FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 21 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
AndyLA 3
Zombie Zero 2
Matakiant 2
futsaowingchun 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Eugue Ryu
by
03/27/07 12:06 AM
Recent Posts
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/19/14 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
09/18/14 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432495 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#234344 - 02/26/06 07:12 PM Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed.
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I've had some trouble with some of the knife anf pistol disarms. When doing the knife techniques individaully I usaully use the techniques effectively but when I have my partner attack me randomly at will it's extremly difficult to actually applly the technieus. The attacks are to short, fast and unpreditable so I just cant seem to make them work, or vary rarely at best. Also many of the knife disarms result in getting slashed across the wrist and forearms.(not really, i dont train with real knives or anything). I think for the former it's just a matter of more training and experience, and better reflexes but what about the latter.
Now with the pistol disarms, I have a problem with disarms from the rear, I they either pull the "Pistol away" and fake shoot me, or shoot me right off because i'm too slow. What is everyones experiences with this?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#234345 - 02/26/06 07:58 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Are these skills new for you? Honestly you need to practice these disarms a number of times. I demonstrated both the gun and knife disarms today at the get together. I am no means as good as my instructors..remember the element of surprise will be with you in reality. Regular Mr. Robber is not going to expect someone with your skills. Keep up with the practice. Pick up a rubber knife and gun..and practice at home like I do. My GF and son pull knives and guns on me all the time...it is becoming second nature. It will come to you...trust me..it will. Just practice...practice..practice..

Ask your instructor for additional one on one training if needed.

A year ago when I saw and tried these disarms for the first time...my instructor told me I would not only learn them...I would devistate my attacker..I thought he was

One year later and I am fast and brutal with em...and I am a 50 year old slow old man..
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

Top
#234346 - 02/26/06 08:30 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Ranger is 100% right. You need to work hard towards becoming comfortable and confident with these techniques. However, I'm going to have to do a little naysaying here
I have been spending a lot of time training in knife techniques lately, and although I think KM's gun disarms are probably the most sound in all MA right now, I see huge gaping holes in the knife methods - mainly because of what you're talking about. Knives can suddenly change directions, come at you from fast and frenzied angles you didn't see and open up arteries that will take the fight right out of you in one swipe. I think the KM knife system covers how to deal with the attacker in an effective way, but it doesn't teach enough about the knife itself. In order to understand knife attacks, practice doing them to someone else. If you can, get some basic knife fighting techniques and really attack like you mean it. After counting how many times you contact your partner, you'll see what you're up against.
I personally prefer the techniques in the Filipino martial arts because you learn more about the dynamics of knife fighting and defense. They teach you things like which tendons when severed will cause loss of motor skills or which will bleed like an oil tanker on a reef. You learn how to neutralize an attacker's muscles so you can peel the knife away with ease, whereas Krav will show you how to block and counter strike, but leaves the peel more or less up to you. Above all, you learn how much can go wrong.
The bottom line though, is that knowing any defense against a weapon attack is better than nothing, so keep it up no matter how you do it.

Top
#234347 - 02/27/06 04:31 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
You also need to keep in mind what is actually dangerous about a knife when fighting against it. And what is that? It's point! The edge really isn't terribly dangerous to you unless he's putting a lot of weight and arc behind his cuts, in which case disarming should be easy.

Those short little flicking cuts people are so fond of may not even break the skin and certainly wont cut through any but the thinest of clothing. If you are cut then so what? As long as a major artery isn't damage you're perfectly fine!

My suggestion is this: Get a bunch of old clothes and strap them to something firm but with a bit of give. Go at it with a sharp knife! See what cuts and what doesn't, how deep it cuts into the material etc. Learn what you need to do in order to actually hurt someone (not just cut them, HURT them!). It's surprising just how ineffective many knife attacks can be. Stabs are pretty much always effective, however. Be wary of the point!

Top
#234348 - 02/27/06 05:50 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I do understand where you are coming from, but like I was saying this weekend, most folks training in Defense Arts lack FINE motor skills...so the training starts with GROSS motor skill defenses. A person can alway learn the other defenses later that rely on the fine motor skills..it just easier and faster to start with the ones using the gross motor skills... Does that make sense??
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

Top
#234349 - 02/27/06 06:08 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Subedei]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Subedei -

I hear what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Knife attacks are VERY effective. You have a high intimidation factor, a high probability of serious injury and about a million X factors. And don't underestimate the edge of the blade. In fact, the edge is what's going to be most likely cutiing across your arms - the arteries on top, when cut, will cause you to lose the ability to straighten out your fingers. If the inside ones are cut, you cannot make a fist or hold a weapon. Slashes are also particularly effective on the head, thighs, clavicles and jugular.

Ranger - Yes, completely agreed. My point though, was that I don't see enough thinking going on regarding the X factors. I guess that's why Krav is great to me though. If something doesn't work, you can build on it. I saw a lack of practicality in the knife system, so I integrated (or should say am integrating) knife techniques from the Filipino systems. I will admit that many of these techniques are outside of the range of gross motor skills, and I hadn't really thought about that. But I also like knife tapping just for the sake of doing it, and I think in a life or death situation, it would definitely give me an edge
You get the point

Puns = ...sorry

Top
#234350 - 02/27/06 07:00 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Thanks for your replies everyone, I'll take it all into consideration. Right now I have to train alone a lot of the time because of lack of time, money, etc. so I cant really train at the dojang until april i think so for now I'm just doing what I can. For a beginner to weapon defenses I guess I'm actually doing pretty well, also for training on my own most of the time, I dont have complete failure in live training with weapons, just most of the time. I tend to expect too much too quick, I'm really hard on myself with that, so your're all right about constant practice, and I'm gonna try to incorporate scenarios into my training. It'll just take time and long training.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#234351 - 02/28/06 09:19 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
When we train at weapons it is hard to get the disarm and the defense when your attacker is going at you over and over again. To put a touch of reality into it you have to take it one step further. Try this, the attacker gets a knife/gun. You, the victim, gets one boxing glove on your right hand. When the attacker attacks, you get to defend and punch them in the face. Trust me it changes every thing. In every situation we have done, 9 times out of 10 the attacker forgets he even has a weapon in his hand. That makes the technique a little easier for the victim. If you want to make it even more interesting, do the same as above but also let the attacker wear a boxing glove on his left hand. It's loads of fun and puts things in perspective. Keep at it!
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

Top
#234352 - 02/28/06 03:22 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Subedei]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

You also need to keep in mind what is actually dangerous about a knife when fighting against it. And what is that? It's point! The edge really isn't terribly dangerous to you unless he's putting a lot of weight and arc behind his cuts, in which case disarming should be easy.

Those short little flicking cuts people are so fond of may not even break the skin and certainly wont cut through any but the thinest of clothing. If you are cut then so what? As long as a major artery isn't damage you're perfectly fine!

My suggestion is this: Get a bunch of old clothes and strap them to something firm but with a bit of give. Go at it with a sharp knife! See what cuts and what doesn't, how deep it cuts into the material etc. Learn what you need to do in order to actually hurt someone (not just cut them, HURT them!). It's surprising just how ineffective many knife attacks can be. Stabs are pretty much always effective, however. Be wary of the point!




S,

sorry, I think that you are perhaps intellectually correct here, but the problem with the edge is that getting slashed hurts like hell and bleeds. and when that happens 2 or 3 times, you are pretty much out of the fight and can be finished off.

remember, the terrorists in 911 were using knives that basically had 3 or 4 inches of edge, and pretty much no point.


by the way - I don't know if anybody knows this - one of the first people killed on 911, daniel lewin, was an ex-israeli reconosance vetran, and probrobly had a 6-12 week course in krav. he, apperently, had his throat slashed when he tried to stop an attack while sitting in the front of the plane.

Top
#234353 - 03/03/06 09:26 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Wear a white Gi, have a Uke attack you with a red washable marker, your going to be surprised what your uniform is going to look like after the attack. Your right there is a big difference between what they call static and active self defense training. It's fine to have someone show you a technique but you need to practice it both ways to truly understand how it can be used during a real life situation.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

Top
#234354 - 03/03/06 11:39 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: schanne]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yestarday a friend of mine who trains in Kyokushinkai and Tae kwondo did several hours of self defense training and probably half of it was knife self defense. I'll tell ya, when it was unarmed vs. knife neither of us lasted more than a couple seconds or maybe half a minute or so when we were outside and had room to move. I would mostly throw hard side kicks and front kicks to keep him at long range and I moved a lot, he did the same. We both got cut to ribbons every time, I mean we did FAR better than the average Joe, since we are both pretty well trained, but even then we didn't "survive" for very long. We would get taken out even quicker if we tried getting close and controlling the knife hand and the knife itself. I had mixed results with the Krav Techniques, some worked and some didn't. When we went knife vs. knife we were pretty well equal, we both know how to fight with knives pretty well, so sometimes I would take him out, or vice versa, and sometimes it was a draw. So I know now that dealing with a knife is EXTREMELY difficult, although not impossible. We also did defense against pistol threats, which worked much better fore the defender. One things for sure this was the best training session I've had in years and it was outside the dojo. We both took our share of bumps and bruises and everything but it was far more realistic than most TMA training that's for sure.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#234355 - 03/03/06 12:54 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
When attacking with the knife, do you and your partner rely more on stabs, slashes or the "ice pick"? Are you pre-planning these attacks or are they random, and if so is the attack based on instinct or strategy? Just asking because i'm interested in how others train with knives.

Top
#234356 - 03/03/06 08:11 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
A very small portion of the training was predetermined, the vast majority was random chaotic free fighting. Personally, we both have trained enough in predetermined attacking and defending that now we felt it was much more benificial to take those isolated skills and combine them in live training, so we did primairly free fighting as if in a real situation. Now as far as specific attacks, I use an icepick grip most of the time and in that case I'll use a combination of stabs and slashes however I really emphasize stabs because they are just a lot more damaging and effective, but I usaully enter with some reverse slashing techiques and then reverse the direction of the "blade" and follow up with stabs usaully several at a time at different angles, I've also had some pretty good results from using an oriental hold. My partner likes to use and oriental hold, I think that's the more common one with the blade pointing up right and the opposite for icepick, anyway he uses that and does almost all slashes and cuts, I guess he likes that becuase you get a lot more attacks out real quick that way, and actually his favorite method of attack is where he has his blade weiding hand sort of horizontal and held a little high with blade pointing inward towards you and slashes directly from that position and then reverses and and slashes back the other way. So anyhow that's how we do most of our training, and again, we use knife vs. knife, unarmed vs. knife etc. Now we dont use any particular well thought out strategy in knife vs. knife, it's mostly instinct, now when it's unarmed vs. knife I usaully use hard side kicks and front kicks, usually no higher than waist level and often to the legs, to keep my "attacker" at long rang and I move ALOT if there's room. Sometimes I'll try to get in real close in grappling range and clinch while trying to get control of the knife wielding hand but that practically never works. I just kick a lot and move a lot.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#234357 - 03/04/06 08:47 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Stormdragon]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
In Krav, if your far enough away to kick, your far enough away to run. I would almost rather deal with an attacker with a gun before I would want to deal with an attacker with a knife. If I couldn't run for any reason, maybe I am cornered or I have family with me, then I would defend and attack. First and foremost, you must redirect and control the weapon. Then send your counters, you wouldn't want to be tangled up with an attacker that had a free knife hand. As far as making it realistic, read the post I mentioned before on using head gear and a boxing glove. If your attacker can attack you full speed but you can't counter full speed, and your attacker isn't responding to your counters, it isn't real. If your attacker can go 100%, then you can punch him in the face 100%, that is real. Try it some time with head gear and a boxing glove, your results will be different. The Krav techniques are effective and brutal, they just take lots of practice.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

Top
#234358 - 03/04/06 11:42 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Dedicated1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
We would've used that drill but we didn't have any protective equipment with us except for safety glasses. Next time we get together my friend is going to bring all his sparring gear and pads, enough for two ppl so I plan to try that drill then.


Edited by Stormdragon (03/04/06 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#234359 - 03/04/06 01:40 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: Dedicated1]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I've always been of the impression that running is the best thing to do if you have the distance myself, but a friend of mine posed an interesting question - isn't it fair to say that giving your enemy your back is almost as dangerous as trying to fight them? Possibly more if they're faster? Naturally this would only apply, if it applies, to single attacker scenarios!

Top
#234360 - 03/04/06 04:06 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I agree, the problem with running is that if your attacker really wants to do you harm, their not just gonna give up as soon as you take off, their gonna chase you down, now if your in a populated or crowded area, ok, but really it's too dangerous, I'd stand and fight, using long range power kicks, weapons of opportunity, yelling screaming and generally creating as much chaos as possible. Effective self defense really boils down to three principles in my opinion, and htose are Suprise, Speed and Violence of action to create severe chaos for your attacker. Convince them that your too risky a target, and you wont accomplish that through running, believe me. But if your real fast then maybe...
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#234361 - 03/13/06 12:38 AM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: schanne]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Great question and responses.

I find that many of my students spend way too much time worrying about properly disarming and which takeaway to use etc.... Make the defense and attack the source! If the initial defense is made with an immediate counter and follow ups the issue will be resolved most of the time. Takeaways really should be an after thought. You can take a knife or gun away from anyone who is unconcious!

Top
#234362 - 03/13/06 06:57 PM Re: Weapon disarm trouble, advice needed. [Re: PSYOPS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Very good point, you can worry about the takedown after you've incapacitated the opponent and eliminated the threat, that should be priority number one before anything else.And counter attacking immediately after or at the same time as the defense.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Cord, Dedicated1, JasonM, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga