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#235478 - 10/21/06 11:10 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
IOW, you have no personal experience to speak of?

The assertion that a singularly skilled "fighter" in Aikido proves your claim is non-sequiter. The corollary to that argument is, does a singularly skilled fighter exist in any one art?

Yes, they were all skilled in other martial arts, but why did they end up teaching Aikido and not some other martial art, if Aikido is "ineffective" and not "real world" based?

Besides, Ueshiba did not have "many years" training in jujitsu (or any other art for that matter). If anything, his training over his entire lifetime was at best sporadic.

So I'm still not clear how you can definitively assert that judo is better? On what basis?

It's kinda like saying TKD sux stagnant pond water without having done TKD. When it should be more like, that person's understanding of [insert MA] is somewhat lacking, rather than [insert MA] sux.

Otherwise, such comments invariably end up as "one art is better than another" flamebait...





Edited by eyrie (10/21/06 11:26 PM)

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#235479 - 10/21/06 11:23 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
I think what fileboy is trying to get at is that before the students were dispatched to the aikido schools they all had a solid foundation in Judo, so when at the aikido they could have possibly applied a lot of their knowledge of judo to aikido.

I'm not saying anything against Aikido though, just trying to clarify what I think fileboy was trying to get across. I actually think Aikido looks like a pretty effective art against multiple attackers.

Out of the three : Judo, Jujutsu, and Aikido I would personally go with Jujutsu because it was bred on the battlefield for the battlefield although some of it may be technical wish-wash you find that in most arts, and the stuff that "works" you know works because the feudal warriors of Japan ( samurai ) used it and they seemed to fair quite well with it.

That is just my opinion though, and as I am attracted to the brutality of Jujutsu it makes my opinion Bias. I did study Judo for a short period, and it was a very fun art. In my class we did do a lot of chokes, and armbars but they were all on the ground ( which I didn't like to much but you may )

As for Aikido I don't know much about it, but in 2 months or so a man from Serbia is coming to work with my father he is supposedly very well versed in Aikido & aikiijutsu, and I may be getting personaly instruction from him ( should be good to from what the other Serbians at my fathers work say Serbia is a warzone, and well... the guys still kicken so he must know somethin.)

good luck with whatever choice you make.
_________________________
"Using a spoon to row a boat is clearly the act of an idiot." Cord

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#235480 - 10/21/06 11:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
eyriw,

I have no ideas what "IOW" means, but I will assume you are asking about my "personal experience" with aikido. From the way you phrased it earlier, I take it you feel only aikido practioners are qualified to weigh in on aikido's effectiveness. That is convenient, as it disqualifies aikido's critics automatically.

But since you asked I have 23 years experience in TKD and 10 in Judo. I have practiced with aikido stylists from Illinois, Texas, California, New York, and even Mexico. Not one was able to hold his own against me nor any other martial artist I travelled with. Not one. I consciously sought out aikido practioners because those who could not effectively defend themselves all assured me that "somewhere" I would find "real" aikido master who would make short work of me. I am still looking.

I explained already what my basis for asserting Judo's superiority is:

"Judo practioners train under intense, realistic conditions and engage actively resisting opponents as a regular part of their training. Aikido practioners do none of these things."

I suspect I could say this a hundred times in a hundred different ways and you might still not hear it. Aikido is less a martial art than a martial religion, and its longtime practioners are True Believers. They can no more be convinced of aikido's flaws than the Pope could stop being Catholic.

Does a singularly skilled fighter exist in any one art? Absolutely. Many skilled fighters have studied karate, boxing, judo, etc., and nothing else. But my point was that the "great fighters" you named all came to aikido as adults after extensive experience with other (read: real) martial arts. Thus, it was likely that they came to aikido as skilled fighters; aikido did not make them so.

As far as Ueshiba is concerned, here is something he once said about his MA journey:

"Suddenly, the ground began shaking. A golden vapor wafted up from the ground and enveloped me. I was transformed into a golden image, and my body felt as light as a feather."

Forgive me if I regard this man as more New Age mystic than martial artist.

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#235481 - 10/22/06 12:15 AM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
IOW = In Other Words

Interesting to note that "Japanese" is not in the veritable list...

I am in no way suggesting that only aikido practitioners are qualified to critique the effectiveness of aikido, but some personal experience goes some way toward clarifying the position you are taking.

Whilst I agree that some aikido practitioners might regard the art as more a philosophical and spiritual practice, I would also suggest that the ones that can't defend themselves out of a wet paper bag are the same ones that subscribe to the peace, love and harmony New Age mysticism.

But, it still doesn't answer the question, if aikido is ineffective compared to judo, why did Kano say what he said about aikido being his ideal budo? Why did he send his top students to learn from Ueshiba? Why did they then turn around to teach aikido and not judo?

The man may have been a mystic shaman, but he must obviously have had some skill, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to learn something from him and made it their own. Wouldn't you agree?

Training in a specific modality is one thing, just as you suggest that training in an alive, realistic scenario is another. However, to say that such difference makes one better or more effective over another is naive at best, and displays an overwhelming lack of appreciation of the deeper aspects of the arts. And certainly, what is shown publicly is usually not the perception of "reality". Perhaps the aikido stylists you went up against weren't shown the "real" stuff?

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#235482 - 10/22/06 09:18 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
Honourah,

I just thought of a reason not to take aikido, and take judo or jujutsu. From what I have heard Aikido is an art that takes a very long time to become proficient enough to defend yourself with. If you are looking for self-defense Aikido might be good in the long run, but Judo, or Jujutsu would be good if your looking for something you will be comfortable to use within a year or two ( not saying youd be accomplished, but a few techniques should feel natural by then )

From what I have heard Aikido can take 5 or 6 years just to feel comfortable using the techniques in a self-defense situation ( although this depends on your aptitude for an art)

I could also be completely wrong; I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.
_________________________
"Using a spoon to row a boat is clearly the act of an idiot." Cord

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#235483 - 10/22/06 10:06 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: kyokushinkai]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
An excellent point, and a good reason not to.

As it is currently taught in most mainstream styles, I would have to agree that anywhere from 5-8 years on average, is required to reach a basic level of competency. However, if the necessary body skills are taught up front correctly, I would say 2-4 years depending. AFAIK, few in mainstream Aikido teach proper body (taiho) skills - the very same (if not similar!) body skills found in many other martial arts.

After all, few people are likely to invest in boring old BASICS, when they want to be able to do the cool [insert fav. MA actor] moves up front, without all the necessary body skills that the basics provide.

Obviously, the more experienced one is in dealing with certain types of situations, the better one gets at dealing with similar types of situations. This generally applies to a wide range of things.

But then, MA is a lifelong pursuit... it's not something that you do in 3 years, 3 months, 3 weeks or even 3 days and then unrealistically believe you have the skillz to beat someone's a$$.

Irrespective of which art you choose, it should (ought to?) be something that changes the way you move and respond, and invariably, it changes who you become - everyday - i.e. you HAVE TO do this every day, every moment for the rest of your life.

So doing something is better than no training at all.

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#235484 - 10/23/06 01:45 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Quote:

Perhaps the aikido stylists you went up against weren't shown the "real" stuff?




This statement plays to the most threadbare cliche in all of martial arts, which I call The Myth of Secret Knowledge. The myth runs like this: sure, all the of practioners of art X you are actually likely to run into couldn't fight off a pack of angry poodles. However, somewhere (preferably on some remote mountaintop or faraway tropical island) are the "real masters." The guys know the "real" art, understand its deepest secrets, and can quickly reduce anyone to a crimson stain on the wall.

Right.

BTW, this myth is by no means limited to aikido. I once asked to train--not fight, mind you, just train--with a kung fu stylist in Chicago. He told me his instructor had forbidden his students to train with anyone outside their kwoon (gym). The reason? The art in question was supposedly so deadly that its secrets had to be prevented from falling into the wrong hands!

God help us.

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#235485 - 10/23/06 07:40 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, it is a secret if you don't know...

So, what you're saying is that the Myth doesn't apply to Judo? Well, it's the same thing when Kano reorganized Kito-ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu to formulate Judo and promoted the myth that Judo was superior to jujitsu, by way of contest.

If Judo was so superior, why did he use ring-ins like Shiro Saigo, an Aizu clansman (who would have studied the Aizu battlefield arts, like, hey, aikijujitsu!) to win bouts?

Even so, the myth of Judo's superiority was crushed when it suffered defeat against the Kosen-ryu in 1900.

I'm not saying that any one particular art has "th3 s3cr3t d34aly" knowledge. I'm merely suggesting that perhaps some are not privy to the "inner knowledge", whether that be thru being accepted into the "inner circle", or thru self-realization as Kano (or Ueshiba and many others) did.

The issue is not whether an Art is effective or not. It's whether the person's interpretation and understanding of what the Art offers is effective. On any given day, one person might be better (or luckier) on that day, at that precise moment, than another.

BTW, I'm merely having an intellectual debate with you. I'm not taking personal stabs at anyone. Just in case you hadn't realized.... I have no personal stake in Aikido - it's just my preferred way of practice. There's good and bad in most Aikido, just as there is in everything else.

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#235486 - 10/25/06 07:22 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Eyrie,

I am curious to know what kind of evidence would you accept as demonstrating aikido's limited effectiveness?





To be blunt, I'm not interested in any evidence that you can prove of aikido's (or any other martial art's) effectiveness or otherwise. Likewise, I am not interested in convincing you (or anyone for that matter) of aikido's (or any other martial art's) effectiveness or otherwise.

Besides, the forum rules specifically prohibit any debate regarding the effectiveness or superiority of art X vs art Y. At this point, I am only debating your claims regarding Judo's effectiveness compared to Aikido. Subtle difference, but distinct from an X vs Y debate nonetheless.

Anyone with any standing here on this forum will tell you it's not the art that's defective, but the person applying the knowledge of the art. But we already know your stance on the matter. Which is rather contradictory, given your stance on the Myth of Secret Knowledge in the Arts, yet, here you claim that one Art is better (superior or more effective) than another, thereby implying that one Art is privy to certain knowledge (secret or otherwise) that makes it so. Like I said, it's only a "secret" if you don't "know".

I will agree, however, that there are many ineffectual aikido practitioners out there, and I will agree that most aikido is a shadow of its former glorious past. I will also agree that there are few in the current generation of aikido teachers that have reached the level of skill of such people as Tohei, Shioda, Tamura, Shirata, Yamaguchi, Saito, Yamada, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Abe and others, none of which presumably reached the level of Ueshiba himself, but are skilled nonetheless, in their own right.

I am talking about attaining a level of skill such that you cannot be pushed over, locks don't work on you, strikes bounce off you, or disappear into emptiness. It's attaining a level of skill to be like an empty jacket, or immovable as the mountains. It's not esoteric airy fairy BS, it's out there, and there are a few who can do this and do it well. Not just in aikido, but in many other internal martial arts.

You could substitute the word aikido in the preceeding with any other martial art you like, but the fact remains that these body skills are the foundation of jujitsu, judo, aikido, taiji, xingyi, bagua, and yes, even karate.

If you wish to continue this debate, then by all means, show me some evidence other than the flawed logic that:
1. person A doing art X vs person B doing art Y engage in physical contest
2. person A wins
3. therefore art X is more effective

Understand that I am only questioning the logic of your argument.

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#235487 - 10/26/06 01:20 PM Re: Judo or Aikido (Please vote for one) [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Sorry--I seem to have really hit a nerve here.

Your response clarfies things: no evidence of any kind would influence your thinking one bit.

happy aikidoing.

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