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#235488 - 10/26/06 08:12 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
On the contrary, I am rather enjoying this debate. In fact, I anticipate with baited breath for you to show me some REAL evidence, and I challenge you to do so.

I'm a very open-minded person. Opinionated, perhaps, but open-minded enough to see another's viewpoint.

So far you haven't even got a cogent argument, and I'm still waiting to see if you can forumlate one that will convince me otherwise.

When you're ready to revise your non-sequiter argument and dispense with the ad-hominems, let's debate!

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#235489 - 10/29/06 01:21 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: bin]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I don't mean to be an ass but this is my honest opinion. A lot of Aikido seems to be unrealistic. *braces for ultra-flaming* Let me explain why:

1. Am I suggesting Hapkido is bad too? No. Hapkido has what Aikido lacks. Hapkido has a comprehensive striking program as well as low kicks, sweeps, and takedowns. Aikido does none of these.

2. Aikido's "circle of energy" thingie or whatever the theory used to throw people with a flick of a wrist can be applicable but at times seems to be farfetched. Aikido's "circles" are too large. Smaller circles such as the ones found in Aikido's predecessor, Aikijujitsu or even Hapkido are more practical.

3. This is just me but I always picture Aikidokas as these peaceful people. Is there anything wrong with peaceful people? Quite the contrary.. But reality is that in a fight, aggression is key. Aikido seems to be lacking in the aggressive offensive attacks department.


me if you wish..



Although brief, I like your mention of Aikijujutsu. My write in vote would have to be for AJJ.

Aikijutsu and Jiu Jutsu were the original unarmed combat systems of the Samurai, and are the two of the oldest unarmed combat systems in Japan. Aikijutsu (or Aikijujutsu) is best known as the parent art of modern day Aikido, which was created after World War II.
_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#235490 - 10/29/06 01:16 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie, let me try coming at this another way.

What makes you beleive aikido is an effective martial art?

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#235491 - 10/29/06 06:13 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Interesting debating technique... You're not going to get out of it so easy. You put forward the argument that it is not effective and I have rebutted it. Now you have to rebutt my rebuttal and put forward another compelling argument.

If you've read my bio, you'll know that I have done several different arts. The training method in each of these arts are slightly different, some of the applications are more overt (like jujitsu and arnis), whilst others are moderately discernable (e.g. karate), and some are mostly obscured by the training method (e.g. aikido and taiji).

Each art is unique, but the brutal applications are both visible and hidden in each, to varying extents. To the casual observer, an art practiced as a choreographed dance, might look ineffectual, but to the discerning eye, the devastatingly and deceptively simple martial applications are there for the taking.... providing that one knows what to look for. IMHE, the ones that look like a dance ritual are usually the more devastatingly brutal ones... e.g. silat.

It's a integral part of many East-Asian arts, where "learning to steal technique" is the de rigeur teaching modality. So, what is shown and demonstrated is quite often the omote version - i.e. the surface level technique. It is up to the student to discover the ura of the technique - i.e. what lies hidden just below the surface.

In Japanese culture there is this cultural construct of soto (outside) vs uchi (inside). Unless you are immediate family, or Sensei's golden boy, everyone else is soto - and only insiders are privy to the inner workings of the art.

That is not to say that even though you are an outsider, you would be condemned forever without learning the true art. If you were talented enough, you could probably figure it out yourself. Many have done so quite independently of whatever formal and informal teaching they may have received. This is all part of the "traditional" (and very Zen-like) teaching methods. As I recall, Takeda never showed Ueshiba everything, and likewise, Ueshiba never showed his disciples anything - they all had to work for it.

The sad fact is, many martial artists (not just aikido), are stuck at the outer level stuff - the omote. And because they are not uchi deshi (inner circle disciples), they are never shown the ura - the "real stuff" that makes the techniques work. But every once in while, someone works it out on their own....

So, in answer to your question, what makes me think that aikido is effective? The answer is simple. From all the years of being an outsider, learning to steal technique, I can see the potential of the art and I understand why aikido is practiced the way it is. It is merely a training method for attaining certain body skills - not unlike any other martial art. And from my experience with other martial arts, I can see the parallels, similarities and distinct differences.

In short, it's not the art that's ineffective, but rather the person's relative skill or ability in applying the art. I have sparred with TKD players and karateka, rolled with jujitsuka, pushed hands with taiji players, and duked it out with escrimadors. There's good ones and then there's not so good ones.

But to label an art as ineffective, because the skill level of certain individuals is below your standard, is to ignore the fact that some are simply better than others. Some have better body skills than others, and are better able to utilize them accordingly.

Now it's your turn... you say it's ineffective, now stand by your argument and say why you believe it is so.

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#235492 - 10/29/06 09:42 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< That is not to say that even though you are an outsider, you would be condemned forever without learning the true art. If you were talented enough, you could probably figure it out yourself. >>
Sorry to butt in on a very interesting discussion. This quote would have been great information to me six years ago when I transferred to a "traditional" school. After two years of complete ignorant frustration I gave up trying to learn the "deep" part because I did not know it existed.

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#235493 - 10/29/06 10:20 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Like I said, it's only a "secret" if you don't know. The problem is, no one will tell you what that is. Not because they don't want to... it's because they can't. It's something you have to discover for yourself. The thing about the Truth is that you can't tell someone about the Truth. People will only comprehend the Truth when they realize the Truth. The last time someone spoke of the Truth, they crucified him.

One of the most frustrating things about the "traditional" way is that nobody tells you anything. They wait to see if you can work it out. When sensei ignores you or says "yes, that's good", it usually means, in the most polite fashion, "keep working at it....(coz you stink)". When sensei is harsh and severe, it means you're REALLY getting sensei's attention, and it would be UNFORGIVEABLE to disappoint sensei.

The other issue is that it's not something that can be told to you. It is something that you must personally experience. It is part of your journey. As I said, very Zen-like.

I tell my students a lot of stuff... coz I know that 6-10 years from now, they might suddenly realize what I have been saying all along. And I always show them stuff that is several levels above their current ability, so that they may one day realize that's what they're working towards.

My only advice is don't give up. Keeping training. Keep working the "basics", and by that I don't mean kihon waza. I mean go deeper into the basics. Look beneath the surface. It's all hidden in plain sight.

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#235494 - 10/29/06 11:18 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
SouthernTiger Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 13
Loc: Olympia, WA
Fileboy2002 - Since you seem to be saying Akido is ineffective... Do you think Aikijutsu (or Aikijujutsu) is an ineffective martial art, too?
_________________________
...the Tiger is known for its ferocity & power, as well as agility & elegance.

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#235495 - 10/29/06 02:51 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: SouthernTiger]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The best way to determine if something works is to get out on the floor and try it. I've had a lot of people who thought what I was teaching was "very basic" until they tried to make it work themselves, and on the other hand, I've had people tell me how complicated something was, and be able to work through it very quickly.

Effectiveness is in the eye of the beholder, and the arguments in jujutsu are usually settled when somebody hits the floor.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#235496 - 10/29/06 05:38 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: wristtwister]
aikiuke Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 144
Loc: Illinois
Can this thread die now?

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#235497 - 10/30/06 03:32 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: SouthernTiger]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
No, I do not consider Aikijutsu ineffective. But Aikijutsu, despite sharing roots with aikido is a very different animal.

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