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#234354 - 03/03/06 11:39 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: schanne]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yestarday a friend of mine who trains in Kyokushinkai and Tae kwondo did several hours of self defense training and probably half of it was knife self defense. I'll tell ya, when it was unarmed vs. knife neither of us lasted more than a couple seconds or maybe half a minute or so when we were outside and had room to move. I would mostly throw hard side kicks and front kicks to keep him at long range and I moved a lot, he did the same. We both got cut to ribbons every time, I mean we did FAR better than the average Joe, since we are both pretty well trained, but even then we didn't "survive" for very long. We would get taken out even quicker if we tried getting close and controlling the knife hand and the knife itself. I had mixed results with the Krav Techniques, some worked and some didn't. When we went knife vs. knife we were pretty well equal, we both know how to fight with knives pretty well, so sometimes I would take him out, or vice versa, and sometimes it was a draw. So I know now that dealing with a knife is EXTREMELY difficult, although not impossible. We also did defense against pistol threats, which worked much better fore the defender. One things for sure this was the best training session I've had in years and it was outside the dojo. We both took our share of bumps and bruises and everything but it was far more realistic than most TMA training that's for sure.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#234355 - 03/03/06 12:54 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
When attacking with the knife, do you and your partner rely more on stabs, slashes or the "ice pick"? Are you pre-planning these attacks or are they random, and if so is the attack based on instinct or strategy? Just asking because i'm interested in how others train with knives.

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#234356 - 03/03/06 08:11 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
A very small portion of the training was predetermined, the vast majority was random chaotic free fighting. Personally, we both have trained enough in predetermined attacking and defending that now we felt it was much more benificial to take those isolated skills and combine them in live training, so we did primairly free fighting as if in a real situation. Now as far as specific attacks, I use an icepick grip most of the time and in that case I'll use a combination of stabs and slashes however I really emphasize stabs because they are just a lot more damaging and effective, but I usaully enter with some reverse slashing techiques and then reverse the direction of the "blade" and follow up with stabs usaully several at a time at different angles, I've also had some pretty good results from using an oriental hold. My partner likes to use and oriental hold, I think that's the more common one with the blade pointing up right and the opposite for icepick, anyway he uses that and does almost all slashes and cuts, I guess he likes that becuase you get a lot more attacks out real quick that way, and actually his favorite method of attack is where he has his blade weiding hand sort of horizontal and held a little high with blade pointing inward towards you and slashes directly from that position and then reverses and and slashes back the other way. So anyhow that's how we do most of our training, and again, we use knife vs. knife, unarmed vs. knife etc. Now we dont use any particular well thought out strategy in knife vs. knife, it's mostly instinct, now when it's unarmed vs. knife I usaully use hard side kicks and front kicks, usually no higher than waist level and often to the legs, to keep my "attacker" at long rang and I move ALOT if there's room. Sometimes I'll try to get in real close in grappling range and clinch while trying to get control of the knife wielding hand but that practically never works. I just kick a lot and move a lot.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#234357 - 03/04/06 08:47 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
In Krav, if your far enough away to kick, your far enough away to run. I would almost rather deal with an attacker with a gun before I would want to deal with an attacker with a knife. If I couldn't run for any reason, maybe I am cornered or I have family with me, then I would defend and attack. First and foremost, you must redirect and control the weapon. Then send your counters, you wouldn't want to be tangled up with an attacker that had a free knife hand. As far as making it realistic, read the post I mentioned before on using head gear and a boxing glove. If your attacker can attack you full speed but you can't counter full speed, and your attacker isn't responding to your counters, it isn't real. If your attacker can go 100%, then you can punch him in the face 100%, that is real. Try it some time with head gear and a boxing glove, your results will be different. The Krav techniques are effective and brutal, they just take lots of practice.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#234358 - 03/04/06 11:42 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Dedicated1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
We would've used that drill but we didn't have any protective equipment with us except for safety glasses. Next time we get together my friend is going to bring all his sparring gear and pads, enough for two ppl so I plan to try that drill then.


Edited by Stormdragon (03/04/06 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#234359 - 03/04/06 01:40 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Dedicated1]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I've always been of the impression that running is the best thing to do if you have the distance myself, but a friend of mine posed an interesting question - isn't it fair to say that giving your enemy your back is almost as dangerous as trying to fight them? Possibly more if they're faster? Naturally this would only apply, if it applies, to single attacker scenarios!

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#234360 - 03/04/06 04:06 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I agree, the problem with running is that if your attacker really wants to do you harm, their not just gonna give up as soon as you take off, their gonna chase you down, now if your in a populated or crowded area, ok, but really it's too dangerous, I'd stand and fight, using long range power kicks, weapons of opportunity, yelling screaming and generally creating as much chaos as possible. Effective self defense really boils down to three principles in my opinion, and htose are Suprise, Speed and Violence of action to create severe chaos for your attacker. Convince them that your too risky a target, and you wont accomplish that through running, believe me. But if your real fast then maybe...
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#234361 - 03/13/06 12:38 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: schanne]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Great question and responses.

I find that many of my students spend way too much time worrying about properly disarming and which takeaway to use etc.... Make the defense and attack the source! If the initial defense is made with an immediate counter and follow ups the issue will be resolved most of the time. Takeaways really should be an after thought. You can take a knife or gun away from anyone who is unconcious!

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#234362 - 03/13/06 06:57 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: PSYOPS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Very good point, you can worry about the takedown after you've incapacitated the opponent and eliminated the threat, that should be priority number one before anything else.And counter attacking immediately after or at the same time as the defense.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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