal and alot of gentle. Aikido is also on the soft side, its kinda like Japanese Taichi, though I dont want to lable it like that. Its a soft art which emphasizes using the opponents strength to your advantage. Judo follows the same idea but its definitely more "hard" than Aikido.

Anyhow, honestly I think you should stick with Ju-jutsu because grappling and armbars are too common of a thing between these 3 arts and in my opinion Ju-jutsu would contain the most grappling.

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#235467 - 05/22/06 08:51 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: IExcalibui2]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I started out in Judo and Karate at the same time, and loved both of them. As I trained further, I kept up with them both, and finally was introduced to jujutsu, which I also loved. Twenty years passed, and I met someone who was actually trained by one of Ueshiba's ukes, so I started Aikido, and I love it as well, after training in it for 20 years.

I don't know if there's an "art for children" in any of what I've trained in, but I think that Judo offers children a chance to learn some good body mechanics skills that help them with balance in everything else they do. I trained both my sons until they were teenagers, but neither of them had the "burning desire" to do martial arts, so they've dropped out and stopped training.

If somebody's not interested in what they're doing, it doesn't matter if you're dipping them in gold... they won't see the value in it. Fortunately, I liked it all... and every time I started something new, it just reinforced what I already knew and gave me more inspiration to go further.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#235468 - 10/21/06 02:23 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: honourah]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Judo.

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#235469 - 10/21/06 03:29 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Why? Why and how is it better? Better for what?

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#235470 - 10/21/06 06:20 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Why?
Because judo works and aikido doesn't.

Why and how is it better?
See above.

Better for what?
Self-defense, physical fitness, and self-confidence.

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#235471 - 10/21/06 07:27 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Interesting... sweeping generalization. Got any evidence?

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#235472 - 10/21/06 07:36 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Judo practioners train under intense, realistic conditions and engage actively resisting opponents as a regular part of their training. Aikido practioners do none of these things. Is there an aikido practioners somewhere who is a great fighter? Possibly. But given a choice, I would pick the art with deeper roots in the real world.

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#235473 - 10/21/06 08:37 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmmm, great Aikido "fighters"... Mochizuki, Shioda, Tohei, and the big Kahuna himself, Morihei Ueshiba.... to name a few. Shioda, Tohei and Ueshiba had a few challengers from other MAs, "test their skills", and dispatched them with ease.

Even Jigoro Kano, the Founder of JUDO, considered Ueshiba's Aikido as HIS (Kano's) ideal budo, and invited Ueshiba to the Kodokan to teach. Ueshiba politely refused as he felt that Aikido and Judo were different and incompatible. Hence, Kano dispatched 3 of his top students - Mochizuki, Murashige and Tomiki - to study with Ueshiba.

Instead of making unfounded anecdotal claims, perhaps you could enlighten us on your own personal experience of Aikido - i.e. are you speaking from personal experience of Aikido? And if so, how many years experience in Aikido do you have?

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#235474 - 10/21/06 09:47 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
eyrie,

Wouldn't relating my personal experiences be the same thing as making anecdotal claims?

But seriously: every person you named--Mochizuki, Shioda, Tohei, and even Ueshiba--had extensive training in martial arts other than aikido, particularly (you guessed it!) Judo. Mochizuka was skilled in judo and karate; Shioda was skilled at Judo and Kendo; Tohei studied judo; Ueshiba had many years experience in juijutsu. The bottom line: if these men were indeed "great fighters," they were likely great because they were skilled in martial arts other than aikido. Can you name a single "great fighter" to study nothing but aikido?

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#235475 - 10/21/06 10:19 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Interestingly enough, Kano though enough of Aikido to send one of his top students (Tomiki) to study with Ueshiba. FWIW.

www.tomiki.org
_________________________
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#235476 - 10/21/06 10:31 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: MattJ]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
MattJ,

Indeed he did. His "top students" were, of course, his top JUDO students.

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#235477 - 10/21/06 10:52 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I do not understand your point. That is what I just said.
_________________________
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#235478 - 10/21/06 11:10 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
IOW, you have no personal experience to speak of?

The assertion that a singularly skilled "fighter" in Aikido proves your claim is non-sequiter. The corollary to that argument is, does a singularly skilled fighter exist in any one art?

Yes, they were all skilled in other martial arts, but why did they end up teaching Aikido and not some other martial art, if Aikido is "ineffective" and not "real world" based?

Besides, Ueshiba did not have "many years" training in jujitsu (or any other art for that matter). If anything, his training over his entire lifetime was at best sporadic.

So I'm still not clear how you can definitively assert that judo is better? On what basis?

It's kinda like saying TKD sux stagnant pond water without having done TKD. When it should be more like, that person's understanding of [insert MA] is somewhat lacking, rather than [insert MA] sux.

Otherwise, such comments invariably end up as "one art is better than another" flamebait...





Edited by eyrie (10/21/06 11:26 PM)

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#235479 - 10/21/06 11:23 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
I think what fileboy is trying to get at is that before the students were dispatched to the aikido schools they all had a solid foundation in Judo, so when at the aikido they could have possibly applied a lot of their knowledge of judo to aikido.

I'm not saying anything against Aikido though, just trying to clarify what I think fileboy was trying to get across. I actually think Aikido looks like a pretty effective art against multiple attackers.

Out of the three : Judo, Jujutsu, and Aikido I would personally go with Jujutsu because it was bred on the battlefield for the battlefield although some of it may be technical wish-wash you find that in most arts, and the stuff that "works" you know works because the feudal warriors of Japan ( samurai ) used it and they seemed to fair quite well with it.

That is just my opinion though, and as I am attracted to the brutality of Jujutsu it makes my opinion Bias. I did study Judo for a short period, and it was a very fun art. In my class we did do a lot of chokes, and armbars but they were all on the ground ( which I didn't like to much but you may )

As for Aikido I don't know much about it, but in 2 months or so a man from Serbia is coming to work with my father he is supposedly very well versed in Aikido & aikiijutsu, and I may be getting personaly instruction from him ( should be good to from what the other Serbians at my fathers work say Serbia is a warzone, and well... the guys still kicken so he must know somethin.)

good luck with whatever choice you make.
_________________________
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#235480 - 10/21/06 11:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
eyriw,

I have no ideas what "IOW" means, but I will assume you are asking about my "personal experience" with aikido. From the way you phrased it earlier, I take it you feel only aikido practioners are qualified to weigh in on aikido's effectiveness. That is convenient, as it disqualifies aikido's critics automatically.

But since you asked I have 23 years experience in TKD and 10 in Judo. I have practiced with aikido stylists from Illinois, Texas, California, New York, and even Mexico. Not one was able to hold his own against me nor any other martial artist I travelled with. Not one. I consciously sought out aikido practioners because those who could not effectively defend themselves all assured me that "somewhere" I would find "real" aikido master who would make short work of me. I am still looking.

I explained already what my basis for asserting Judo's superiority is:

"Judo practioners train under intense, realistic conditions and engage actively resisting opponents as a regular part of their training. Aikido practioners do none of these things."

I suspect I could say this a hundred times in a hundred different ways and you might still not hear it. Aikido is less a martial art than a martial religion, and its longtime practioners are True Believers. They can no more be convinced of aikido's flaws than the Pope could stop being Catholic.

Does a singularly skilled fighter exist in any one art? Absolutely. Many skilled fighters have studied karate, boxing, judo, etc., and nothing else. But my point was that the "great fighters" you named all came to aikido as adults after extensive experience with other (read: real) martial arts. Thus, it was likely that they came to aikido as skilled fighters; aikido did not make them so.

As far as Ueshiba is concerned, here is something he once said about his MA journey:

"Suddenly, the ground began shaking. A golden vapor wafted up from the ground and enveloped me. I was transformed into a golden image, and my body felt as light as a feather."

Forgive me if I regard this man as more New Age mystic than martial artist.

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#235481 - 10/22/06 12:15 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
IOW = In Other Words

Interesting to note that "Japanese" is not in the veritable list...

I am in no way suggesting that only aikido practitioners are qualified to critique the effectiveness of aikido, but some personal experience goes some way toward clarifying the position you are taking.

Whilst I agree that some aikido practitioners might regard the art as more a philosophical and spiritual practice, I would also suggest that the ones that can't defend themselves out of a wet paper bag are the same ones that subscribe to the peace, love and harmony New Age mysticism.

But, it still doesn't answer the question, if aikido is ineffective compared to judo, why did Kano say what he said about aikido being his ideal budo? Why did he send his top students to learn from Ueshiba? Why did they then turn around to teach aikido and not judo?

The man may have been a mystic shaman, but he must obviously have had some skill, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to learn something from him and made it their own. Wouldn't you agree?

Training in a specific modality is one thing, just as you suggest that training in an alive, realistic scenario is another. However, to say that such difference makes one better or more effective over another is naive at best, and displays an overwhelming lack of appreciation of the deeper aspects of the arts. And certainly, what is shown publicly is usually not the perception of "reality". Perhaps the aikido stylists you went up against weren't shown the "real" stuff?

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#235482 - 10/22/06 09:18 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
Honourah,

I just thought of a reason not to take aikido, and take judo or jujutsu. From what I have heard Aikido is an art that takes a very long time to become proficient enough to defend yourself with. If you are looking for self-defense Aikido might be good in the long run, but Judo, or Jujutsu would be good if your looking for something you will be comfortable to use within a year or two ( not saying youd be accomplished, but a few techniques should feel natural by then )

From what I have heard Aikido can take 5 or 6 years just to feel comfortable using the techniques in a self-defense situation ( although this depends on your aptitude for an art)

I could also be completely wrong; I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.
_________________________
"Using a spoon to row a boat is clearly the act of an idiot." Cord

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#235483 - 10/22/06 10:06 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: kyokushinkai]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
An excellent point, and a good reason not to.

As it is currently taught in most mainstream styles, I would have to agree that anywhere from 5-8 years on average, is required to reach a basic level of competency. However, if the necessary body skills are taught up front correctly, I would say 2-4 years depending. AFAIK, few in mainstream Aikido teach proper body (taiho) skills - the very same (if not similar!) body skills found in many other martial arts.

After all, few people are likely to invest in boring old BASICS, when they want to be able to do the cool [insert fav. MA actor] moves up front, without all the necessary body skills that the basics provide.

Obviously, the more experienced one is in dealing with certain types of situations, the better one gets at dealing with similar types of situations. This generally applies to a wide range of things.

But then, MA is a lifelong pursuit... it's not something that you do in 3 years, 3 months, 3 weeks or even 3 days and then unrealistically believe you have the skillz to beat someone's a$$.

Irrespective of which art you choose, it should (ought to?) be something that changes the way you move and respond, and invariably, it changes who you become - everyday - i.e. you HAVE TO do this every day, every moment for the rest of your life.

So doing something is better than no training at all.

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#235484 - 10/23/06 01:45 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:

Perhaps the aikido stylists you went up against weren't shown the "real" stuff?




This statement plays to the most threadbare cliche in all of martial arts, which I call The Myth of Secret Knowledge. The myth runs like this: sure, all the of practioners of art X you are actually likely to run into couldn't fight off a pack of angry poodles. However, somewhere (preferably on some remote mountaintop or faraway tropical island) are the "real masters." The guys know the "real" art, understand its deepest secrets, and can quickly reduce anyone to a crimson stain on the wall.

Right.

BTW, this myth is by no means limited to aikido. I once asked to train--not fight, mind you, just train--with a kung fu stylist in Chicago. He told me his instructor had forbidden his students to train with anyone outside their kwoon (gym). The reason? The art in question was supposedly so deadly that its secrets had to be prevented from falling into the wrong hands!

God help us.

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#235485 - 10/23/06 07:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, it is a secret if you don't know...

So, what you're saying is that the Myth doesn't apply to Judo? Well, it's the same thing when Kano reorganized Kito-ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu to formulate Judo and promoted the myth that Judo was superior to jujitsu, by way of contest.

If Judo was so superior, why did he use ring-ins like Shiro Saigo, an Aizu clansman (who would have studied the Aizu battlefield arts, like, hey, aikijujitsu!) to win bouts?

Even so, the myth of Judo's superiority was crushed when it suffered defeat against the Kosen-ryu in 1900.

I'm not saying that any one particular art has "th3 s3cr3t d34aly" knowledge. I'm merely suggesting that perhaps some are not privy to the "inner knowledge", whether that be thru being accepted into the "inner circle", or thru self-realization as Kano (or Ueshiba and many others) did.

The issue is not whether an Art is effective or not. It's whether the person's interpretation and understanding of what the Art offers is effective. On any given day, one person might be better (or luckier) on that day, at that precise moment, than another.

BTW, I'm merely having an intellectual debate with you. I'm not taking personal stabs at anyone. Just in case you hadn't realized.... I have no personal stake in Aikido - it's just my preferred way of practice. There's good and bad in most Aikido, just as there is in everything else.

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#235486 - 10/25/06 07:22 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Eyrie,

I am curious to know what kind of evidence would you accept as demonstrating aikido's limited effectiveness?





To be blunt, I'm not interested in any evidence that you can prove of aikido's (or any other martial art's) effectiveness or otherwise. Likewise, I am not interested in convincing you (or anyone for that matter) of aikido's (or any other martial art's) effectiveness or otherwise.

Besides, the forum rules specifically prohibit any debate regarding the effectiveness or superiority of art X vs art Y. At this point, I am only debating your claims regarding Judo's effectiveness compared to Aikido. Subtle difference, but distinct from an X vs Y debate nonetheless.

Anyone with any standing here on this forum will tell you it's not the art that's defective, but the person applying the knowledge of the art. But we already know your stance on the matter. Which is rather contradictory, given your stance on the Myth of Secret Knowledge in the Arts, yet, here you claim that one Art is better (superior or more effective) than another, thereby implying that one Art is privy to certain knowledge (secret or otherwise) that makes it so. Like I said, it's only a "secret" if you don't "know".

I will agree, however, that there are many ineffectual aikido practitioners out there, and I will agree that most aikido is a shadow of its former glorious past. I will also agree that there are few in the current generation of aikido teachers that have reached the level of skill of such people as Tohei, Shioda, Tamura, Shirata, Yamaguchi, Saito, Yamada, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Abe and others, none of which presumably reached the level of Ueshiba himself, but are skilled nonetheless, in their own right.

I am talking about attaining a level of skill such that you cannot be pushed over, locks don't work on you, strikes bounce off you, or disappear into emptiness. It's attaining a level of skill to be like an empty jacket, or immovable as the mountains. It's not esoteric airy fairy BS, it's out there, and there are a few who can do this and do it well. Not just in aikido, but in many other internal martial arts.

You could substitute the word aikido in the preceeding with any other martial art you like, but the fact remains that these body skills are the foundation of jujitsu, judo, aikido, taiji, xingyi, bagua, and yes, even karate.

If you wish to continue this debate, then by all means, show me some evidence other than the flawed logic that:
1. person A doing art X vs person B doing art Y engage in physical contest
2. person A wins
3. therefore art X is more effective

Understand that I am only questioning the logic of your argument.

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#235487 - 10/26/06 01:20 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Sorry--I seem to have really hit a nerve here.

Your response clarfies things: no evidence of any kind would influence your thinking one bit.

happy aikidoing.

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#235488 - 10/26/06 08:12 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
On the contrary, I am rather enjoying this debate. In fact, I anticipate with baited breath for you to show me some REAL evidence, and I challenge you to do so.

I'm a very open-minded person. Opinionated, perhaps, but open-minded enough to see another's viewpoint.

So far you haven't even got a cogent argument, and I'm still waiting to see if you can forumlate one that will convince me otherwise.

When you're ready to revise your non-sequiter argument and dispense with the ad-hominems, let's debate!

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#235489 - 10/29/06 01:21 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: bin]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I don't mean to be an ass but this is my honest opinion. A lot of Aikido seems to be unrealistic. *braces for ultra-flaming* Let me explain why:

1. Am I suggesting Hapkido is bad too? No. Hapkido has what Aikido lacks. Hapkido has a comprehensive striking program as well as low kicks, sweeps, and takedowns. Aikido does none of these.

2. Aikido's "circle of energy" thingie or whatever the theory used to throw people with a flick of a wrist can be applicable but at times seems to be farfetched. Aikido's "circles" are too large. Smaller circles such as the ones found in Aikido's predecessor, Aikijujitsu or even Hapkido are more practical.

3. This is just me but I always picture Aikidokas as these peaceful people. Is there anything wrong with peaceful people? Quite the contrary.. But reality is that in a fight, aggression is key. Aikido seems to be lacking in the aggressive offensive attacks department.


me if you wish..



Although brief, I like your mention of Aikijujutsu. My write in vote would have to be for AJJ.

Aikijutsu and Jiu Jutsu were the original unarmed combat systems of the Samurai, and are the two of the oldest unarmed combat systems in Japan. Aikijutsu (or Aikijujutsu) is best known as the parent art of modern day Aikido, which was created after World War II.
_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#235490 - 10/29/06 01:16 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie, let me try coming at this another way.

What makes you beleive aikido is an effective martial art?

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#235491 - 10/29/06 06:13 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Interesting debating technique... You're not going to get out of it so easy. You put forward the argument that it is not effective and I have rebutted it. Now you have to rebutt my rebuttal and put forward another compelling argument.

If you've read my bio, you'll know that I have done several different arts. The training method in each of these arts are slightly different, some of the applications are more overt (like jujitsu and arnis), whilst others are moderately discernable (e.g. karate), and some are mostly obscured by the training method (e.g. aikido and taiji).

Each art is unique, but the brutal applications are both visible and hidden in each, to varying extents. To the casual observer, an art practiced as a choreographed dance, might look ineffectual, but to the discerning eye, the devastatingly and deceptively simple martial applications are there for the taking.... providing that one knows what to look for. IMHE, the ones that look like a dance ritual are usually the more devastatingly brutal ones... e.g. silat.

It's a integral part of many East-Asian arts, where "learning to steal technique" is the de rigeur teaching modality. So, what is shown and demonstrated is quite often the omote version - i.e. the surface level technique. It is up to the student to discover the ura of the technique - i.e. what lies hidden just below the surface.

In Japanese culture there is this cultural construct of soto (outside) vs uchi (inside). Unless you are immediate family, or Sensei's golden boy, everyone else is soto - and only insiders are privy to the inner workings of the art.

That is not to say that even though you are an outsider, you would be condemned forever without learning the true art. If you were talented enough, you could probably figure it out yourself. Many have done so quite independently of whatever formal and informal teaching they may have received. This is all part of the "traditional" (and very Zen-like) teaching methods. As I recall, Takeda never showed Ueshiba everything, and likewise, Ueshiba never showed his disciples anything - they all had to work for it.

The sad fact is, many martial artists (not just aikido), are stuck at the outer level stuff - the omote. And because they are not uchi deshi (inner circle disciples), they are never shown the ura - the "real stuff" that makes the techniques work. But every once in while, someone works it out on their own....

So, in answer to your question, what makes me think that aikido is effective? The answer is simple. From all the years of being an outsider, learning to steal technique, I can see the potential of the art and I understand why aikido is practiced the way it is. It is merely a training method for attaining certain body skills - not unlike any other martial art. And from my experience with other martial arts, I can see the parallels, similarities and distinct differences.

In short, it's not the art that's ineffective, but rather the person's relative skill or ability in applying the art. I have sparred with TKD players and karateka, rolled with jujitsuka, pushed hands with taiji players, and duked it out with escrimadors. There's good ones and then there's not so good ones.

But to label an art as ineffective, because the skill level of certain individuals is below your standard, is to ignore the fact that some are simply better than others. Some have better body skills than others, and are better able to utilize them accordingly.

Now it's your turn... you say it's ineffective, now stand by your argument and say why you believe it is so.

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#235492 - 10/29/06 09:42 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< That is not to say that even though you are an outsider, you would be condemned forever without learning the true art. If you were talented enough, you could probably figure it out yourself. >>
Sorry to butt in on a very interesting discussion. This quote would have been great information to me six years ago when I transferred to a "traditional" school. After two years of complete ignorant frustration I gave up trying to learn the "deep" part because I did not know it existed.

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#235493 - 10/29/06 10:20 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Like I said, it's only a "secret" if you don't know. The problem is, no one will tell you what that is. Not because they don't want to... it's because they can't. It's something you have to discover for yourself. The thing about the Truth is that you can't tell someone about the Truth. People will only comprehend the Truth when they realize the Truth. The last time someone spoke of the Truth, they crucified him.

One of the most frustrating things about the "traditional" way is that nobody tells you anything. They wait to see if you can work it out. When sensei ignores you or says "yes, that's good", it usually means, in the most polite fashion, "keep working at it....(coz you stink)". When sensei is harsh and severe, it means you're REALLY getting sensei's attention, and it would be UNFORGIVEABLE to disappoint sensei.

The other issue is that it's not something that can be told to you. It is something that you must personally experience. It is part of your journey. As I said, very Zen-like.

I tell my students a lot of stuff... coz I know that 6-10 years from now, they might suddenly realize what I have been saying all along. And I always show them stuff that is several levels above their current ability, so that they may one day realize that's what they're working towards.

My only advice is don't give up. Keeping training. Keep working the "basics", and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean go deeper into the basics. Look beneath the surface. It's all hidden in plain sight.

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#235494 - 10/29/06 11:18 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Fileboy2002 - Since you seem to be saying Akido is ineffective... Do you think Aikijutsu (or Aikijujutsu) is an ineffective martial art, too?
_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#235495 - 10/29/06 02:51 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: SouthernTiger]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The best way to determine if something works is to get out on the floor and try it. I've had a lot of people who thought what I was teaching was "very basic" until they tried to make it work themselves, and on the other hand, I've had people tell me how complicated something was, and be able to work through it very quickly.

Effectiveness is in the eye of the beholder, and the arguments in jujutsu are usually settled when somebody hits the floor.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#235496 - 10/29/06 05:38 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: wristtwister]
aikiuke Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 144
Loc: Illinois
Can this thread die now?

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#235497 - 10/30/06 03:32 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: SouthernTiger]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
No, I do not consider Aikijutsu ineffective. But Aikijutsu, despite sharing roots with aikido is a very different animal.

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#235498 - 10/30/06 03:49 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

At the beginning of this discussion, you asked me why I beleived aikido is ineffective as a fighting art. I responded with my reasons. You dismissed my reasons out of hand and demanded "REAL" evidence. I asked what would constitute REAL evidence. You refused to give a specific answer. Frustrated, I asked you to explain why you thought aikido WAS effective. And now you tell me I am "not going to get out of it so easy."



I will say this, however: if your physical aikido is anywhere near as slippery as your rhetorical aikido, you must be the deadliest man alive.

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#235499 - 10/30/06 08:17 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
*sigh* your debating technique stinks.

I rebutted your argument above. I pointed out your flawed logic. The burden of proof is still on you.

Here's why. This is the entire basis of your argument:
#15893436
Quote:

Why?
Because judo works and aikido doesn't.

Why and how is it better?
See above.

Better for what?
Self-defense, physical fitness, and self-confidence.





and

Quote:

Judo practioners train under intense, realistic conditions and engage actively resisting opponents as a regular part of their training. Aikido practioners do none of these things. Is there an aikido practioners somewhere who is a great fighter? Possibly. But given a choice, I would pick the art with deeper roots in the real world.





I don't see any evidence or any logical argument here. There is no evidence or nexus that "...intense, realistic conditions,... [engaging in active] resistance..." results in a "better" fighter. Nor is there any causal relationship between such training modalities and said "results". As for your comment regarding "deeper roots in the real world", that's just plain ignorant.

Your argument is full of sweeping generalizations, non-sequiters, and ad hominems. You have demonstrated that you have no personal knowledge or experience in the art, except by way of contact with a few aikido practitioners whom you have bested in contest. I have already rebutted that as well here: http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...80#Post15894453

In addition, since you have no prior experience of aikido, how do you know that aikido does not engage in actively resisting opponents and practice under intense, realistic conditions? Having 3 people armed with jo and bokken, trying to hit you in randori is not "realistic and intense"? Having 2 people hang off each arm, and one trying to choke you is not "active resistance"?

If you can't get past the ignorant generalizations, personal insults and argue with me logically, then I see no reason to continue this debate. This thread is so far off topic now and I agree with aikiuke - it's time of this thread to .

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#235500 - 10/30/06 09:20 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: wristtwister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Judo definitely.



-John

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#235501 - 10/30/06 11:19 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
"There is no evidence or nexus that "...intense, realistic conditions,... [engaging in active] resistance..." results in a "better" fighter."

Tell you what, Eyrie. Find me 5 people on this board who are willing to defend the above statement, and I will beleive anything you say.

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#235502 - 10/30/06 11:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I seriously doubt that you would believe anything I say...

Ignorance is the wet-nurse of prejudice.

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#235503 - 10/31/06 08:51 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

No, I do not consider Aikijutsu ineffective. But Aikijutsu, despite sharing roots with aikido is a very different animal.



Sharing roots? Aikijutsu is the parent art of modern day Aikido, which was created after World War II. IMHO, Aikido can be thought of as the transition from a deadly combat art [Akijutsu] to a more gentle self-defense art. This may be an oversimplification. Yet, Akido was definitely derived from Akijutsu. Therefore, it stands to reason that if one wanted to study a more combat oriented Akido, they need not look any further than Akijutsu.

BTW, I studied Judo many years ago with an emphasis on more of a combat art than as sport. Nevertheless, the original intention of Judo was more as a sport.

_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#235504 - 10/31/06 10:20 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: SouthernTiger]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
You are right, SouthernTiger. "Sharing roots" was a poor way of putting it.

I have trained with only one aikijutsu practioner, as supposed to several aikido practioners. I found aikijutsu practioner impressive; at one point, she cupped my heel in her hand and dumped me on my butt!

By contrast, the aikido practioners I trained with all acted like knife-fighters at a shootout.

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#235505 - 10/31/06 12:28 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

There is no evidence or nexus that "...intense, realistic conditions,... [engaging in active] resistance..." results in a "better" fighter. Nor is there any causal relationship between such training modalities and said "results".




I'm afraid Eyrie that's just not true. Although I do not know of any specifically martial arts studies, there have been a number of studies into the relationship between arousal levels and sporting performance. Here is just one article which mentions a study linking mental toughness under stressful conditions to higher performance.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-psychology.html

I have seen other studies even more specific to the question, but I can't find them right now.

I personally think that fileboy is perfectly entitled to bring up resistance training as a point in his argument. You could have responded that if an Aikidoka trains effectively then he will be just as effective as a effective training judoka. You did not. That leads me to believe that you think that low or no resistance training is effective as a replacement for high resistance training. It is better to say that low intensity training has its place, but without high intensity training it will not produce good results.

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#235506 - 10/31/06 09:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I'm afraid Eyrie that's just not true. Although I do not know of any specifically martial arts studies, there have been a number of studies into the relationship between arousal levels and sporting performance. Here is just one article which mentions a study linking mental toughness under stressful conditions to higher performance.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-psychology.html





Well, the article is talking about "mental toughness" and its relation to sport performance. If you're talking about "intensity" as in level of physical exertion, as one of the parameters in the Hull study, then perhaps. But I don't think that's what being implied in fileboy's argument.

Quote:


I have seen other studies even more specific to the question, but I can't find them right now.




Do....please.

Quote:


I personally think that fileboy is perfectly entitled to bring up resistance training as a point in his argument.




Of course he is. But I don't have to agree with it. Which is precisely why I'm questioning it. I'm suggesting that if he doesn't understand the training paradigm in aikido, then he is not in a position to argue its merits or otherwise.

Quote:

You could have responded that if an Aikidoka trains effectively then he will be just as effective as a effective training judoka. You did not.




Define "training effectively". What does that mean? Does it even consider that the training goals may not even be the same?

Quote:


That leads me to believe that you think that low or no resistance training is effective as a replacement for high resistance training.




Well, NO. You're way off base. How did you make that connection???? I'm not debating that low or no intensity training is an effective replacement for high resistance training. I'm debating fileboy's assertion that high resistance training = more effective art. I want to know how he made the logic leap and arrived at that conclusion, when there are no studies to back that up.

That's WAY different to saying high resistance training = better performer. Better training method => better performer I can accept. But to make the leap from better performer = better art is a non-sequiter.

Quote:

It is better to say that low intensity training has its place, but without high intensity training it will not produce good results.




Well, NO. That's possibly a factor, but that has yet to be established by documented research. It also discounts other factors such as strategy, and creativity. An athlete might be better conditioned through "high-intensity" practice, but there are many ways of achieving the same thing. Shugyo (austere training) comes in many forms. Some more subtle than others.

So far, I have heard nothing but ignorant conjecture. When you have something more quantifiable or even qualitative in the way of any sort of established research analysis, I'll wade in.

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#235507 - 11/30/06 11:51 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
If you want to compete, hurt people, get hurt yourself, feel powerful and important, feel angry and frustrated, win trophies, lose matches, etc; then Judo, or just about any other MA is the one for you. Hope this helps - truly. -Belvy

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#235508 - 01/04/07 11:11 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: belvedere]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
belvy,

Yes, and so-o true. i would get a tremendous headache after TKD ( they allowed me to spar as a white belt b/o prior MA experience, plus the fact that the sensei, a police officer and a tough guy, was unable to get out of my nikyo finish ...I know shouldn't have used aikido as a test there, but couldnt resist...and in ju jutsu, I felt like we were playing cops and robbers.... fake-fake-pretend -pretend kata..!! they had 3 million belt levels, all of which required money to achieve, ( buy the belt, take the 'requred ' classes..) get this, they called themselves " AMerican Ju jutsu"!! implication>> american is better and more acceptable than japanese jujutsu...

sorry to digress...

in aikido , even at the low level, we all practice resistance , hard and " soft" so that we feel " connected"... this enables us to fully understand the technique.... watching a jujutsu technique in that class where they had no idea of the aikido idea of " connection with uke" was like playing< cop and robbers> nice if you're 9 yrs old and have a playdate! bang bang, I shot ya! O ya didn't YES I did...and so on and so forth...

Additionally this concept of resistance and connection with uke is also supplemented by " in motion " techniques which practice anticipation. there is no other MA that so explicitly and overtly emhasizes and practices anticipation.

additionally, we fall into the mat. hard. we slap the mat hard to break the fall. so yes, we have no strikes against peolpe. but we CAN strike back, with anticipation and speed...you learn that when your head is rapidly heading towards the mat from a shihonage fall...believe me, there is brute strength in aikido I can anticipate a punch, because I have been anticipating this kind of "moving mat" and risking my neck for 10 years. I'm getting tired of people who don't think aikido is "tough"... I've explained myself time and again in my threads... go ahead, please read em all.

it is of course good to supplement your understanding with other arts, but aikido should be the main one. competition is somewhat good...see dud's comments about judo and his son...but the repetition of aikido movements does better.

as an anectdote about aikido's effectiveness>> my sensei liked to drink after class. we as ukes and uchideshi had to buy the drinks. but he always sought out the seediest trucker/redneck bars, drink a lot, and make a lot of noise.flirt with the barmaids.. This 5'1" japanese guy had NO fear. and guess what.. he's never had to use his technique. it's not that he was bruising for a fight, but it was certainly amazing to see him doing this. I had grown up in a blue collar community ( no offense, blue collar is just fine) and was frequently picked on, for being who I was, an asian. Without having seen this, I would still be a little intimidated by these situations. THANK YOU SENSEI !

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