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#233601 - 02/23/06 05:26 PM Soft technique?
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Right, first off I'm fairly new to this jujutsu lark so bear with me.

Can someone here explain when it becomes a "soft" art.

For the last 6 months or so, on and off, I have been going to JJ classes and so far have found the art to be very much a "hard" art.
As an example, if someone swings a big right hook at you you can step in and high block the punch while sliding your right hand round the attacker for a body drop.
This is a fairly typical scenario that we practice with lots of variations, but they all seem to employ some form of "hard blocking" to start with.
Is this a typical way that us beginners are taught that will lead on to "softer" things or should JU-jutsu be called GO-jutsu.
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#233602 - 02/23/06 06:46 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: McSensei]
mukashimantis Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 36
Loc: new york
soft in relation to ju jitsu would not mean weak but rather the use of ki as in aiki ju jitsu.many arts rely on strength or weight. old style jujitsu,that which aikido derived from does not.also ,the more advanced the practitioner,the more ki or "softness" would be used.i don't speak japanese but i believe the translation of jujitsu as soft is a problem in translation to english.hope this helps.mantis.

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#233603 - 02/23/06 08:02 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: McSensei]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Can someone here explain when it becomes a "soft" art.




I've not encountered much hard blocking in my style of JJ. Most of the blocks are similar to Aikido ones, except we employ grabbing at the elbow joint, in the middle of the forearm and on the upper arm, as well as at the wrist. If we do block hard, it is usually to allow us to enter into the clinch more easily.

Besides, Jujutsu is supposed to be soft on you, not your opponent.
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#233604 - 02/24/06 12:55 AM Re: Soft technique? [Re: McSensei]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I wonder if that is correct that it is suppose to be soft for you? I don't see it as a soft art either unless we are talking about some of the grappling techniques where you are suppose to relax and feel your opponents movements and then react. That you don't necessarily need strength but technique. But if this was the case then BJJ is a soft art as well. Very confusing?????

Just to clarify, strength is an important factor besides technique. When I weight lift I don't need to get tense to use my muscle strength to move the weight I just have to use the technique to move it while using that muscle and therefore I don't need to burn myself out. The same goes for the grappling. You can use your strength with technique while relaxing to move your opponent in the direction you want. Sorry ... probably go a little off topic.

Would still be curious to know why a soft art as I don't see it either.
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#233605 - 02/24/06 07:08 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: Dereck]
mukashimantis Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 36
Loc: new york
as i stated above,soft in this instance means using more ki,less muscle.TKD is a "hard" style.it uses more strength.to see the difference,look at a video of mas oyama and one of O sensei.it is then easy to see hard vs. soft.hope this is clear.great question.

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#233606 - 02/24/06 07:48 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: mukashimantis]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Quote:

as i stated above,soft in this instance means using more ki,less muscle.TKD is a "hard" style.it uses more strength.to see the difference,look at a video of mas oyama and one of O sensei.it is then easy to see hard vs. soft.hope this is clear.great question.




When you speak of Oyama and O sensei and their obvious differences I can see where you are coming from. But Jujutsu, it just doesn't seem that soft. I think that the various throws and takedowns utilise this "softness," but not the bridging techniques.
It all seems to start by going clattering in to stop the attack force against force.

Is it just a case that with more training I will be able to blend with the punch and move into a throwing technique in one easy movement? Because that is not what we are being shown at the moment.
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#233607 - 02/24/06 10:58 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: McSensei]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
What is soft? What is hard?

Gozo Shioda's Aikido is said to be harder than O-sensei's. Still, his art is Aikido and Aikido is supposed to be soft.

In my opinion, JJJ is different from person to person sometimes. What you are shown now, I believe will grow softer as your techniques gets better and better. Like in Goju-ryu. At first you block hard, when you reach 1st Dan, the blocks becomes parries accompanied by grabs.

-Taison out
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#233608 - 02/24/06 11:52 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: Taison]
GojuRyuboy13 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 538
Loc: U.S. of A.
You can be really hard by being soft..........

Isn't that the goal..
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#233609 - 02/25/06 12:07 AM Re: Soft technique? [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Agreed.

This hard/soft business, it's just an illusion anyway. In the end, all arts tend be pretty much the same with hard accompanying soft, and soft followed by hard in an ever changing cycle.

-Taison out
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#233610 - 02/25/06 07:36 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: McSensei]
ScottO Offline
de riddim master

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
In translation, Jiu Jitsu is a gentle art.

Gentle in energy, in mind.
Blending, flowing. You won't see two energies opposing each other purposely in JJ. You must learn to blend with energy. Feel it. Be aware of your energy and the opponents's.

Gentle in the way of a 100 lb. female tossing a 215 lb. male through the air without breaking a sweat.

A lot of science is dealt within. You find yourself analyzing movements piece by piece. Everytime you see it, you learn a different ingredient.

Blocking in Jiu-Jitsu has many elements to it.

Coming UP from the ground. Rising into the punch and changing levels. You never want to face an energy dead on. You'll get knocked down. Your hips should face your block. Always move your feet. Tai-Sabaki movements.

It might seem like your fighting the punch. But in reality, you're altering their energy while it's building. In this case, moving it upwards. You're taking their energy, blending with it, hijacking it, and changing the level of it. There are so many ways to do this. Change it to the side. See the punch late, step back, take the energy in and have fun with it. Redirect it. Or just knock them out with their own energy. The attacker always choose his fate. He decides how much pain he is going to receive.


Edited by ScottO (02/25/06 07:45 PM)

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#233611 - 02/26/06 05:21 AM Re: Soft technique? [Re: McSensei]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Soft as in yielding like water or a willow. Not soft as in tofu.

Ummm, maybe it's soft like tofu but not brittle like tofu.... more like firm tofu, not the silken variety.

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#233612 - 02/27/06 06:34 AM Re: Soft technique? [Re: eyrie]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
It would help if you specified what kind of jujutsu you are learning.

Jujutsu is jujutsu because it utilizes grappling moves as opposed to kenpo/fist moves. You might have hard blocks in there but overall the idea is to use very little force to overcome an opponent who may be much stronger than you by using body mechanics against them.

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#233613 - 03/15/06 09:32 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: ScottO]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

In translation, Jiu Jitsu is a gentle art.




I don't disagree with you, but that is only one interpretation of the kanji relating to jujitsu. The one I prefer is ju (easy) jitsu (method). While everyone knows that one interpretation of "ju", it has half a dozen different meanings... as do many other Japanese words.

It explains a lot when you think of jujitsu in that manner, because there are a lot of techniques in jujitsu that I would hesitate to call "soft" or "gentle" in any way, shape, or form. Let me do any one of my 5 methods of doing sankyo on you, and you'll never call jujitsu a soft art again, because I can make it hurt in 5 different places using the same technique. How that's done is by method, not by "gentle"...

p.s. I've been doing jujitsu 43 years. It does get easier... not necessarily soft, but easier.

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#233614 - 03/16/06 06:57 PM Re: Soft technique? [Re: wristtwister]
ScottO Offline
de riddim master

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Everywhere, Nowhere
It wasn't meant to mean gentle or soft on the person receiving the technique. Gentle and soft as in the energy you use to perform them. Also on the mind. You're not as tense when doing an arm bar as your first class.

But yup, I agree in your post.
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#233615 - 03/19/06 11:28 AM Re: Soft technique? [Re: ScottO]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Glad you agree. I don't think, however, that "easy method" indicates anything about "soft" or "gentle". It just means that it's the easy way to get the job done.

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