FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 46 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
THEFOREVERMAN 3
MattJ 2
royal 2
Dobbersky 2
ergees 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#233754 - 02/24/06 03:16 PM 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical'
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
definitions from dictionary.com

Mystical

1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
5. Unintelligible; cryptic.


Mythical

1. Of or existing in myth: the mythical unicorn.
2. Imaginary; fictitious.
3. often mythic Of, relating to, or having the nature of a myth: a novel of profound, almost mythic consequence.


I've used the word Mystical (def #3 & #5) and Mythical (def #2) interchangeably. This causes a bit of confusion and sounds like it's an insult to people of faith.

ex1:
Quote:

thats the physics of what some call 'fajing' power. I like the term 'short power' since it takes the mystical out and makes less room for shistahs.



Clearly, this was meant 'mystical' as in cryptic. It is well known that there are in fact false masters who sell products promoting the claim that they know 'secrets'. and then proceed to reveil these secrets in a deliberately cryptic manner with fanfare and mythological ancedotes. After the listener is 'hypnotized' and awestruck by the claims and tales, next comes the demonstration... this happens to be the same model in which a magician performs an act.

ex2
Quote:


The original question leads me to wonder... how many people quit the martial arts after discovering it doesn't contain the mystical/spiritual element they were expecting? (i.e., chi-blasts, invisibility, etc.)



This is an incorrect use of the term (but I knew what he meant since he gave examples of superpowers). He meant 'mythical'.

ex3:
Quote:

Stop buying into the mystical portion of the kata and thier ancient secret applications. Unless you stil believe in Santa then by all means continue.



This one is a tougher usage to interpret....but not really. obviously, the person who wrote it is being an ass...the tone is a dead giveaway. but looking past that and keeping emotion out of it, I think he was warning against being 'duped'...like described in Ex1.

there have been other uses/misuses of the term, but I can speak for myself when I say that I don't mean it as a slur against people's belief system, but rather against those who purposely use people's naivite for their own gain.

Top
#233755 - 02/25/06 09:14 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thanks for pointing out the difference. I have to say, the term 'mystic' was unfamiliar to me until recently, and I never had any clue that I might be using it inappropriately myself.

I personally don't feel comfortable with this thread as it seems to border on a religious topic...but it's open again.


Edited by harlan (02/27/06 04:51 PM)

Top
#233756 - 02/27/06 08:37 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
It's not meant to be a controversial topic. Let me guide it so it doesn't develop that way....This thread could be about linguistics. Since language very much shapes how we interpret the world, I think it is a valid topic of philosophical discussion.

Dictionary definitions and their use for clearer communication of what we mean when we use them, most of the time, the context determines which definition we are refering to.

It's like the word 'spirit'...it's important to know that one person could see the word as meaning 'enthusiastic' while another person sees it as 'inner self'.

even the word 'meditate'...one person could interpret as 'contemplate', for another it could be 'empty the mind'. Opposite meanings for the same word!

It's the context that further refines which meaning is intended...when the context fails, clear communication often fails.

In a way, this topic has a Zen like quality...we are examining language use by using language.

Top
#233757 - 02/28/06 02:16 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I agree, there is a place for a discussion of linguistics here. In this 'new-agey' world where the terms 'esoteric' and 'occult' (and 'frenzy' )are bandied around, it is interesting to find out what these actually mean...


Edited by trevek (02/28/06 02:18 AM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233758 - 02/28/06 08:41 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Ed,

I have to disagree with the idea that the use of 'mystic' is necessarily
wrong in examples 2 and 3.

If we consider that some people think forms and kata somehow connect one with a spiritual entity (Tao etc) then you could argue for the use of mystic. Likewise, chi balls etc could be seen as some form of esoteric practice which might be considered 'mystical'.

That the stories of chi-balls etc are myths does make the practice itself 'mythical', however, even in the stories they are seen as 'mystic'. Therefore I'd suggest that the believe is of mythical mystic powers.


Edited by harlan (02/28/06 09:02 AM)

Top
#233759 - 02/28/06 08:58 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I had to read your last a few times, good point. ... but we should move on from that though. Heeding harlan's warning, we can make similar linguistic points with less controversial words...

Top
#233760 - 02/28/06 10:06 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

<<Mystical

Somthing involving a magic wand... or simply that which is not explained because of its endless tiny pieces which comprise it.

<<Mythical

A great/silly really OLD story!!!

In context I think most of the really subtle stuff, the hints, the whispers which any of the older Okinawan kata possess have a very real almost mystic aspect solely because there are obscene numbers of factors... which combined in particular ways enable producion of melodramatic virtually "mythic" results.

I certainly agree that wise word choices are extremely important... but I am also a fan of emoticons to add more richness to ones words!
J

Top
#233761 - 02/28/06 10:30 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think the dichotomy comes about when the word is applied in different contexts. The understanding of the word has diminished/warped over time. It has specific religious understandings, and at one point all those martial arts allusions/secrets were also tied to a religious/spiritual understanding of the world. The attempt to find rational and scientific proof of these 'old world' ideas is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and mangling the language at the same time to redefine the result.

Top
#233762 - 02/28/06 10:31 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Ed,

with all due respects to Harlan, I think the matter of 'mystic' and 'mythical' are important and do not need to be associated with 'religion'. If we look at things like ninja's or certain figures in MA and even Buddhism, then we can apply the words to them.

For instance, Bodhirama (sp.) may be viewed as a mystical character, he had esoteric methods and teachings. There was/is an aura of mystery about him which can be called 'mystical'. However, he also has stories told about him. Did tea plants really grow from the place where he threw his eyelids? I doubt it... therefore he is also mythical in some aspects.

This might suggest that mystical aspects create mythical aspects.

Now, as Harlan herself once demonstrated, we should be wary of early teachings which have influenced us and should 'unlearn'. In which case we need to beware of the mythical behind the mystical and, perhaps, search for it to understand and expose it (if necessary).

I'll stick my neck out and risk the Harlanic wrath. If we look at the other thread about dharma combat, might we interpret the master who shouted about the orange, "what is this?", as trying to create some kind of mysticism about an orange? Might he be later elevated to the level of mythical master because he created these illusions that there was something mystical about an outspan?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233763 - 02/28/06 10:42 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
you might be reading too much into things.... The definitions I posted in the opening clearly show that there are various meanings to a word...some words in particular we can be clear in their context when we are sensitive to all of the meanings.
Instead of trying to 'discredit' a few particular words, what I'm saying is focus on the larger picture of communication in general.
If you/we/all can't, then moderators are indeed correct in locking the thread.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga