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#234958 - 03/14/06 02:25 PM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I, like you have heard lots of different stuff about the roots of MT (there is another art called Krabi Krabong that you didnt even mention, that has something to do with it as well, to what I know of). For some reason we in the west have been quick to oversimplify MT and its lineage based on our only exposure being 'sport' MT. We have known it as 'the mean one with the elbows' for years, yet it has as long and diverse an evolution as any cultures fighting arts. There are hundreds of years of evolution distilled into the ring art, and I look forward to gaining a better understanding of it through Taisons post (no pressure Mr T )
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#234959 - 03/15/06 06:18 AM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: Cord]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand

I look forward to gaining a better understanding of it through Taisons post (no pressure Mr T )

Hahahaha, no pressure. Almost there. I thought about maybe this friday.

-Taison out
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

#234960 - 03/15/06 07:32 AM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
ok, I will try to explain so you understand a little bit more.

Muay Boran is a vague term that means "ancient boxing". Now under this name there are Muay Lopburi, Chaiya, Korat, Kochasarn, and Nakorn. Well, these 5 share only 2 similarities they utilize the whole body and fight with bound fists.

Technique wise all 5 of them are different. Chaiya possesses a more lower center of gravity and favors machinegun like punching where as Muay Korat utilizes strength and many tackle like techniques. Muay Kochasarn doesn't even look like the rest of the group, the closest thing you could get to it would be judo or aikido.

Lopburi is the father to modern sport MT. It was trained much in Lopburi and Bangkok during the early 1900's when suddenly these boxers were introduced to Queensbury boxing from Thai soldiers who went to Europe during WWI. Many boxers adopted this queensbury guard and practiced it at the same time as they did Muay Lopburi and gave birth to Muay Thai.

The other arts were practiced quite a lot until the bound fist rule was dropped. Many coined for Muay Thai to be national sport as Muay Boran wasn't exciting and too brutal.

Today, you can still practice Muay Korat, Chaiya, Kochasarn [now a part of Lerdrit] and Muay Thai. The rest has been preserved but not practiced by many.

Here's another thing I don't like. Many say, Krabi-krabong is the system where MT originated from. Well, Muay Boran came before Krabi-krabong. MB dates back to the beginning of the Tai civilization living in China. Krabi-Krabong was developed during the Ayudhaya era. Many say the Sukhothai era but that system was called Ling-lom, which is working with sword and shield whereas Krabi-krabong is more towards dual swords, saber and staff[similar to bo]. Look, Krabi-krabong even utilizes the same foot-work as Muay Lopburi.

1"PM, MT is totally different from MB. The people you have talked to in other forums only have studied MT or Krabi Krabong, and they claim they know everything where you can see that MT and MB share little to no similarity except striking. I hate when foreigners come to Thailand, learn Krabi-Krabong and say they know Muay Boran when they haven't even learnt a thing about it.

Currently, there has been no foreigner that has learnt Muay Boran, nor has there ever been a "real" foreign MT champion as I have yet to see a foreigner fight in either the Lumpini or Ratchadamnoern and become champion there.

-Taison out
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

#234961 - 03/15/06 02:04 PM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: Taison]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England

Thanks for the info man .

Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/15/06 02:06 PM)

#234962 - 03/23/06 03:40 PM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
PhilDunlap Offline

Registered: 05/07/03
Posts: 25
I think one of the problems with Martial art history is that people repeat what they have heard in the past as if it was gospel. Many stories I have seen are simply untrue or someones attempt to rewrite history.

Many books written have no relevence to the real history. There are many variants of the older Thai arts. The bareknuckle and armed systems while bearing resemblance to the ring sport are very different.

In the Near future look for a book to come out called the vanishing Flame by Vincent Giordano covering the anciant bareknuckle traditions of Thailand, Burma, Laos and Cambodia. Vincent has spent much time training with older masters and is himself an ajarn in Krabi Krabong.

Also an excellant research reference on martial arts is Martial Arts of the World an Encyclopedia by Thomas A. Green a noted Anthropologist. Studying the true history and cultural significanse of these arts.

#234963 - 03/24/06 07:18 AM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: Taison]
baby_bwoy Offline
speed merchant

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 240
Loc: london
this question is to taison...ive read that you're from thailand so i feel it better to ask you this...ive trained in muay thai for awhile but only the sporting aspect, but when i watched a fight afew weeks ago, a thai fighter was using some rather 'flash moves', which the commentator said was part of traditional muay thai rather than the sport muay thai that we normally see today...anyways my question is in two do you feel about the progression of mauy thai to the sport that it is now, also is what the commentator said to be true, and if so do you feel that by not using the flash kicks in muay thai that it made it better or has it cheapened the purity of the art..thanks
..Our limits are what hold us back..

#234964 - 03/25/06 03:01 AM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: baby_bwoy]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
My feelings?

Well, to be honest, I still don't know why Thai coaches are holding away most of MT from foreigners. Why is it that when foreigners use MT, only a few get good while you take any Thai with a heart for this art, and after a year he becomes a fighting machine.

There is only one reason why Thai boxers are great while many foreigners never reach that state. Hunger, poverty, family. Most Thai boxers must win their matches, for one loss may mean that they will go hungry for days. They may not starve but still, they will go hungry. There's only one thing in mind when a Thai boxer goes into the ring. Money. Foreigners don't have this rule to their heart thus become just good. Some do become great but very few.

From an art to the sport? Well, I don't like the sport version of MT. Stupid rules, rounds, the ring, the gloves and restriction on technique. That's why I defected to San Shou style kickboxing. If someone knows how to throw, he shouldn't be penalized for it, now should he?

May be true. To be honest, most Thais learn the sport MT. Not by choice but due to poverty. Only a few people will ever learn the Traditional MT. I learnt both by choice.

What do you consider traditional? What is sport? There are two types of fighters in Muay Thai. Muay Kiew and Muay Lak[mainstream].

Muay Kiew are the flashy boxers who uses tricks and feints to lure out attacks so they may counter with devastating blows. They will do what you consider flashy and brutal. They will go far length to open your guard and then finish you off with a flashy move like a flying knee or "chorake fad hang".

Muay Lak are boxers who plays safe, the "wise" fighter who uses his head more than brute force, this type of boxer are the ones you see these days, not much style, plays everything safe without any flash.

Not using flashy kicks? I couldn't care if it was cheapening the purity of the art or not. MT has become more of a sport, not a martial art. I wouldn't be surprised if next year they banned elbows and knees and called it kickboxing. I don't like what MT has become although I study and still train in MT, I don't like the rules, the ring and all the equipment. If I was to decide, I'd say open area like TKD's, MMA gloves, no restriction on technique except groundwork. If you're able to do something, why should you be penalized for it. I mean, no "over-the-shoulder" throws. They are too afraid that MT may turn into wrestling but look at Lethwei, MT's sibling, they aren't having problem with their art turning into wrestling of some kind.

-Taison out
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

#234965 - 02/20/07 12:23 PM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: Taison]
FightingFeet Offline

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 63
Loc: Singapore
Any recommended videos on 'Yaw Yan'? I begin to be interested in it after reading it.
No Matter what, justice must exist.

#234966 - 02/20/07 12:30 PM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: FightingFeet]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Don't know. My exposure to Yaw Yan is limited to a few videos and reading some art bashing that the founder decided was suitable in order to make his "art" seem more "lethal" when imo it's nothing special.

It's basically more or less, stick fighting without sticks and tae kwon do kicking. They're very random when it comes to attack, rushing in like a pull and just punch anything, be it air or opponent. Maybe in another few years, this art will be good. But now, it's still in the developing stage.

But that's imo. Not neccessarily true.

-Taison out
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

#234967 - 05/10/07 04:12 PM Re: Kickboxing Styles! [Re: Cord]
danny81 Offline

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 350
i got these from wikipedia. im surprised there not in here yet. you have some but not all
Adithada (Indian kickboxing) A form of kickboxing that uses knee, elbow and forehead strikes
Lethwei (Burmese Kickboxing) Traditional Burmese martial arts of which has now grown into a popular kickboxing event with strong emphasis on knee, elbow strikes and head strikes. Any part of the body may be used to strike and be struck, Bando kickboxing
Pradal Serey (Khmer kickboxing) A possible predecessor of Muay Thai
Muay Thai (Thai boxing) Traditional Thai martial art of which has now grown into a popular kickboxing event with strong emphasis on knee and elbow strikes
Japanese kickboxing Similar to Muay Thai, but different point system is taken (e.g. K-1)
American kickboxing Similar to Japanese kickboxing and Full contact karate, but different point system is taken
Full Contact Karate Most of the time padding and in some cases body armor is used and is the applicable component of karate like many other styles which also include routines training.
Savate (French kickboxing) Allows the use of shoes
Sanshou/Sanda (Chinese kickboxing) The applicable component of wushu/kung fu of which Takedowns and throws are legal in competition as well as all other sorts of striking (use of arms and legs).
Shoot boxing A Japanese form of kickboxing which allows throwing and submission while standing similar to San Shou
Yaw-Yan (Filipino Kickboxing) Sayaw ng Kamatayan (Dance of Death) is the proper name for Yaw-Yan, a Filipino martial art developed by Napoleon Fernandez. The art resembles Muay Thai in a sense, but differs in the hip torquing motion as well as downward-cutting of its kicks.

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