FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 31 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
William_Bent 1
simonajones111 1
GojuRyuboy13 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#233754 - 02/24/06 03:16 PM 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical'
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
definitions from dictionary.com

Mystical

1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
5. Unintelligible; cryptic.


Mythical

1. Of or existing in myth: the mythical unicorn.
2. Imaginary; fictitious.
3. often mythic Of, relating to, or having the nature of a myth: a novel of profound, almost mythic consequence.


I've used the word Mystical (def #3 & #5) and Mythical (def #2) interchangeably. This causes a bit of confusion and sounds like it's an insult to people of faith.

ex1:
Quote:

thats the physics of what some call 'fajing' power. I like the term 'short power' since it takes the mystical out and makes less room for shistahs.



Clearly, this was meant 'mystical' as in cryptic. It is well known that there are in fact false masters who sell products promoting the claim that they know 'secrets'. and then proceed to reveil these secrets in a deliberately cryptic manner with fanfare and mythological ancedotes. After the listener is 'hypnotized' and awestruck by the claims and tales, next comes the demonstration... this happens to be the same model in which a magician performs an act.

ex2
Quote:


The original question leads me to wonder... how many people quit the martial arts after discovering it doesn't contain the mystical/spiritual element they were expecting? (i.e., chi-blasts, invisibility, etc.)



This is an incorrect use of the term (but I knew what he meant since he gave examples of superpowers). He meant 'mythical'.

ex3:
Quote:

Stop buying into the mystical portion of the kata and thier ancient secret applications. Unless you stil believe in Santa then by all means continue.



This one is a tougher usage to interpret....but not really. obviously, the person who wrote it is being an ass...the tone is a dead giveaway. but looking past that and keeping emotion out of it, I think he was warning against being 'duped'...like described in Ex1.

there have been other uses/misuses of the term, but I can speak for myself when I say that I don't mean it as a slur against people's belief system, but rather against those who purposely use people's naivite for their own gain.

Top
#233755 - 02/25/06 09:14 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thanks for pointing out the difference. I have to say, the term 'mystic' was unfamiliar to me until recently, and I never had any clue that I might be using it inappropriately myself.

I personally don't feel comfortable with this thread as it seems to border on a religious topic...but it's open again.


Edited by harlan (02/27/06 04:51 PM)

Top
#233756 - 02/27/06 08:37 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
It's not meant to be a controversial topic. Let me guide it so it doesn't develop that way....This thread could be about linguistics. Since language very much shapes how we interpret the world, I think it is a valid topic of philosophical discussion.

Dictionary definitions and their use for clearer communication of what we mean when we use them, most of the time, the context determines which definition we are refering to.

It's like the word 'spirit'...it's important to know that one person could see the word as meaning 'enthusiastic' while another person sees it as 'inner self'.

even the word 'meditate'...one person could interpret as 'contemplate', for another it could be 'empty the mind'. Opposite meanings for the same word!

It's the context that further refines which meaning is intended...when the context fails, clear communication often fails.

In a way, this topic has a Zen like quality...we are examining language use by using language.

Top
#233757 - 02/28/06 02:16 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I agree, there is a place for a discussion of linguistics here. In this 'new-agey' world where the terms 'esoteric' and 'occult' (and 'frenzy' )are bandied around, it is interesting to find out what these actually mean...


Edited by trevek (02/28/06 02:18 AM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233758 - 02/28/06 08:41 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed,

I have to disagree with the idea that the use of 'mystic' is necessarily
wrong in examples 2 and 3.

If we consider that some people think forms and kata somehow connect one with a spiritual entity (Tao etc) then you could argue for the use of mystic. Likewise, chi balls etc could be seen as some form of esoteric practice which might be considered 'mystical'.

That the stories of chi-balls etc are myths does make the practice itself 'mythical', however, even in the stories they are seen as 'mystic'. Therefore I'd suggest that the believe is of mythical mystic powers.


Edited by harlan (02/28/06 09:02 AM)

Top
#233759 - 02/28/06 08:58 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I had to read your last a few times, good point. ... but we should move on from that though. Heeding harlan's warning, we can make similar linguistic points with less controversial words...

Top
#233760 - 02/28/06 10:06 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

<<Mystical

Somthing involving a magic wand... or simply that which is not explained because of its endless tiny pieces which comprise it.

<<Mythical

A great/silly really OLD story!!!

In context I think most of the really subtle stuff, the hints, the whispers which any of the older Okinawan kata possess have a very real almost mystic aspect solely because there are obscene numbers of factors... which combined in particular ways enable producion of melodramatic virtually "mythic" results.

I certainly agree that wise word choices are extremely important... but I am also a fan of emoticons to add more richness to ones words!
J

Top
#233761 - 02/28/06 10:30 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think the dichotomy comes about when the word is applied in different contexts. The understanding of the word has diminished/warped over time. It has specific religious understandings, and at one point all those martial arts allusions/secrets were also tied to a religious/spiritual understanding of the world. The attempt to find rational and scientific proof of these 'old world' ideas is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and mangling the language at the same time to redefine the result.

Top
#233762 - 02/28/06 10:31 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed,

with all due respects to Harlan, I think the matter of 'mystic' and 'mythical' are important and do not need to be associated with 'religion'. If we look at things like ninja's or certain figures in MA and even Buddhism, then we can apply the words to them.

For instance, Bodhirama (sp.) may be viewed as a mystical character, he had esoteric methods and teachings. There was/is an aura of mystery about him which can be called 'mystical'. However, he also has stories told about him. Did tea plants really grow from the place where he threw his eyelids? I doubt it... therefore he is also mythical in some aspects.

This might suggest that mystical aspects create mythical aspects.

Now, as Harlan herself once demonstrated, we should be wary of early teachings which have influenced us and should 'unlearn'. In which case we need to beware of the mythical behind the mystical and, perhaps, search for it to understand and expose it (if necessary).

I'll stick my neck out and risk the Harlanic wrath. If we look at the other thread about dharma combat, might we interpret the master who shouted about the orange, "what is this?", as trying to create some kind of mysticism about an orange? Might he be later elevated to the level of mythical master because he created these illusions that there was something mystical about an outspan?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233763 - 02/28/06 10:42 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you might be reading too much into things.... The definitions I posted in the opening clearly show that there are various meanings to a word...some words in particular we can be clear in their context when we are sensitive to all of the meanings.
Instead of trying to 'discredit' a few particular words, what I'm saying is focus on the larger picture of communication in general.
If you/we/all can't, then moderators are indeed correct in locking the thread.

Top
#233764 - 02/28/06 10:49 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I was actually trying to discredit their immediate association with 'religious'.

However, how about 'violent' and 'violence', let's move onto those, shall we?

Are martial arts 'violent'?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233765 - 02/28/06 10:54 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
That is another topic.

Usurping language, 'owning' it via open political agendas, isn't new. Neither is the 'scientific agenda'...one I see as covert revisionism that leads to more problems with dualistic perception.

Ed is trying to highlight the subtle differences, to deepen our understanding of the words...not disassociate the meanings. There are lots of words that exist that are considered 'archaic' and not applicable to modern contexts. As a lover of poetry, and words, I resist the idea of shelving words simply because they are difficult to apply.


Edited by harlan (02/28/06 11:05 AM)

Top
#233766 - 02/28/06 02:45 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Harlan,

We seem to be at cross purposes here. I personally was confused about why you felt this thread was bordering on religious topic. I assumed that the terms 'mystical' or 'mythical' were synonomous with religion. This was my reason for highlighting how they could be disassociated.

My initial point was contesting Ed's interpretation of the words and there useage.

Ed then suggested that we move onto 'less contraversial words', which suggests he too was worried about your own thoughts about the words and their possible association with religion. This was why I suggested the discussion of the words 'violent' and 'violence', as Ed had suggested earlier the possibility of discussing words and their usaeage on a wider field.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233767 - 02/28/06 03:03 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think that this just may be a bad week for me...what with taxes on my mind and other stuff. My mind is all over the place.

Top
#233768 - 02/28/06 03:07 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

lol...
Perhaps harlans initial wisdom of locking it down wasn't so off-base. (Women's intuition?)

sorry...thought it was salvagable. It's getting too abstract now: a thread discussing which language can be used in a thread which disscusses the use of language.


Top
#233769 - 02/28/06 04:44 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed! You were the one that brought that up!

Anyway, are martial arts 'violent'and what is the role of 'violence' in MA and Zen (which I know nothing about)?

I have "violence":a) physical forceintended to cause injury or destruction.
b) natural force
c)passion, intensity

"Violent" urged or driven by force; vehement; impetuous; forcible; furious; severe.

So would something like 'unlearning' be seen as violent through a destruction of previous mind-set?


Edited by trevek (02/28/06 04:51 PM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233770 - 02/28/06 04:46 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hey Harlan,

life is taxing! sadly, so is the government!

_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233771 - 02/28/06 04:55 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I did bring it up the topic...and now my head hurts.

Top
#233772 - 02/28/06 05:18 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed, I meant about 'contraversial words'. However, if you don't wanna play cos I'm spoiling the game then lets let Aunty Harlan lock the thread.

See... Aunty Harlan knew best all along
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233773 - 02/28/06 08:31 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
don't be an ass. tackle this: do you think it's possible for people to convey honest meaning while using an honest context but at the same time are sensitive to possible ways others may read it? It's different from 'political correctness' (before you point that out). It's more like 'social maturity'. Do you see the difference?

Top
#233774 - 02/28/06 11:11 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
There's always going to be somebody offended, are you looking to not offend a majority of the people? the right people? your people?

Not trying to be arguementative, just saying that it's near impossible to be sensitive to everybody.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

Top
#233775 - 03/01/06 02:53 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed, I do indeed see the meaning in what you say. Often I find political correctness tries to please everybody and ends up saying nothing because it has said everything.

I'd argue that 'social maturity' should also allow the other person the status of being mature enough to consider what is being said before getting offended (not suggesting any one did get offended).

If others decide to hijack a meaning and decontextualise then that questions their own agenda.

BTW, nice to see the word 'ass' being used in this way again.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233776 - 03/01/06 04:29 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The masses are asses so pay your taxes with molasses.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#233777 - 03/20/06 07:22 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed, where are you? You called me an ass for suggesting (as you did) that the thread be closed, so when I got my gloves on again you ran away.
Don't you want to play anymore?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233778 - 03/20/06 09:09 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
incorrect. I called you an ass for the 'Aunty Harlan' comment. It showed that since you were getting frustrated with your loosing struggle of trying to be enlightening without being controversial, you decided to go the route of blaming others (an authoritive figure like a babysitter, ie 'Aunty') for your inability to get your point across via any other means other than direct and controversial. I decided to save typing and just write, 'Ass'.

as far as the topic where it left off...what was the question again?

Top
#233779 - 03/20/06 04:36 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ed, while I appreciate your right to interpret things incorrectly I must point out that you are being grossly unfair.

You may recall that the thread was reopened after we approached Harlan, who agreed to reopen it but under supervision that it didn't stray into 'religion'.

You yourself suggested we get away from discussing the words such as 'mystic' and 'mythic' in case the thread was closed down again. My posts were to challenge the notion that these words were automatically synonomous with religion. Perhaps I over laboured the point but it was certainly not a case of being contraversial.

You replied with a comment about maybe Harlan was right to have closed the thread the first time. Then, from somewhere, matters of 'social maturity' came about.

I suggested (maybe too abruptly)that if you didn't want to talk about 'mystic and mythic' anymore we could perhaps discuss 'violence'. This was in fact a serious comment as I would like to discuss the semantics of these words.

My 'Aunty' comment was more in reply to your suggestion that the thread should be closed (certainly not a comment on Harlan herself). You then had the audacity to tell me to 'tackle it'(without actually defining what I was supposed to be tackling. You then withdrew with, it seems a personal insult.

I was not blaming anyone for anything as I saw nothing to be blamed on anyone. It just seemed you didn't want to play anymore and I thought perhaps i'd been a bit rough for you or I'd pooed on the playground unintentionally. As for being 'direct', obviously I wasn't direct enough because my intentions seem to have been misconstrued and (now) misrepresented.

If you want to know the question then perhaps re-read the thread and especially some of your own posts, which might enlighten you as to my responses.

However, should we decide to carry the conversation on (as I'm more than willing to) perhaps we should do it off-forum until we have decided what we are arguing over (as I didn't realise we were) and not risk annoying anyone.


Edited by trevek (03/20/06 05:28 PM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233780 - 03/20/06 09:26 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you win the award for the greatest number of spins in a single post. I'm tired right now, but I'll pick out a doosy to illustrate my point:
Quote:

My 'Aunty' comment was more in reply to your suggestion that the thread should be closed (certainly not a comment on Harlan herself).



Calling a mod 'Aunty' after you are given a warning...only has one meaning. calling a mod 'Aunty harlan' can only be in the pejoritive.



Edited by harlan (03/20/06 10:33 PM)

Top
#233781 - 03/21/06 02:25 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Errm, when was I given a warning? It is news to me.

Aunty was not an attack on the mod, it was a tongue in cheek follow-up to your own suggestion that the thread should have stayed closed. Did it ever occur to you that it was aimed at your "women's intuition" comment rather than the mod?

Perhaps my non-use of emoticons was to blame.

Incidentally, I had also pm'd Harlan earlier to say there were no personal attacks intended.

Tell you what Ed, let's just leave it as I can see this degrading into a cat fight.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#233782 - 03/21/06 06:34 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
a miscommunication no doubt...it happens sometimes and is a large part of what this thread is about - we've both illustrated the point.

Top
#233783 - 05/23/06 01:28 PM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Since Ed seems to be in a debunking mood this week, and Trevek can't resist peeping in once in awhile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

Top
#233784 - 05/24/06 08:15 AM Re: 'Mystical' vs. 'Mythical' [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Must... re...sist. must... not... get...in...vol...ved. Must...lo-o-o-og o-u--t!!!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga